Altar Girls

[TheMc]

Excuse me but he is the Pope…if he wanted to…he could put a stop to Altar girls…he does not.

There may be a reason for this. I’m not trying to say his thoughts, but rather just my (and a priest-friend of mine’s) thoughts and observations:

This pope has been very keen on not imposing, but he tries to propose. He models the liturgy for us in Rome instead of trying to legislate everything. He’s done this with music, altar arrangements, vestments, and the way to receive communion. Should we expect anything different with altar boys?

 

[PaulinVA]

There are*** very, very few priests*** who, in their past have not been altar servers.

Altar service is not a logical preprequist for Faith, but it is a logical prerequist for priestly vocations.

Brendan, in all brotherly love and a little tongue in cheek, I have to ask you to prove it.

In the past, when most boys were altar servers, you can’t draw any correlation to serving and having a priestly vocation because, well, most served at the altar.

In our parish, most of the vocations and the newly ordained who have been posted were late vocations. The director of vocations in the diocese was an architect before entering seminary. So, in my experience, the call of God to be a priest is much more than simply serving on the altar and thinking, “Hey, this is cool, I could see myself doing this.” It’s a real call that, try as they might, the young men can not ignore.

 

[GraceDK]

Is it inappropriate, no

Grace, the Church has stated that any bishop or priest may reject the use of girls for service in the Mass (a priest may choose to have only boys serve) . In the same letter, the Church has stated that a bishop or priest cannot reject the use of boys ( a priest cannot choose to have only girls serve)

Do you recognize the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this matter as well? It is likewise deserving of applause?

If not, why not?

So if you don’t think its inapropriate then what are you trying to say?
Don’t you think its beneficial to show girls and women that they have a place to serve in the church too? I think its very Biblical and very appropriate.
The Church has judged that there is nothing wrong with using girls as alterservants.

Do I think its worthy of applause if man who moved to town takes his two children to the sacristy and they both like to be alterservants in their old parish, and the priest now says: no, I don’t like to have girls at the alter.
Do you think this will be a good message to send to the girl, to her family, and to the Church in generel?
The church develops… not in a day, but I think that this is definately a good development.
the church does not impose developments on priests… so too the people who wanna go to a Mass spoken in Latin should be given the opportunity but we shouldn’t all be forced to do that.
If I ever have children I will ask them all if they wanna serve at the alter of Jesus because I honestly believe that Jesus would like a girl there as much as a boy… they all need to feel wanted and useful in the Kingdom of God.

This is my oppinion, I have stated it clearly after having read nearly the whole thread. I find no reason to change it, and I am in the company of many holy and good bishops and priests

 

[Brendan]

It’s a real call that, try as they might, the young men can not ignore.

So you would claim that the lack of vocations in recent years is that God is actually calling fewer men, rather than men ignoring the call?

That would be a hard one to justifiy. Especially since our bishops seem to be making efforts to encourage men to investigate a calling ( such as the “Try it On” campaing and the “Fishers of Men” video.

If it was not possible to ignore a call, then why did the bishops invest so much time and effort into these campaigns.

And as to later vocations, that does not preclude them having been altar servers. One of the men ordained from our parish was a later vocation. He was an altar boy, but went to college for an engineering degree and worked as an automotive engineer for 6 years. He left that to join the seminary. But he was still an altar boy first.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

It was celebrated in the ordinary form, but with all of the optional items, such as incense, candles, vimpae for the mitre and crosier, the second lavabo (for bishops), etc…

Here’s the breakdown of the “minimal” group for Sundays at our parish (italicized things are only needed when the bishop is celebrating)

• MC1
• MC2(To assist Bishop)
• Sometimes another MC
• Thurafur
• Boat
• Crucifer
• 6 Torchbearers (some of them also prepare the altar and hold the pattens)
• 2 Vimpae (holds the mitre and crosier)
• Ring tray and zucchetto tray bearer

Here’s how I split up the jobs today:

• MC to assist Bishop
• MC to assist Servers (myself)
• MC to oversee everything, and help wherever needed
• Thurafur
• Boat
• Crucifer
• 6 Torches
• 2 Candlebearers for the Gospel Procession and Proclamation
• 4 servers for the second lavabo
• 2 servers for the communion pattens, prepared the altar, and held the ring tray and the zucchetto tray

That is what our 20 servers did today, and it was a wonderful Mass.

Just wanted to say…
AWESOME!
Praised be our Lord!
:extrahappy:

 

[PaulinVA]

So you would claim that the lack of vocations in recent years is that God is actually calling fewer men, rather than men ignoring the call?

I don’t want this to get into a vacations discussion, but you can not discount the damage wrought by the abuse scandals and the way that Bishops handled the situation. I believe that God is calling men that might not be answering due to this, not because they weren’t altar boys.

That would be a hard one to justifiy. Especially since our bishops seem to be making efforts to encourage men to investigate a calling ( such as the “Try it On” campaign and the “Fishers of Men” video.

They are indeed making an effort to encourage vocations. However, the priesthood has been tarnished. they need to deal with that, as well.

If it was not possible to ignore a call, then why did the bishops invest so much time and effort into these campaigns.

Obviously I am conflicted about this. My comment says that the call of God is strong, but, even then, men sometimes do not heed it. I’m just saying that I don’t think serving on the altar tips them in the direction of accepting the call. I could be wrong.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t want this to get into a vacations discussion, but you can not discount the damage wrought by the abuse scandals and the way that Bishops handled the situation. I believe that God is calling men that might not be answering due to this, not because they weren’t altar boys.

[humor] In light of the abuse scandals, we can all see the advantages of having ALL the boys in the parish serve. With them hanging around in groups of 10 or more, you can be 100% certain they won’t be alone at any time [/humor]

. I’m just saying that I don’t think serving on the altar tips them in the direction of accepting the call. I could be wrong.

It’s one of the most active things a pastor can do though, Most of the other factors are in the hands of God, or in the hands of the family.

The Parable of the Sower (Mk 4:1-25) should be of assistance in resolving your conflict. The call to the priesthood would be like any Grace God cares to bestow. For it to bear fruit, it has to fall on fertile ground.

A parish pastor can only do so much, but MUST do what what he can. That means

• By example and homilies, encourage the families under his care to pray fervently and often.
• giving strong homilies in favor of recognizing children as a gift from God ( so familes are of the size that GOD wishes them to be, and no smaller). Thus there will be more boys in the parish
• And doing what he can to take the boys that God chooses to gift the families with, and use the time he has with them ( Mass, breakfasts with the bishops, retreats at the seminaries) to put them among good seed, and not have the calling strangled out by the weeds that the boy will encounter elsewhere in life.
• Finally, since the pastor is not omniscient, he does not know which boy will be called, or when, so he should expose as many boys as he can to service at the altar. And do in such a way that a boy so called would have the clearest idea of what life as a priest would be like.

To do any less would be a failing, would you not agree?

 

[PaulinVA]

• Finally, since the pastor is not omniscient, he does not know which boy will be called, or when, so he should expose as many boys as he can to service at the altar. And do in such a way that a boy so called would have the clearest idea of what life as a priest would be like.

To do any less would be a failing, would you not agree?

Thanks for the humor!

I don’t think serving at Mass gives one an idea of what life as a priest would be like. It’s not just Sunday (or weekdays) saying Mass.

It’s being confronted by people every time you go out in your collar. It’s going to the bedside of a sick parishioner. It’s running the RCIA program. There are a lot of things that go on that are not Mass. I guess that’s my greatest point - there’s a lot to the vocation of being a priest.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

[humor] In light of the abuse scandals, we can all see the advantages of having ALL the boys in the parish serve. With them hanging around in groups of 10 or more, you can be 100% certain they won’t be alone at any time [/humor]

It’s one of the most active things a pastor can do though, Most of the other factors are in the hands of God, or in the hands of the family.

The Parable of the Sower (Mk 4:1-25) should be of assistance in resolving your conflict. The call to the priesthood would be like any Grace God cares to bestow. For it to bear fruit, it has to fall on fertile ground.

A parish pastor can only do so much, but MUST do what what he can. That means

• By example and homilies, encourage the families under his care to pray fervently and often.
• giving strong homilies in favor of recognizing children as a gift from God ( so familes are of the size that GOD wishes them to be, and no smaller). Thus there will be more boys in the parish
• And doing what he can to take the boys that God chooses to gift the families with, and use the time he has with them ( Mass, breakfasts with the bishops, retreats at the seminaries) to put them among good seed, and not have the calling strangled out by the weeds that the boy will encounter elsewhere in life.
• Finally, since the pastor is not omniscient, he does not know which boy will be called, or when, so he should expose as many boys as he can to service at the altar. And do in such a way that a boy so called would have the clearest idea of what life as a priest would be like.

To do any less would be a failing, would you not agree?

Would the pastor only spend time with the boys? Is that his only job? Is he not our spiritual father? Would that not also include some time with the girls in some capacity to ensure that their spiritual needs are taken care of (not in a priest training) but spiritual needs and discerning their vocation…whether that be to religous life or marriage?

To do any less with be a failing, would you not agree?

 

[MJford]

Thank you all especially Brendan and TheMC, you guys seemed to have presented the best case. Everyone was helpful though. Sorry to anyone who disagrees but Brendan and TheMC were the most logical and posted things to back themselves up. If anyone has anymore documents please post them. I still haven’t seen anything from the Bible. Thanks again everyone.
Peace
Michael

 

[TheMc]

I still haven’t seen anything from the Bible. Thanks again everyone.

A few things to keep in mind when using biblical references in this type of scenario:

1. People will often say things like “Jesus said ‘let the children come to me’, therefore, you should do XYZ at Mass”. You have to look at context. When the Lord said this, he was probably sitting either in a field or in the streets, not in the holy of holies in the temple. He would have never told them to walk into the heart of the temple.
2. If you see something supposedly contradicting a current liturgical norm, follow the liturgical norm every time. Don’t forget that the bible also gives the authority to the church, the ones who makes the rubrics in the first place. The bible is not primarily a liturgical document (at least for Christians). If you want to try and use that argument, don’t forget that no women were allowed anywhere near the holy of holies in Jerusalem.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

A few things to keep in mind when using biblical references in this type of scenario:

1. People will often say things like “Jesus said ‘let the children come to me’, therefore, you should do XYZ at Mass”. You have to look at context. When the Lord said this, he was probably sitting either in a field or in the streets, not in the holy of holies in the temple. He would have never told them to walk into the heart of the temple.

2**) If you see something supposedly contradicting a current liturgical norm, follow the liturgical norm every time. Don’t forget that the bible also gives the authority to the church, the ones who makes the rubrics in the first place. The bible is not primarily a liturgical document (at least for Christians). If you want to try and use that argument, don’t forget that no women** were allowed anywhere near the holy of holies in Jerusalem.

Following that logic…I guess we should be lucky that we are even allowed in chuch…especially during “that time”

 

[TheMc]

I don’t think serving at Mass gives one an idea of what life as a priest would be like. It’s not just Sunday (or weekdays) saying Mass.

At least how I see it, the main point is for them to simply be working with and being with priests at least helps them to possibly think about a vocation.

 

[Spelling]

Okay, let me ask a basic question:

Why is serving at Mass a means to an end, instead of an end to itself? **Why does it have to foster priestly vocations? **

With the way the Church is today, can it simply foster* faith* among the young people?

Because fostering vocations is exceedingly important. No priests, no Eucharist.

 

[Spelling]

One thing that has really bothers me is how female altar servers came about. It was not until 1994 (imagine, 1994!) that the Church definitively said that females may serve Mass based on Canon 230. Yet females had already been serving Mass for at least 20 years prior to that (depending on the location) without approval from the Holy See.

I’m not going to try to second guess the Holy See but it makes my skin crawl to think the Church acquiesced to a blatant liturgical abuse because the Virginia Slims crowd just had to have their way. I also detest the fabricated excuse that there wouldn’t be enough servers if females could not serve. That’s nothing more than odious blarney.

 

[Aramis]

I don’t entirely get the corelation between altar boys and priesthood. Maybe from my own experience. I have two older brothers and grew up yet still in the time when altar girls were not allowed. That was fine by me. My brothers served A LOT!

All of us fell away from the church…of my two brothers…one left the church entirely…the other one is back but is more of a cafeteria Catholic.

I can’t say that serving as altar boys did any good for them…

I’m the one at Mass every day…

I think we would get a higher call to vocations by parents encouraging their sons to be priests if they want to or if they see that in them.

The same could be said for encouraging daughters to be nuns as well.

I and the fellow I ran the altar serving program with both had periods of apostasy; mine was over by age 20; his started later and still isn’t over. (He got in touch with me a few weeks ago…)

Of the 15 girls who served in that time (only bringing the gifts forward, and in extremis, holding the book or the communicant’s patten; never serving at the altar table) at least 2 went into various orders. Several more are married teachers, and still active in the faith. (I’ve encountered them.)

This separate but visible role of prayer and bringing the gifts to the table was very effective. And yes, this predated the permission for girls to serve at the altar… but they also saw the Dominican sisters serving as EMHC’s, Lay Readers, and teachers.

Remember also, not all vocations are to the clerical nor religious states. Many are called to be parents. And some are called to celibate secular life.

And a few, like my father, and like Rev. Fr. Erik Wiseman, and Rev. Fr. Scott Medlock, to both married and clerical life. My dad, as a parent and later a deacon. Fr. Scott to be a married man and a priest. Fr. Erik as a spouse, and only later, after the death of his wife, as a cleric… not until in his 40’s did he enter the seminary!

 

[GraceDK]

Thank you all especially Brendan and TheMC, you guys seemed to have presented the best case. Everyone was helpful though. Sorry to anyone who disagrees but Brendan and TheMC were the most logical and posted things to back themselves up. If anyone has anymore documents please post them. I still haven’t seen anything from the Bible. Thanks again everyone.
Peace
Michael

May I dare to presume that the “best case” for you was consistent with the oppinion you came with?
I found the other posters more logical and consistent. They are in line with what I have observed, what the Church practices (girls as servers) and, well, simply a more positive view of women’s role and potential in the church.

You say no one has referred to the Bible. I did… and its the most weighty argument for me to this day: that at the greatest of all Alters of the Highpriest, we know that 3 women and 1 man were present… I am talking of the Cross.
To serve at the alter - not as priests mind you - is a privilege which Christ didn’t seem to hinder women from. He was the Alter and the Priest and He was in more intimate union with Mary as she gave birth to Him… so we can safely say that a new Covenant has started, where pettiness and favouritism shouldn’t be the norm.
Christ was tended to by women all the time in His ministry.

 

[GraceDK]

Because fostering vocations is exceedingly important. No priests, no Eucharist.

What about fostering the vocations of women:

Priests are hugely important, so are holy mothers and nuns… No Catholic mothers = no future priests.
We need ALL persons in the church. If a parish is full of pride and not welcoming of different persons to take active part in the church life - then that parish will become withered and small and not nice for the priest either.

My best priests, as I said, have both boys and girls as alter servers…Their joy in the Lord, and the appreciation of all these kids in the service is the healthy and humble approach.

 

[GraceDK]

Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV on another thread.
On the contrary, an indult issued by the competent authority (the Holy See) is a PART of the law. Your assertion that it is something “otherwise Ilicit” is spurious. ANYTHING the law permits is by definition licit and what it forbids is illicit. And it particularly does not “stand to reason” in the instance of women reading at the Holy Sacrifice, as this takes place at the Masses of the Holy Father (women commonly take part in the Prayers of the Faithful; Communion is still giving in the hand and in procession, apart from the Holy Father’s own communicants). The practices that you say are illicit are by definition NOT illicit and can be demonstrated by simply examining the indults. You may say you don’t like them, but you’re not competent (nor am I) to declare their licity…only the competent authority (the Holy See) can do so. We can only judge their licity with reference to that authority (and the Holy See has said that women may serve as readers at the Mass, may serve at the Altar where bishops and priests permit it, and that where the indult runs, at this point, most of the world where there are significant numbers of Catholics, they may receive Communion in the hand). As far as the negative infallibility that the disciplines of the Church enjoy, that simply means that they aren’t bad of themselves and that the faithful cannot be lead into impiety by that practice or discipline. Disciplines are morally neutral and they are mutable, they’ve changed throughout the history of the Church. To say that it is morally wrong to receive Holy Communion in the hand (the example you cited), of itself, is to indict, again, possibly the Apostles, certainly the Church in the Patristic period, and generations of Catholics who recieved in that way before the Church modified the discipline. It is also wrong, in argument or discourse with others, to ascribe to the Church the idea that women reading, serving at the Altar, CITH or in procession, etc., is wrong, because you’re A) seeking to constrain someone’s conscience where the Church does NOT and B) it’s simply and demonstrably NOT TRUE.

 

[Brendan]

What about fostering the vocations of women:.

Priests perform their ministry on the altar. Nuns do not.

If one is to emulate the role of sisters there are three options, each corresponding to the three primary charisms.

1. For the Contemplative - spending time in Adoration
2. For the Teaching Orders - operate as a teachers aide in Catechism classes
3. For the Mendicant Orders - assist with charitable projects in your community.

Those are what tend to drive vocations for women and emulate the service of women religious more so than altar service.