Altar Girls

[PaulinVA]

For all who have commented on my “rubbing their noses into it” comment, thank you.

My feeling is that altar boys, altar girls, there is no correlation between serving on the altar and vocations. There are annocdotes, but I haven’t seen any data.

I agree that we all have our places in the Church. I agree that woman can not be priests. My comment came from Bendan,s video, which shows every male in the congregation from 5 to 18 in some sort of vestments processing out of Mass. There is no need for this other than to turn Mass into a vocation machine. There is nothing for all of these boys to do but sit there in the sanctuary and be special.

That is what drove my comment - this is a big deal every week for the boys. For the girls - not so much. It’s not having two or three altar boys - it’s every boy in the place. That’s going overboard on one side to the detriment of the other.

 

[PodunkMommy]

Hi All:

I do not mean to be giving my opinions. These are things I think about too. On the one hand I worry that the girls will take away the desire for boys to be altar boys, yet on the other hand, I wonder if the altar boy role will foster vocations as nuns for girls.

I used to be a lector years ago and after doing some reading I decided that women shouldn’t be on the altar. I have thought there are many things that I shouldn’t be doing or should be but then I may do more research and come to a different conclusion.

It’s all so confusing.

Many blessings to you all.

 

[TheMc]

Oh yea, one other thing my pastor does.

He arranges a regular 'Breakfast with the Bishop" for the older altarboys (16-18) The boys and their fathers are invited to the rectory to have breakfast with a bishop. It might be our bishop or one of the auxilliaries. He has arranged for visiting bishops to come when they are in town.

The last one was with Bishop Sample from the Diocese of Marquette, MI.

He even had Cardinal Arizne over for breakfast with the boys. (the Cardinal was the keynote speaker at our parish’s Lenten Symposium two years ago, so he was there already) I can’t wait until my son is old enough for these

Awesome! I wish I could be there!!

 

[TheMc]

For all who have commented on my “rubbing their noses into it” comment, thank you.

Sarcasm?

I agree that we all have our places in the Church. I agree that woman can not be priests. My comment came from Bendan’s video, which shows every male in the congregation from 5 to 18 in some sort of vestments processing out of Mass. There is no need for this other than to turn Mass into a vocation machine. There is nothing for all of these boys to do but sit there in the sanctuary and be special.

I must say that I didn’t watch the video because of my internet speed, but I MCed Mass this morning, and while we had 20 servers, with a procession as long as the aisle of the church, everyone did have something to do, and it all went very smoothly.

The goal is not to make the Mass a vocation machine. But when it is celebrated reverently and well, and young boys spend time assisting at the altar with other boys and holy priests, it is only natural that they at least think about a vocation. I don’t believe the priesthood is my calling, but I have thought and prayed about it, something that would have never happened had I not been involved in serving.

That is what drove my comment - this is a big deal every week for the boys. For the girls - not so much.

Your point is…

Some girls may think it’s a big deal and really cool to make a weekend visit to a convent. Does that mean the boys should come too?

It’s not having two or three altar boys - it’s every boy in the place. That’s going overboard on one side to the detriment of the other.

There’s nothing wrong with having 20 servers, nor is there anything wrong with having three altar boys on a normal Sunday. There is actually some things you can’t do with three servers. In order to do “everything”, you need at least 9-13 servers. (I’ll give you a break down if you ask) 20 is nice though.

 

[CEM5]

I don’t see anything wrong with females serving God in this aspect. They are not Priests, nor are they deacons, and Jesus had many females who served him.

Phoebe (a female) was called a “deacon” in the Early Church.

Romans 16:1 NRSA
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae,

blessings,

 

[PaulinVA]

Sarcasm?

No, not at all! I was just replying at once to several people, so this is how I started. Not meant to be sarcastic or argumentative.

Originally Posted by PaulinVA forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
That is what drove my comment - this is a big deal every week for the boys. For the girls - not so much.

Your point is…

This is in relation to Brendan’s parish where all boys serve every Mass, sometime up to 70 of them. I guess no one else sees it as strange that it’s just the girls and the married people left in the congregation.

 

[TheMc]

No, not at all! I was just replying at once to several people, so this is how I started. Not meant to be sarcastic or argumentative.

My mistake. Whenever a discussion like this happens, someone sooner or later usually starts being sarcastic without being easily identified as such. It’s nice to have a charitable discussion about such a contentious issue!

 

[Phemie]

I must say that I didn’t watch the video because of my internet speed, but I MCed Mass this morning, and while we had 20 servers, with a procession as long as the aisle of the church, everyone did have something to do, and it all went very smoothly.

May I ask what there is for 20 altar servers to do?? Was it an EF Mass?

 

[TheMc]

May I ask what there is for 20 altar servers to do?? Was it an EF Mass?

It was celebrated in the ordinary form, but with all of the optional items, such as incense, candles, vimpae for the mitre and crosier, the second lavabo (for bishops), etc…

Here’s the breakdown of the “minimal” group for Sundays at our parish (italicized things are only needed when the bishop is celebrating)

• MC1
• MC2(To assist Bishop)
• Sometimes another MC
• Thurafur
• Boat
• Crucifer
• 6 Torchbearers (some of them also prepare the altar and hold the pattens)
• 2 Vimpae (holds the mitre and crosier)
• Ring tray and zucchetto tray bearer

Here’s how I split up the jobs today:

• MC to assist Bishop
• MC to assist Servers (myself)
• MC to oversee everything, and help wherever needed
• Thurafur
• Boat
• Crucifer
• 6 Torches
• 2 Candlebearers for the Gospel Procession and Proclamation
• 4 servers for the second lavabo
• 2 servers for the communion pattens, prepared the altar, and held the ring tray and the zucchetto tray

That is what our 20 servers did today, and it was a wonderful Mass.

 

[Phemie]

It was celebrated in the ordinary form, but with all of the optional items, such as incense, candles, vimpae for the mitre and crosier, the second lavabo (for bishops), etc…

Here’s the breakdown of the “minimal” group for Sundays at our parish (italicized things are only needed when the bishop is celebrating)

• MC1
• MC2(To assist Bishop)
• Sometimes another MC
• Thurafur
• Boat
• Crucifer
• 6 Torchbearers (some of them also prepare the altar and hold the pattens)
• 2 Vimpae (holds the mitre and crosier)
• Ring tray and zucchetto tray bearer

Here’s how I split up the jobs today:

• MC to assist Bishop
• MC to assist Servers (myself)
• MC to oversee everything, and help wherever needed
• Thurafur
• Boat
• Crucifer
• 6 Torches
• 2 Candlebearers for the Gospel Procession and Proclamation
• 4 servers for the second lavabo
• 2 servers for the communion pattens, prepared the altar, and held the ring tray and the zucchetto tray

That is what our 20 servers did today, and it was a wonderful Mass.

I does sound wonderful. I take it you are at the Cathedral so that does kind of skew things a bit.

In our little parish, I’m afraid we have a hard time coming up with 3 servers to be crucifer and torch bearers and some Sundays we don’t have any servers at all. We only own 2 altar candles; we rarely use incense because the community doesn’t like it; we don’t use a paten although I wish we did.

 

[Brendan]

For all who have commented on my “rubbing their noses into it” comment, thank you.

My feeling is that altar boys, altar girls, there is no correlation between serving on the altar and vocations. There are annocdotes, but I haven’t seen any data.

I will refer you to the letter from the Vatican. It was sent out to all the bishops when the allowance of altar girls was determined by Rome

Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all **due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations **(Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2.)

The Vatican would know more about the effect of altar boys on vocations than either of us. That would include if it was simply anecdotal or not.

I agree that we all have our places in the Church. I agree that woman can not be priests. My comment came from Bendan,s video, which shows every male in the congregation from 5 to 18 in some sort of vestments processing out of Mass. There is no need for this other than to turn Mass into a vocation machine. There is nothing for all of these boys to do but sit there in the sanctuary and be special.

You never asked about what roles each of these altar boys do, so how can you comment on it.

Yes those altar boys have taskes, some (mostly the younger or newer ones, carry the swing torches), older ones will carry the processional cross and the candels for the ambo, one will hold the book for opening and closing prayers, two others will go up after the 2nd Reading, retrieve the candels and process with the deacon over to the Gospel podium.

Two will others lead the people bringing up the gifts, others help the priest recieve the gifts, others are assting the deacon (if present) in preparing the altar ( bring over the chalice and corporal). Two more will ring the sanctus bells. Two will remain near the priest (kneeling) and turn the pages of the Sacramentary for the priest (this is the hardest job, as it requires an intimate knowledge of the Liturgy). During the Consecration, 10 other boys will line the center aisle with the swing torches.

And then there are others who will hold the patens during Holy Communiuon, and a few will assist the deacon with the purification of the vessels (pouring water, presenting him with the purificators etc…)

If any older boys are present who have expressed an interest in the priesthood, they will lector at that Mass.

All of this drives a very intimate knowledge of the Liturgy in these boys, the older ones ( the ones who have been assiting the priest in turing the pages), have most sections of the Sacramentary memorized, again, a great start toward the priesthood.

That is what drove my comment - this is a big deal every week for the boys. For the girls - not so much. It’s not having two or three altar boys - it’s every boy in the place. That’s going overboard on one side to the detriment of the other.

The liturgy is a BIG deal for everyone, by defintion. As far as being a detriment to the girls, how so?

 

[Brendan]

I does sound wonderful. I take it you are at the Cathedral so that does kind of skew things a bit.

In our little parish, I’m afraid we have a hard time coming up with 3 servers to be crucifer and torch bearers and some Sundays we don’t have any servers at all. We only own 2 altar candles; we rarely use incense because the community doesn’t like it; we don’t use a paten although I wish we did.

If you would imagine every single boy who would normally be sitting in the pew acting in these roles…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

So…having 20 Altar boys is normal? But have one extra EMHC and everyone is up in arms?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

 

[KarenElissa]

So…having 20 Altar boys is normal? But have one extra EMHC and everyone is up in arms?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

Ya, I’ve been wondering about this kind of attitude too. It seems that a lot of “traditionalist” have problems with the idea that “everyone” should have a part in the liturgy, lectors, cantors, choir, EMHC, etc, but it is ok for “all” of the young boys to be altar servers…

I guess the question is what exactly is the reason for having altar servers? To help serve or something else?

It seems to me that even in a parish with a high number of vocations, most of these kids will grow up and be sitting in the pews with everyone else, so maybe that is what we should be teaching them also?

 

[PaulinVA]

I will refer you to the letter from the Vatican. It was sent out to all the bishops when the allowance of altar girls was determined by Rome

…The Vatican would know more about the effect of altar boys on vocations than either of us. That would include if it was simply anecdotal or not.

Brendan, the Vatican statement provides no facts, either. It just rehashes the same “every one knows this is true” fallacy without providing anything to back it up. I’m really interested in someone proving that serving on the altar promotes priestly vocations. I would like it to be proved, but, so far, it’s just an assertion people keep repeating.

You never asked about what roles each of these altar boys do, so how can you comment on it.

Well, in all honesty, if you did not have this many altar servers the Mass would go on, just like in most parishes.

The liturgy is a BIG deal for everyone, by definition. As far as being a detriment to the girls, how so?

I took a family poll. My kids are mid teens to 20. My wife and girls are appalled that the girls every Sunday are reminded that they are not boys and that they aren’t wanted. If there were only two or three servers, no big deal. But, every boy and no girls - that says a lot to the girls.

 

[ciero]

So…having 20 Altar boys is normal? But have one extra EMHC and everyone is up in arms?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

I hope so!

 

[Phemie]

If you would imagine every single boy who would normally be sitting in the pew acting in these roles…

We don’t have that many boys in the church and really, as soon as they have made their First Communion they are recruited. Most turn it down. Some parents, once the kids have made their First Communion don’t bring them to Mass any more and some don’t want their kids to have anything to do with being an altar server due to the scandals which have been ongoing in our province for 20 some years.

Teens? We have 4 who come to Mass semi-regularly.

 

[Brendan]

So…having 20 Altar boys is normal? But have one extra EMHC and everyone is up in arms?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

The instructions from the Vatican encourage pastors to use boys to serve at the altar, but EMCH’s are only to be used in cases 'of true necessity" ( wf-f.org/non-ordained.html)

. No such limitation exists in the instructions from the Vatican re: altar boys, in fact, the Vatican documents encourage their use.

Another example are the Papal Liturgies themselves. Large numbers of altar boys are used, but no EMHC’s. Thus, if a parish has the resource (necessary clergy and sufficent boys), the emulation of the Masses said by our Holy Father are always a good thing, correct.

After all, as the chief regulator of the Liturgy, Pope Benedict’s liturgies are, in fact models for the Liturgy.

I presume none of us will claim that following the Pope’s example in any matter would be a demostration of hypocrisy? Or that a parish or pastor would somehow be in error by following the Papal example?

 

[Phemie]

So…having 20 Altar boys is normal? But have one extra EMHC and everyone is up in arms?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

What’s ironic? Altar servers are not performing the duties that are those of a priest and deacon. They are not even performing the full duties of an Instituted Acolyte.

 

[Phemie]

I took a family poll. My kids are mid teens to 20. My wife and girls are appalled that the girls every Sunday are reminded that they are not boys and that they aren’t wanted. If there were only two or three servers, no big deal. But, every boy and no girls - that says a lot to the girls.

Why did we think it was perfectly normal 20 years ago? I don’t classify myself as a Traditionalist by any means but I see nothing wrong will all male altar servers.