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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Of course they could. All it would take is the Holy See being asked and giving permission.One more reason for the TLM, they CANNOT be allowed like communion in the hand !
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Iâm not in favor of female servers, but the above is merely absurd, jingoistic rhetoric. Where they occur, they should be called âaltar servers.â
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Veritas41
Guest
I think your suspicion is accurate. There is a tendency for men to back out when women take over an area of ministry. Thatâs why I wonât be a lector or allow my daughters to be altar servers when theyâre old enough, even though itâs permitted in our diocese and our parish. Churches that have women pastors see this same feminization in their congregation.
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Ham1
Guest
This is an interesting questionâŚOne more reason for the TLM, they CANNOT be allowed like communion in the hand !
What would prohibit a priest who has the appropriate permission to say the TLM from using female altar servers? Isnât canon law the same whether the Mass is the current Mass or the old Mass? I understand that this would not be âtraditionalâ and would be âoddâ or possibly inappropriate. But would it be a violation of any Church Law?
I canât see that it would be, but I could be wrong.
Please let me know if there is some law that governs this.
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CatholicNick
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Are altar girls mentioned in Canon law?
Also, the Tridntine is a different rite, different rules. One cannot go into a Eastern Catholic church and demand altar girls and communion in the hand because âthe church allows itâ or its in Canon law - its the same logic.
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Ham1
Guest
Yes. The allowance for female altar servers comes from authentic interpretation of the existing canon 230 #2.
Also, the tridentine is not in the same boat as the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Eastern Churches are not bound by Canon Law (they have their own laws). But the tridentine Masses are a part of the Latin Church. As such, they are governed by canon law.
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Maureen_Fiore
Guest
I agree with you on that part about boys being squeezed out by girls being altar servers. My daughter was an altar server and now my son wants to become one. I encourage my children to serve God in all ways. My parish opens it up to both boys and girls and in my daughterâs class only the girls went for the lessons. Now in my sonâs class all of the boys went to the altar serving class and maybe 2 girls attended. So, I think girls are not squeezing out the boys I think it has to do with telling your children about how it is such an honor to serve our Lord. Parents should explain how this job is very rewarding regardless of their sex.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Pope John Paul II had already, before his allowance of female altar servers, expressly prohibited them - he is supreme legislator and interpretor, there was no ambiguity under which these people were introducing girls into service at the altar, and according to the pope, they were not allowed until he specifically said so.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
This is one area of traditional practice where I am torn as to whether it should be accepted as the norm or not. The reason is that modern (American) Catholics like to create situations in which the exception to the rule is the practiced norm, in some cases almost exclusively.
Take, for instance, communion on the tongue vs. in the hand. Tongue is the universal norm, hand is by indult, yet hand is so much more used than tongue that I know some parishes donât even teach their children about the possibility of receiving on the tongue. Even informed Catholics like my former roommate could be under the impression that receiving on the tongue is an exception to the universal norm of the hand.
Also, universally communicants are *allowed *to stand. In the U.S., standing is the norm.
Another case is one mentioned earlier of lectors. The legislation of the Church envisions instituted lectors as ministers with a proper function that they should fulfill when at Mass. In the absence of an instituted lector, a layman or -woman may be permitted to read. Yet how many Americans have ever seen or heard of instituted lectors? (I suspect most dioceses never used them because they wanted women to be able to fulfill the role - âactive participation,â you know; if lectors were available only males would be allowed to read)
For some reason, everyone seems fine with these weird situations, although if the majority of Masses in the U.S. were indult '62 Masses plenty of people would be pointing out the incongruity of having an exception by special permission become the de facto normative practice.
That brings us to altar servers, though. The Church also provides for the institution of adult males as acolytes, who also have their own proper function. In the presence of an acolyte it makes no more sense to have a non-instituted individual serve in his stead than to have a layman distribute the Eucharist instead of a cleric. So the very fact that an instituted ministry of acolyte exists give precedence in service at the altar to adult males. At the same time, the tradition of boys serving at the altar goes back, to my knowledge, considerably farther than the novelty of laymen reading or distributing the Eucharist that has only come about since, at the earliest, Paul VI. So while I on the one hand recognize that ânormativeâ situation in the Church would be for adult males to serve at the altar (in the form of acolytes), I wonder if itâs not okay to perpetuate the opportunity for young boys to serve in preparation for or discernment of a call to priestly service. Given that, as things are presently worded, these boys cannot displace acolytes, perhaps the ideal solution for the circumstances would be to use acolytes (it makes no sense to create a position, expect its duties to be fulfilled, but then only expect them to be fulfilled by non-instituted individuals in that positionâs absence), but have enough server positions that boys could serve alongside acolytes.
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jmcrae
Guest
As I understand it, these men would be Seminarians, since the function of âacolyteâ is not a lay function, but is one of the steps on the way to the priesthood. So, he would be a single male who is seriously discerning the priesthood, in Seminary.
I agree with that - the emergency substitute is exactly that. If the person to fulfill the role is present, then the substitute should not be required to serve.
Um - they are adult males. Or at least, they are over the age of 16, and attending Seminary. (I suppose they could be as young as 12, in countries that have âyouth seminaries.â)
It is an opportunity for young people to be of service to the Church, to discern their vocation as Christians (whether priesthood, religious life, or marriage and parenthood), and instills in them the habit of voluntary Christian service to the local parish.
That could work, if there were enough first-year Seminarians in the local community.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
I had a nightmare the other night: There were thousands wanting the Eucharist, but there were no priests and hosts. So alter girls became saying the words of consecration, using chips, and calling themselves priests. I donât think I will look at alter girls the same way againâŚ
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Cadence
Guest
Why not just call them Serviettes?
By the way, Iâm a young woman and I donât hate myself and I canât stand female alter servers. I also am sad when I attend parishes that have no servers at all.
My father (ex Anglican priest, now Catholic) was always well known for his excellent encouragment and training of alter boys - many of whom are now priests.
I am also sad at the thought that some would not allow their sons around my dad because he is a priest. That sickens me to my stomach. There is actually a higher percentage of teachers who molest children than priests - do you keep your kids away from them too? What about other adults in your family? Most abuse of children comes from adults in their family or friends. Saying âI am the victimâ is a cop-out.
By the way, Iâm a young woman and I donât hate myself and I canât stand female alter servers. I also am sad when I attend parishes that have no servers at all.
My father (ex Anglican priest, now Catholic) was always well known for his excellent encouragment and training of alter boys - many of whom are now priests.
I am also sad at the thought that some would not allow their sons around my dad because he is a priest. That sickens me to my stomach. There is actually a higher percentage of teachers who molest children than priests - do you keep your kids away from them too? What about other adults in your family? Most abuse of children comes from adults in their family or friends. Saying âI am the victimâ is a cop-out.
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Andreas_Hofer
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Lector and acolyte are stable ministries in addition to their transitional use in priestly formation. NOT ALL acolytes are seminarians. Acolyte is its own, stand-alone ministry. In fact, some of the posters on these threads are instituted acolytes and have never been studying for the priesthood. And since the revisions of Paul VI, acolyte is most certainly a lay function because the minor orders transformed into ministries are no longer clerical. (Whereas one used to enter the clerical state with first tonsure before ever receiving any minor orders, the threshold of clerical life is now placed at ordination to the diaconate.)
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jmcrae
Guest
I donât understand that attitude. Itâs a laity role, and all lay roles are now open to women. Girls arenât doing anything âwrongâ by serving God and the Church in this way.
I really donât âgetâ how something that is virtuous and good when a boy does it is suddenly evil and sinful when a girl does it.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Well, many are, but the lay roles of acolyte and lector are not.
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Cristiano
Guest
Does the role of lector still exists? I thought that it was a minor order that has been removed long time ago.
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jmcrae
Guest
Point taken: I was under the impression that these were clerical roles.
Even so, though - the role of altar server has been opened to girls by the Vatican, which cannot be âpeer pressuredâ into doing anything that goes against Godâs will for us. If itâs good enough for the Vatican, it should be good enough for the rest of us.
(For those who think that the Vatican was âpressuredâ into it by disobedient Americans, how long do you think before they get âpressuredâ by disobedient Americans into accepting birth control or woman priests?
)
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Paul VI ârestructuredâ the minor orders in, I believe, 1967.
He eliminated porter, exorcist, and subdeacon (a major order).
The remaining orders of lector and acolyte were no longer clerical but stable lay ministries into which one was instituted. Their duties may have been slightly altered to pick up some of the functions of the suppressed orders.
While many bishops do not bother instituting anyone to these ministries other than those who must exercise them in order to be ordained to the diaconate, other dioceses do employ them. For instance, the diocese of Lincoln allowed no lay readers other than instituted lectors for decades after the council and restructuring of the orders. Bp. Bruskiewitz eventually relaxed that rule so that readers could fulfill the role of lector (a step he could not have taken until his appointment in '92).
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Itâs a different âriteâ in terms of it being a different missal. Itâs not a different âRITE,â however. The Latin Rite is one rite within the Church.
Itâs entirely possible that at some future time, a pontiff could allow girls to serve at the altar during a Tridentine Mass. As I donât think girl servers are a good idea at all, I donât think it would be be a good idea for a TLM. It is, however, within the realm of possibility, just as it is within the realm of possibility that that the TLM could be permitted in the vernacular or the the Pauline Mass forbidden in the vernacular, or the reception of the chalice made universal or communion in the hand again forbidden. These are disciplines and they are mutable. The Church can order the disciplines of her sacraments according to her wisdom.
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Ham1
Guest
Also, as I noted before the Eastern Churches are not bound by canon law they have their own laws of governance. The tridentine liturgy on the other hand is bound by canon law.
As you note disciplines change, however there is no current discipline of which I am aware that would restrict service at the altar in a tridentine Mass to men only. Since the tridentine mass is governed by canon law and since canon law admits the use of female altar servers, it would seem to be perfectly licit today with no change in discipline.
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