Am I being a jerk about chastity?

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Rose74 said:
This is why I married a non-Catholic. By the time I hit my late '20s all the normal Catholic guys were married and only the creepy ones with Madonna/whore issues were left. I was even a virgin until the age of 27. Meeting men like this really turned me off to marrying a “devout Catholic”. Most of these guys I knew then are still single and all nice, normal women are either still single or married to non-Catholics. The Catholic dating scene after the mid-20s is terrible. This OP is a good example of why.
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Unfortunately, Madonna/Whore can be a common issue among devout Catholic men. It’s a huge problem in Italy, to the point where after childbirth, some men refuse to sleep with their wives (Madonna) and instead take on mistresses (Whore). And somehow they don’t see he contradiction between this behavior and their Catholic faith!
 
LaSainte said:
Unfortunately, Madonna/Whore can be a common issue among devout Catholic men. It’s a huge problem in Italy, to the point where after childbirth, some men refuse to sleep with their wives (Madonna) and instead take on mistresses (Whore). And somehow they don’t see he contradiction between this behavior and their Catholic faith!
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:eek:
 
Flamepoint said:
Okay, I was shocked. I never thought I would marry an experienced woman who gave her body to anothwr guy. I get that people mess up, but the thought of my wife having been with another man grosses me out big time. I told her I was really hurt that ahe had given away her virginity so easily and I have not called her since Sunday.

I know she’s embarrassed and hurt and probably thought I would say it was not a big deal, but it is. She won’t ever be able to give me the gift of her virginity and yet I have held out. She’s a great girl in every other way except she lost her virtue. I don’t want to be a jerk or have too high of expectations. I just don’t know if this should be a dead breaker or if I am passing up a great woman who simply made a mistake when she was a kid.

Can I get over this? Should I? Is she fit to be a mother if she can’t honestly say she waited for her husband? I know the Lord says to forgive but He also says to use good judgment.
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Are you being a jerk for preferring someone who waited? No, but I do think you’re being one for the way you’re acting about it. Not calling her and saying she “lost her virtue” and now you don’t know if she’s “fit to be a mother”? Yeah, that’s jerky.

Look, I was where you were some time ago. I had always wanted to marry someone who was also a virgin, and I never really thought I wouldn’t. But when someone incredible comes along, you have to decide how much you really care about it after all. In my case, I wasn’t willing to let a wonderful man go over it, and we ended up married and I couldn’t be happier.

This woman sounds lovely, but if it’s too important to you to marry another virgin you should do the right thing and let her go. And if you decide you would rather be with her than not, you need to completely let it go. (That is, if she will even speak to you anymore after how you’ve reacted.) Never bring it up, never hold it over her and never, ever try to make her feel badly about it. And certainly none of this “lost her virtue” nonsense. Her fitness to be a mother has nothing to do with a mistake she made years ago and has repented of.

It really is okay to prefer not to continue a relationship over it, despite what some other posters are saying. It doesn’t make you a jerk to decide you aren’t okay with it, and move on. Just do it respectfully, apologize for how you acted, and thank her for being honest with you. You have every right to set your own standards for a wife, and she deserves to be with someone who appreciates who she is now and isn’t hung up on the past.
 
LaSainte said:
Unfortunately, Madonna/Whore can be a common issue among devout Catholic men. It’s a huge problem in Italy, to the point where after childbirth, some men refuse to sleep with their wives (Madonna) and instead take on mistresses (Whore). And somehow they don’t see he contradiction between this behavior and their Catholic faith!
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I think that might be an urban legend. It’s my understanding that men with this complex are often diagnosed with an attatchment disorder. The particular manifestation of the disorder may be colored by their Catholic faith and upbringing, but it certainly isn’t caused by it. As far as it being a “huge” problem, well that depends on your definition. Attatchment disorders are pretty severe and don’t have a good prognosis if left into adulthood. It is a pretty uncommon disorder though.
 
OP, I have been in your shoes, minus your very strong reaction.

I waited for marriage, my wonderful husband did not. However, when this topic came up during our dating relationship, I did not react as you. Largely because of the entire conversation. My husband had only been with one woman prior to me, & when he did finally take that step to be intimate, he was already thinking about proposing to her. However, shortly after that first time, she went out & cheated on him, & immediately told him about it. He then immediately dumped her. Her loss was my gain. 🙂 for me, the knowledge that he was truly in love with her at the time, & thus didn’t view sex as some casual thing to do with just anyone, meant far more to me than any hurt that I wouldn’t be his only partner. Was/is he perfect? No, but then, neither am I. And to be honest, he was far more affected it than I was. He wishes daily that he could take that back & give it to me. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20. He also had no problem with me wanting to wait, which spoke volumes to me about his character.

One mistake does not define a person. She has clearly had a change of heart regarding chastity, as my husband did. Appreciate her for who she is NOW, in this moment.

Were/are you a jerk? I doubt it. Did you react poorly? Yeah, most likely. If you truly love her & can see a future with her, apologize, as many times necessary, & move on. She sounds like a great lady from what you’ve said. Don’t do something you find yourself regretting later.
 
Flamepoint said:
It’s hard for me. I don’t want to be a jerk but I’ve been told my whole life how important it is to save yourself for marriage. And I’ve worked hard at that. Now I’m being asked to let that expectation go, and I mean some things you can’t take back. I do really care for this woman and she is a great person in every other way. It just seems hard to give someone a pass after being told how critical chastity is. I do appreciate the frank feedback. I am not a mean person and want to do what is right long term.
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Let me put it as plainly as possible: Having sex five times at the age of 17 does not make an “experienced woman” out of this young woman. Far from it.

Is she a “virgin” physically? No. She made a mistake as a young kid, she rectified that error, she is now chaste. Sit down and make a list of your faults. Do it honestly without self condemnation. Then read it and correct errors (you will probably leave out a few things!) We all have sinned in some way, no one is perfect. Once you’ve taken a good, long look at yourself in this way, do the same thing for her (without her knowledge, of course) and see her true character. Having made one mistake (ok, five) at so young an age (17) hardly taints overall character (unless that mistake was heinous!)

If you think you are unable to get past this, then the advice of others holds true: end the relationship. But think and pray very, very hard before doing this, because once it’s over, it’s over. There’s no turning back. Even though you may try at some point, it won’t work, the break will always be there.
 
Flamepoint said:
It’s hard for me. I don’t want to be a jerk but I’ve been told my whole life how important it is to save yourself for marriage. And I’ve worked hard at that. Now I’m being asked to let that expectation go, and I mean some things you can’t take back. I do really care for this woman and she is a great person in every other way. It just seems hard to give someone a pass after being told how critical chastity is. I do appreciate the frank feedback. I am not a mean person and want to do what is right long term.
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Try asking yourself about what Jesus wants.

God bless you,
-TJ
 
OP, I am trying to wrap my head around how you can have such unrealistic expectations at 29. It seems as if you must have been leading a very sheltered existence if you think you can meet an attractive and mentally stable woman who has never made any mistakes in her past. I mean, at 29 you must know that people sin. If you let her go, odds are you will never have a shot with anybody half as good.
 
Allegra said:
I think that might be an urban legend. It’s my understanding that men with this complex are often diagnosed with an attatchment disorder. The particular manifestation of the disorder may be colored by their Catholic faith and upbringing, but it certainly isn’t caused by it. As far as it being a “huge” problem, well that depends on your definition. Attatchment disorders are pretty severe and don’t have a good prognosis if left into adulthood. It is a pretty uncommon disorder though.
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I just know it is a huge problem among Catholic men in Italy. One of my professors in college was a specialist in Jungian psychology and her entire family was from Italy and Sicily. She said it is rampant there. Once the wives have given birth, the husbands start to see them as these virginal mothers to the Christ-child rather than their wives who are also sexual beings. They put them up on a pedestal, but still need someone with whom to act out their “baser” desires. Enter the mistress.
 
LaSainte said:
Unfortunately, Madonna/Whore can be a common issue among devout Catholic men. It’s a huge problem in Italy, to the point where after childbirth, some men refuse to sleep with their wives (Madonna) and instead take on mistresses (Whore). And somehow they don’t see he contradiction between this behavior and their Catholic faith!
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Those crazy Eye-talians, I tell you what. What with their infidelity, bunga bunga parties, and mob controlled everything. Must be a crazy place to live.
 
prodigalson2011 said:
Again this completely misses the point. The point is that people treat sexual sin as being especially egregious when it is in fact much less worse than those sins that stem from pride and avarice.
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Sexual sin is not more or less egregious than pride, avarice, murder, etc. All sin is offensive to God. Do you think the separation from God is any less painful if you separate yourself through adultery rather than murder? There is no such thing as a better or worse sin.
 
LaSainte said:
I just know it is a huge problem among Catholic men in Italy. One of my professors in college was a specialist in Jungian psychology and her entire family was from Italy and Sicily. She said it is rampant there. Once the wives have given birth, the husbands start to see them as these virginal mothers to the Christ-child rather than their wives who are also sexual beings. They put them up on a pedestal, but still need someone with whom to act out their “baser” desires. Enter the mistress.
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Yeah, I’d ask to see some documentation about that before I’d start spreading it around myself. I had professors in college say all sorts of bizarre things that turned out to be (gasp) untrue. Your professor might have just had problems with the Church, or maybe she had a friend who ran into one of these types. I highly suspect it is “running rampant”.

Alot of people cling to these urban legends like their lives depended on it. My parents’ neighbor insists to this day that all but maybe one or two of the black males in her hometown are involved in a gang. The initiation into this gang, allegedly, is to bring the hand of a white woman to a meeting. She swears this is a time honored tradition and she has lots of friends who know people who’ve had their hands chopped off. There is no convincing her of otherwise.
 
LaSainte said:
The way he positioned it, wondering if she is UNFIT to be a mother? Telling her she “gave herself away too easily”, saying that she “lost her virtue”? And then he doesn’t speak to her for days!

Fine, he’s shocked, and if he was 17, he might not be expected to handle this with grace and dignity. But this man is 29 years old. If he can’t hear about this girl losing her virginity in a moment of weakness 7 years ago without needing 3-5 days to recover enough to speak to her again, then maybe he isn’t ready for marriage

Look, some of us may have been a little hard on the OP in our reactions, and I know that he is upset about this girl, but he is way out of line here. Even if he can’t get past it, which is his personal choice, he has treated this woman poorly.
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I concur 100% that how he handled it was not even remotely good.

Many here say they are seeing hurt pride, but I am seeing a grief cycle. Shock, anger, detachment are all classic signs of grief. When someone says they were hurt it implies some level of emotional attachment. I don’t think he said the things he did out of pride so much out of lashing out from the feeling of something lost.While this happened 7 years ago from her, the wound is only days old for him. It is possible feel grief for the death of a closely held dream. For him he might have felt he found the perfection of his dream only to discover it is not what he had hoped. That can certainly send someone into a grief cycle.

Don’t get me wrong, I think he needs to apologize for what he said and for unintentionally hurting her. I also think that if we truly want to be helpful people would offer suggestions on what he did wrong and how he might rectify it, not cast aspersions. That is how people mature, not by telling them that they are jerks and unworthy of her.

All I am saying is try to look at both sides of this and assume good intent from both of them. Even if he is emotionally immature that does not invalidate how he is feeling.

Now I’ve said my piece so I’m off to less vitriol filled topics. 😉
 
Usige said:
I concur 100% that how he handled it was not even remotely good.

Many here say they are seeing hurt pride, but I am seeing a grief cycle. Shock, anger, detachment are all classic signs of grief. When someone says they were hurt it implies some level of emotional attachment. I don’t think he said the things he did out of pride so much out of lashing out from the feeling of something lost.While this happened 7 years ago from her, the wound is only days old for him. It is possible feel grief for the death of a closely held dream. For him he might have felt he found the perfection of his dream only to discover it is not what he had hoped. That can certainly send someone into a grief cycle.

Don’t get me wrong, I think he needs to apologize for what he said and for unintentionally hurting her. I also think that if we truly want to be helpful people would offer suggestions on what he did wrong and how he might rectify it, not cast aspersions. That is how people mature, not by telling them that they are jerks and unworthy of her.

All I am saying is try to look at both sides of this and assume good intent from both of them. Even if he is emotionally immature that does not invalidate how he is feeling.
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This.

She made a big mistake. He made a big mistake (I mean if he actually implied to her directly that a sin she repented of years ago and has avoided since somehow makes her an unfit mother for the rest of her life). There is no reason to believe that both cannot repent, amend, and sin no more.
 
Well thank you all for your replies. I really don’t mean to be a prideful jerk, I am just surprised and disappointed. I guess I have been sheltered. I was homeschooled and went to a tiny Catholic college and have not really seriously dated before. My parents always emphasized how “once you give away your virginity, it’s gone forever and you can never fix it.” So I guess my expectations are high and I need to loosen up? I guess I had no idea how many girls (and guys) were not virtuous. I figured most Catholics knew that premarital sex was a grave sin.

I won’t comment on my own sins but of course I am not a perfect man. I have sinned and I have faults but at the end of the line I have not given in to serious sexual sins.

I called this woman last night and I explained myself. I said I was just surprised but that I think I can move past this over time because she is such a great girl. I could tell I hurt her feelings in a moment of vulnerability and I apologized. She said se needed to pray more about this but we’re going to talk again on Friday and have lunch on Sunday. I hope we haven’t blown it.
 
Flamepoint said:
Well thank you all for your replies. I really don’t mean to be a prideful jerk, I am just surprised and disappointed. I guess I have been sheltered. I was homeschooled and went to a tiny Catholic college and have not really seriously dated before. My parents always emphasized how “once you give away your virginity, it’s gone forever and you can never fix it.” So I guess my expectations are high and I need to loosen up? I guess I had no idea how many girls (and guys) were not virtuous. I figured most Catholics knew that premarital sex was a grave sin.

I won’t comment on my own sins but of course I am not a perfect man. I have sinned and I have faults but at the end of the line I have not given in to serious sexual sins.

I called this woman last night and I explained myself. I said I was just surprised but that I think I can move past this over time because she is such a great girl. I could tell I hurt her feelings in a moment of vulnerability and I apologized. She said se needed to pray more about this but we’re going to talk again on Friday and have lunch on Sunday. I hope we haven’t blown it.
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I am glad to hear you have talked to her. I will keep you both in my prayers that God will lead you to where you both need to be. May the Lord bless and keep you both.
 
Flamepoint said:
Well thank you all for your replies. I really don’t mean to be a prideful jerk, I am just surprised and disappointed. I guess I have been sheltered. I was homeschooled and went to a tiny Catholic college and have not really seriously dated before. My parents always emphasized how “once you give away your virginity, it’s gone forever and you can never fix it.” So I guess my expectations are high and I need to loosen up? I guess I had no idea how many girls (and guys) were not virtuous. I figured most Catholics knew that premarital sex was a grave sin.

I won’t comment on my own sins but of course I am not a perfect man. I have sinned and I have faults but at the end of the line I have not given in to serious sexual sins.

I called this woman last night and I explained myself. I said I was just surprised but that I think I can move past this over time because she is such a great girl. I could tell I hurt her feelings in a moment of vulnerability and I apologized. She said se needed to pray more about this but we’re going to talk again on Friday and have lunch on Sunday. I hope we haven’t blown it.
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“You made a mistake. I made a mistake. We did immature things in the heat of the moment. I’m very sorry, I want to get past it, and I hope you can, too. Which of us is ever going to find someone who’s never done anything wrong, never mind having never looked down their nose at someone else who has?”
 
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