Am I being a jerk about chastity?

[EasterJoy]

I fixed your sentence for you.

This. We could make mine better, too:
“I made a mistake. I said and thought immature things in the heat of the moment. I’m very sorry, I want to get past it, and I hope you can, too.”

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

This.

She made a big mistake. He made a big mistake (I mean if he actually implied to her directly that a sin she repented of years ago and has avoided since somehow makes her an unfit mother for the rest of her life). There is no reason to believe that both cannot repent, amend, and sin no more.

Flame, you don’t need to “loosen up”. Your expectations of waiting until marriage are right in line with what everyone’s expectations should be (and as you can tell, aren’t), which is what God wants of all of us. There are people out there that aren’t weirdos, or any other derogatory term people may want to come up with, that are working hard to save themselves for marriage. I get annoyed when people say it is unrealistic, it’s not a big deal yadda yadda… I am glad my dh didn’t pay attention to this when people told him he was being too picky, unrealistic etc before we met. That being said , I am glad you apologized for hurting her feelings and I hope you are aware that, although you are correct in feeling that it is a loss, it isn’t what God had planned in marriage, it doesn’t mean she cannot be a wonderful spouse and mother, possibly more holy and virtuous than other women that may have waited for marriage. Now whether you are for each other, this is something you both have to discern.

 

[SusanneT]

Flame, you don’t need to “loosen up”. Your expectations of waiting until marriage are right in line with what everyone’s expectations should be (and as you can tell, aren’t), which is what God wants of all of us. There are people out there that aren’t weirdos, or any other derogatory term people may want to come up with, that are working hard to save themselves for marriage. I get annoyed when people say it is unrealistic, it’s not a big deal yadda yadda… I am glad my dh didn’t pay attention to this when people told him he was being too picky, unrealistic etc before we met. That being said , I am glad you apologized for hurting her feelings and I hope you are aware that, although you are correct in feeling that it is a loss, it isn’t what God had planned in marriage, it doesn’t mean she cannot be a wonderful spouse and mother, possibly more holy and virtuous than other women that may have waited for marriage. Now whether you are for each other, this is something you both have to discern.

I completely agree. You shouldn’t condem her for past mistakes and if the relationship works for you both great. Equally you shouldn’t feel bad for having high expectations and wanting to marry a girl who shares them. Frankly it would have been a deal breaker for my husband so I can understand how important it is but equally if she is the right girl for you maybe you should forgive.

 

[lerapt78]

I just know it is a huge problem among Catholic men in Italy. One of my professors in college was a specialist in Jungian psychology and her entire family was from Italy and Sicily. She said it is rampant there. Once the wives have given birth, the husbands start to see them as these virginal mothers to the Christ-child rather than their wives who are also sexual beings. They put them up on a pedestal, but still need someone with whom to act out their “baser” desires. Enter the mistress.

I’ll just add my own anecdotal observation on this: I’ve been to Italy three times (for several weeks/month at a time) and traveled from the largest cities (Rome, Milan), to small cities, to large towns, to small towns, and to the tiniest little towns. Only once did I pick up on an attitude that might come close to the Madonna/whore paradigm and that was in a tiny city on the east coast that had a population of <10,000. One of the guys I met there informed me that “good girls” don’t hang out in the town at night when I asked him why I didn’t see any young, single Italian women in the piazza. He said it jokingly, but I really didn’t see any young women, so maybe the “good girls don’t do this” attitude did indeed prevail.

But that was the *only *place I had ever observed this mentality in Italy. I saw quite the opposite everywhere else, and I found that the opposite sexes seem to very comfortable building both platonic and romantic relationships with each other. Even strangers of the opposite sex appear to easily develop relationships without the awkward or sometimes utilitarian approach that I see here.

I also studied Italian in college, so when I went to Italy I made it a point to speak and stay with locals and get to know the culture through immersion instead of regulating myself to the tourist areas and hanging out with only other English-speaking students.

Maybe your professor was just highly exaggerating the prevalence of what she personally witnessed a few times. Or maybe she did come from one of these tiny towns that still hold some rather archaic notions of conduct. But think about it - if your professor’s observation were really accurate of the country/culture as a whole, I would think that Italy would consequently have extremely high illegitimacy rates (which it doesn’t). Or very high abortion rates (in comparison to other countries), which it does not.

cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18_Fig_6.png
johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-italy.html

Because with every man having regular sex with a mistress, there’s just no way a pregnancy would be avoidable with a high rate of success.

EDIT: Sorry, I realize this is way off-topic. But I did want to address a rather bold claim (even though I realize it was only your professor’s claim and not yours, LaSainte) that characterized the behavior of half of a country’s population.

 

[LaSainte]

Yeah, I’d ask to see some documentation about that before I’d start spreading it around myself. I had professors in college say all sorts of bizarre things that turned out to be (gasp) untrue. Your professor might have just had problems with the Church, or maybe she had a friend who ran into one of these types. I highly suspect it is “running rampant”.

Alot of people cling to these urban legends like their lives depended on it. My parents’ neighbor insists to this day that all but maybe one or two of the black males in her hometown are involved in a gang. The initiation into this gang, allegedly, is to bring the hand of a white woman to a meeting. She swears this is a time honored tradition and she has lots of friends who know people who’ve had their hands chopped off. There is no convincing her of otherwise.

Well, the Madonna/Whore complex exists, psychologically speaking. And anecdotally, it is very prevalent in Italy, where the vast majority of men happen to be Catholic. I don’t know if studies exist confirming this, but personally, a lot of the things I have come to know in my life do not have any specific academic documentation. Since when did we become a world in which something must be scientifically verified and written about to have a grain of truth? Here’s a test: go to Italy and start dating. Might not be very scientific, but it will give you an idea

 

[LaSainte]

I’ll just add my own anecdotal observation on this: I’ve been to Italy three times (for several weeks/month at a time) and traveled from the largest cities (Rome, Milan), to small cities, to large towns, to small towns, and to the tiniest little towns. Only once did I pick up on an attitude that might come close to the Madonna/whore paradigm and that was in a tiny city on the east coast that had a population of <10,000. One of the guys I met there informed me that “good girls” don’t hang out in the town at night when I asked him why I didn’t see any young, single Italian women in the piazza. He said it jokingly, but I really didn’t see any young women, so maybe the “good girls don’t do this” attitude did indeed prevail.

But that was the *only *place I had ever observed this mentality in Italy. I saw quite the opposite everywhere else, and I found that the opposite sexes seem to very comfortable building both platonic and romantic relationships with each other. Even strangers of the opposite sex appear to easily develop relationships without the awkward or sometimes utilitarian approach that I see here.

I also studied Italian in college, so when I went to Italy I made it a point to speak and stay with locals and get to know the culture through immersion instead of regulating myself to the tourist areas and hanging out with only other English-speaking students.

Maybe your professor was just highly exaggerating the prevalence of what she personally witnessed a few times. Or maybe she did come from one of these tiny towns that still hold some rather archaic notions of conduct. But think about it - if your professor’s observation were really accurate of the country/culture as a whole, I would think that Italy would consequently have extremely high illegitimacy rates (which it doesn’t). Or very high abortion rates (in comparison to other countries), which it does not.

cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18_Fig_6.png
johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-italy.html

Because with every man having regular sex with a mistress, there’s just no way a pregnancy would be avoidable with a high rate of success.

She spent a lot of time in Sicily, where this is much more common and things are much more antiquated. In Europe in general, mistresses are much more common than here. Men here in the US may cheat on their wives, but the wives never know about it and would never approve. Especially in France, it is quite common for married men to have mistresses a d the wives just expect it.

 

[LaSainte]

Well thank you all for your replies. I really don’t mean to be a prideful jerk, I am just surprised and disappointed. I guess I have been sheltered. I was homeschooled and went to a tiny Catholic college and have not really seriously dated before. My parents always emphasized how “once you give away your virginity, it’s gone forever and you can never fix it.” So I guess my expectations are high and I need to loosen up? I guess I had no idea how many girls (and guys) were not virtuous. I figured most Catholics knew that premarital sex was a grave sin.

I won’t comment on my own sins but of course I am not a perfect man. I have sinned and I have faults but at the end of the line I have not given in to serious sexual sins.

I called this woman last night and I explained myself. I said I was just surprised but that I think I can move past this over time because she is such a great girl. I could tell I hurt her feelings in a moment of vulnerability and I apologized. She said se needed to pray more about this but we’re going to talk again on Friday and have lunch on Sunday. I hope we haven’t blown it.

Good for you. I’m sorry if I came off as a little harsh, I just really feel bad for this girl who made a mistake and is only trying to be honest with you. I really hope that whatever is supposed to happen between you does and that you both find happiness, where we that may be.

 

[LaSainte]

Sexual sin is not more or less egregious than pride, avarice, murder, etc. All sin is offensive to God. Do you think the separation from God is any less painful if you separate yourself through adultery rather than murder? There is no such thing as a better or worse sin.

Yes there absolutely is. Even the Church will tell you that murder is a FAR greater sin than pre-marital sex. Just as mass-murder is a greater sin than vehicular manslaughter. They are all grave matter of course, but some are worse than others.

 

[lerapt78]

She spent a lot of time in Sicily, where this is much more common and things are much more antiquated. In Europe in general, mistresses are much more common than here. Men here in the US may cheat on their wives, but the wives never know about it and would never approve. Especially in France, it is quite common for married men to have mistresses a d the wives just expect it.

Well not to open a can of worms, but some Italians will say there’s “Italy”, and then there’s “Sicily”. One can draw upon the differences in culture from there.

I wouldn’t vehemently argue against the notion that there is a higher prevalence of acceptance of mistresses in Europe, though. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that it is due to a Madonna/whore complex - it could just be that some men there have more of an entitlement issue when it comes to satisfying their lust. That is, “it’s not because my wife has become “pure” after the birth of my child; it’s because she’s very busy with the baby and I still want to satisfy my need for undivided female attention.”

 

[JimG]

Sexual sin is a BIG deal. We all know there are temporal effects of sins so let’s stop pretending. OP has the right to want to marry a virgin (and NO having committed masturbation in the past is not equivalent to losing one’s virginity so don’t even go there).

Just wanted to comment on this part of your post. Why not go there? The OP said nothing about this, but if someone has committed masturbation, then he has not saved himself for marriage either. And if it has become habitual it would likely continue into marriage. Sexual sin is sexual sin, and can have bad effects.

I agree that she owes him disclosure if she has contracted a sexually transmitted disease. Other than that, sins ought to be confessed to ones confessor, not necessarily to one’s spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, or fiancee.

And I do agree that casual extramarital sex has become way too common and has bad effects on individuals and society. But restoring virtue has to begin with each individual. If everyone who has fallen into sexual sin is damaged goods unworthy of marriage, civilization would soon die out.

 

[Allegra]

Well, the Madonna/Whore complex exists, psychologically speaking. And anecdotally, it is very prevalent in Italy, where the vast majority of men happen to be Catholic. I don’t know if studies exist confirming this, but personally, a lot of the things I have come to know in my life do not have any specific academic documentation. Since when did we become a world in which something must be scientifically verified and written about to have a grain of truth? Here’s a test: go to Italy and start dating. Might not be very scientific, but it will give you an idea

Something would have to have much more than just a “grain of truth” before I’d start slandering a large portion of the male population of a nation as well as a large percentage of a Church on the internet. I would also have to have far more adecdotal evidence than just one professor who might just have a good ole fashioned chip on her shoulder.

PS-I don’t think my husband would care for your experiment very much.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

She spent a lot of time in Sicily, where this is much more common and things are much more antiquated. In Europe in general, mistresses are much more common than here. Men here in the US may cheat on their wives, but the wives never know about it and would never approve. Especially in France, it is quite common for married men to have mistresses and the wives just expect it.

This is true. Sorry for the side-track.

 

[EasterJoy]

Sexual sin is a BIG deal. We all know there are temporal effects of sins so let’s stop pretending. OP has the right to want to marry a virgin (and NO having committed masturbation in the past is not equivalent to losing one’s virginity so don’t even go there). He should realize that there are less virgins to choose from. We need to reinstate the value of virginity instead of just slapping a band aid on the problem and say, well no one should expect a virgin and it’s good enough that it was only one guy.

I think it’s weird that when people say they prefer a virgin others get offended. If people can be totally superficial about who they date based on hair, skin and eye color or body type, why not be choosy regarding virginity?

I think the OP could have treated the young lady more charitably but I’m not going to slam him if this is a deal breaker.

OK…

a) No, losing your virginity seven years ago and repenting since is NOT worse than a current habit of masturbation that has not been conquered. Is one worse, put side by side? Sure. Still, the sin that still conquers a person on occasion is worse than a greater sin that one has renounced and that one has been proven able to conquer in spite of on-going temptation to the contrary.

b) “We need to reinstate the value of virginity instead of just slapping a band aid on the problem and say, well no one should expect a virgin and it’s good enough that it was only one guy.” Who said that? I don’t think anyone said that his virginity was not far preferable to her praiseworthy amendment after having lost hers. The question is how we allow ourselves to treat those who have clearly amended their lives after a serious sin, who do not seem in any way to believe that virginity and sexual purity do not matter.

No, I would not slam him if this were a deal-breaker. The choice of whom to marry is a gift of one’s entire self, and the only “choosiness” about it that is inappropriate is a double-standard or a desire to find an inappropriate relationship, such as a desire to find a person one can dominate or subjugate. I do think, however, that not such a long period of “sobriety” but also her choice to tell him the truth count for a lot in her favor. We know the stories of Sts. Peter and Paul. If God put the future of his Church in the hands of people with pasts like that, then that is a sign that reading hearts is most wisely done by using more than a simple accounting of the past.

 

[Kelfa28]

Some of these posts deeply sadden me.

I had a fairly “colorful” past before I converted to Catholicism. I was deeply saddened and ashamed at myself when I began to learn the Truth.

I was very lucky that my husband and I were already together and we both converted before we got married and we already knew we were meant for each other. We were Chaste up until our wedding night once we converted and began to seriously give our lives to Christ.

However, if I came to this realization and was still single. I’m not sure where my self-esteem would be if I began to encounter Catholic men who would react with, well…judgement just short of abject horror.

I’d be beyond crushed and probably wouldn’t want to date anymore. That I wasn’t good enough…nor would I ever be good enough because I was “damaged goods” and no one would want me.

I seriously feel bad for this poor girl…I can just imagine how she felt. Ashamed is the one word I can come up with.

 

[The_Bucket]

We know the stories of Sts. Peter and Paul. If God put the future of his Church in the hands of people with pasts like that, then that is a sign that reading hearts is most wisely done by using more than a simple accounting of the past.

No kidding. St. Peter denied Christ and that’s no small matter. Judas betrayed the Lord and despaired. St. Peter betrayed our Lord and repented. There’s a reason why the former would have been better of had he not been born and the latter was given the keys to the kingdom. You can’t fall much farther than denying knowing God Incarnate… when the Father Himself revealed to you that Jesus is God. Peter decided against despair and instead hoped in the Lord and for that he was rewarded.

St. Paul was out holding the cloaks for people murdering Christians. St. Augustine fancied women so much that he asked for the virtue of chastity to be delayed. Talk about spitting in God’s face!

There are so many other conversion stories out there. And that’s what being a Christian is all about. It’s about daily, hourly conversions back to God over the course of a journey that lasts our entire lives.

 

[Brian123456]

If God forgave her who are you not to? But if it bothers you this much then don’t continue with her as it isn’t fair to her to have you throw it in her face in the future. If you insist on a virgin bride then find another woman being a virgin. You have good standards and I respect your abstinence from sexual relations until marriage. But you cannot marry her until you fully and completely forgive her - for real. One of the most important traits of a good marriage is the ability to forgive and move on. If you can’t forgive her before you’re married how can you do it after? Also, her sin wasn’t against you! She owes you the truth of her sexual past but doesn’t owe you more. She was honest with you and for this alone you should see she has changed. She didn’t have to tell you but she did. If you feel like she is a used woman then don’t continue with her for both your sakes. Sorry, but you did ask.

 

[on_the_hill]

To the OP:

Whether or not your relationship continues seems to rest largely on her shoulders, and whether or not the two of you can work this out.

That being said, I had been dating a woman for a couple years when she admitted to me something she had done in the past. (It wasn’t the same as your situation)

I, too, reacted wrongly. Got upset, felt “betrayed,” maybe even hurt by her admission. The part that hurt the most wasn’t the sin, it was that she had kept it from me for so long. I felt she had been hiding behind a wall (in fact, I used that term, “a wall between us.”)

It took me a while to understand that it was the sense of my not being privy to everything, my jealousy of her for keeping a secret that hurt me the most.

She never opened up like that again, despite my apologies.

 

[57thDimension]

Listen to yourselves!

Insult after insult, name-calling after name-calling, assumption after assumption, crass comment after crass comment, bad faith interpretation after bad faith interpretation. What kind of behavior is that? If the OP were to follow the “Christ-like examples” being put forth by many of these comments, he wouldn’t have to change at all.

The stench of hypocrisy is overpowering.

You say the OP “doesn’t love [his girlfriend]” because “he didn’t say so” - that’s not giving the benefit of the doubt. Is it because you want someone you don’t like to be even worse in your eyes? He didn’t say that he had an addiction of some kind - does that mean we can assume he does? No, it does not.

These threads always devolve into hatefests - both sides of the debate are guilty of contributing. This is supposed to be a Catholic forum - please, act like Catholics. Even secular forums treat people like the OP better.

---

Related to the above, forumgoers who feel they have the right (or duty) to question or attack other people’s decisions as to who they want to marry. It’s not just limited to virginity, but height, weight, employment, attractiveness, age, Mass preference, etc. Why do people feel they can criticize who someone wants to marry?

I mean, I’m not terribly tall, and it normally annoys me to hear people say they will only marry someone taller than them, or taller than some set height, but that doesn’t give me the right to be cruel to them, to question their readiness for marriage, or a whole list of other things.

Why can’t we assume the best of the person we don’t know anything about? That is, that they’ve thought their decision through, they’ve considered many options, they aren’t trying to feel superior, or what have you. I get that some people are offended when they disagree with someone’s choices, but honestly, have we no empathy? Unless you’re someone who had absolutely no criteria whatsoever, how can you criticize someone else’s?

You don’t have to take someone else’s criteria as an affront to your person, or on behalf of some other person or group - just because they’re looking for a person who likes singing, and you can’t sing, doesn’t mean they think less of you, or that they’re a terrible person for rejecting so many other people who can’t sing.

+Sebastian

 

[VivienneJ]

Well thank you all for your replies. I really don’t mean to be a prideful jerk, I am just surprised and disappointed. I guess I have been sheltered. I was homeschooled and went to a tiny Catholic college and have not really seriously dated before. My parents always emphasized how “once you give away your virginity, it’s gone forever and you can never fix it.” So I guess my expectations are high and I need to loosen up? I guess I had no idea how many girls (and guys) were not virtuous. I figured most Catholics knew that premarital sex was a grave sin.

Please stop equating having premarital sex with not being virtuous. Look up the definition of virtuous and you will find that virtuous covers a much wider spectrum of behaviours than just sexual (unless we are stuck in an 18th century English novel). Virginity it just one aspect of virtuousness, losing that does not mean you have no other virtues in your life.

You are probably right that most Catholics know that premarital sex is a grave sin. That does not mean that Catholics therefore are able not to fall into that particular sin. There are other sins that are also grave sins. We have the sacrament of confession/reconciliation for a reason - so that you can ‘fix’ those grave sins by repenting of them and resolving not to commit them any more.

 

[PaleoConCatlick]

I think the OP is being a little ridiculous.

People like his girlfriend are like a needle in a haystack these days.

Even among Catholics.

About 0.00000000000000000001% of the population.

He will probably never find someone as chaste as her again, especially at his age.