Am I being chaste?

[cenpress]

Well, I was taught to search for the good in people. Not to judge or condemn someone based on a single comment.

Here’s what I see: I see two young people … eager and willing to live chaste lives … unsure of what “chaste” actually connotes …

I see a young man who may have said something in a moment of weakness (haven’t YOU? I know I have!). A young man who has stated his intention to live chastely. Tell me, how rare is that? How rare might this young man be? He is willing to be chaste. Let’s start there … not with his comment. Let’s start with the good in him, because (correct me if I’m wrong) that’s where the foundation is built. That’s where Christ dwells.

And in starting there, let’s equip this young woman with clear definitions. Let us arm her with a ready defense so that she might be firm in her resolve to live chastely. So that she might be able to rightly explain to him what we explain to her …

Only in his response will we be able to see into his heart. If she takes what she has learned here and addresses him with it, and he sees and understands where she is coming from … and respects that, and believes in that himself, then we know he is a good man. If he persists and wishes still to see her nude … only THEN would I feel right in saying perhaps he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But certainly not yet. Not from that sole post by the OP.

Does that make sense?

These two WANT to live chastely. They just don’t quite understand what living chastely entails. These are two good people coming here for the truth. Isn’t it a shame that she finds only (mostly) judgment?

 

[FrankLawrence]

Well, I was taught to search for the good in people. Not to judge or condemn someone based on a single comment.

Here’s what I see: I see two young people … eager and willing to live chaste lives … unsure of what “chaste” actually connotes …

I see a young man who may have said something in a moment of weakness (haven’t YOU? I know I have!). A young man who has stated his intention to live chastely. Tell me, how rare is that? How rare might this young man be? He is willing to be chaste. Let’s start there … not with his comment. Let’s start with the good in him, because (correct me if I’m wrong) that’s where the foundation is built. That’s where Christ dwells.

And in starting there, let’s equip this young woman with clear definitions. Let us arm her with a ready defense so that she might be firm in her resolve to live chastely. So that she might be able to rightly explain to him what we explain to her …

Only in his response will we be able to see into his heart. If she takes what she has learned here and addresses him with it, and he sees and understands where she is coming from … and respects that, and believes in that himself, then we know he is a good man. If he persists and wishes still to see her nude … only THEN would I feel right in saying perhaps he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But certainly not yet. Not from that sole post by the OP.

Does that make sense?

These two WANT to live chastely. They just don’t quite understand what living chastely entails. These are two good people coming here for the truth. Isn’t it a shame that she finds only (mostly) judgment?

I admire that you want to go out of your way to look for the good in people. That is a very positive character trait. That being said, I feel that you are giving this guy far more credit than the original post warrants. The statement, “My boyfriend and I want to be chaste and we are sure to practice abstinence,” based on the context of the rest of the original post sounds like it really means, “I told my boyfriend that I’m not going to sleep with him, and he has agreed so far.” I could be wrong, but that is what I get out of the statement.

Also, she has not started this thread WITH her boyfriend, at least not openly She started it to get sound Catholic advice as to the morality of her boyfriend’s suggestion.

From the OP’s perspective, she doesn’t understand what chastity entails. From the boyfriend’s perspective, based on his words, I feel that it is safe to say, he doesn’t CARE, but would rather just get as far with her as she will let him get(and maybe further.) I think it is very presumptuous to suggest that the boyfriend shares the same desire for chastity that the OP does. In fact, I would go as far as saying that any chastity he may have shown was LIKELY feigned to get his girlfriend’s approval, until he can methodically tear down her boundaries until they no longer exist. This is classic, text book sexual manipulation.

It is true, we DON’T know him or the true intentions of his heart, but that is irrelevant. A younger sister in Christ has come in here seeking our advice, and based on the information presented to us, dumping him is sound advice. Or, as I suggested, if she feels that I’m not qualified to give her advice, she should just ask her father how he feels about it.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Here’s what I see: I see two young people … eager and willing to live chaste lives … unsure of what “chaste” actually connotes …

I see one young person who is eager to be chaste, the girl. I have no idea whether or not the boy desires to be chaste, because he hasn’t told us anything. He has not posted on the boards and given us his side of the story. All we know about the boy is from what the girl has told us. She told us that he desires to be chaste, but we don’t know how she knows that, or why she believes him.

It is entirely possible that he was not trying to manipulate her into sleeping with him. He could be gay. He could also be naive, and not fully understand himself or his sexuality. But there is also the very real possibility that he is trying to take advantage of her.

I think there’s a big difference between looking for the good in people and believing that everyone has your best interests at heart.

 

[fix]

Then your reply ought have suggested she “be wary.” Not “dump him immediately.”

This is my second post in this thread. I never said anything about dumping anyone, although that is not an unreasonable conclusion to reach.

But my wish is not to single you out here. All I’m saying is this girl has received vitriolic responses en mass from people purporting to see into her boyfriend’s heart (based on what she, the OP, stated).

This I see as unfair. No one has claimed to read anyone’s heart. They can read words though. The words, as reported, should lead any thinking person to conclude such a request in contrary to virtue.

For all we know, he could be an artist and wanted nothing more than to paint her in portrait.

Why would anyone come to that conclusion based on what is in the OP?

Maybe he suggested it in a moment of weakness and has since seen the light. I don’t know. But neither do you (the universal “you”). I just don’t appreciate people coming on here and claiming to know and understand this guy fully based on one post.

People responded to the information provided. I see no reason to do mental gymnastics to cover up for an improper request.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Gosh, where was CAF when I was younger and needed this kind of advice?

My hope for the OP is that she might share some of what she’s learned from this thread with her boyfriend. Maybe, if he develops a correct understanding of chastity, the relationship can get back on track. If he’s unwilling to embrace chastity, I hope she saves herself an awful headache and ends things quickly.

 

[steveandersen]

My boyfriend and I want to be chaste and we are sure to practice abstinence. However, I want to lay some concrete boundaries for us so that we don’t “go too far.”

What would be a good place to start? Is it alright for us to see each other nude?

He rationalizes the nudity question by claiming that he has no impure thoughts about it and he justs wants to appreciate the beauty God has given me. He says there is no chance that being nude right now would cause him to disregard the respect he has for me or to objectify me.

I just don’t want to bring him to the occasion of sin. What should I do?

It is possible that he could look at you nude and (depending upon the circumstances) not think of you sexually.

But I don’t know how probable that is.

But even if you take him at his word things like that, even with the best of intentions are subject to change.
Familiarity breeds attempt after all.
(and on practical level would you want a potential husband who wasn’t affected by your body? Or you his?)

More important than his feelings are yours.
Presumably you are a healthy young woman with the God given urges of a healthy young woman
How would you feel in the presence of a nude male? Especially one you cared for and have some feelings for?

 

[cenpress]

This will be my last post in regard to other posters. I don’t wish to argue with anyone. I really don’t. I wanted only to bring my opinion to the attention of other posters (and I have done that) and to help the OP.

Now, the OP came to us for help in setting up some concrete boundaries both she and her boyfriend were eager to abide by. What she got instead was a series of posts that told her to DUMP HIM NOW.

From her post:

“Is it alright for us to see each other nude?” … The US sounds an awful lot like “the two of us” or “my boyfriend and I,” as in “we, together, the two of us aren’t sure where to draw the line.” But for some reason, most people only read “HE wants to see ME naked.” (Probably due to what the OP shared regarding his rationalization. But we don’t know that he’s pushing her. We don’t know that he’s NOT, certainly. But it is wrong for us to just suppose that he is. Her post asked for help in setting up some concrete boundaries … why? Because the two of them are CONFUSED! Not so she can fend him off.)

This wasn’t a post from someone saying, “My boyfriend is on my case all the time about seeing me naked & he doesn’t respect me when I say NO.” Not at all!

This was a post from someone who stated quite clearly that, “My boyfriend and I want to be chaste and we are sure to practice abstinence.”

Dump him?! That’s not the advice she wanted to hear. Nor is it advice we ought to propose. These two simply need a clear definition of what chastity is! But so many are so quick to judge this poor guy that you ignore the fact that they (yes, they! meaning HE TOO!) desire chastity! All they need to know is WHAT CHASTITY MEANS. So let’s tell her … so she can tell him … so the two of them can better understand the depth and beauty of chastity … so their relationship can grow and strengthen with love for each other and for Christ.

---

Peasblossom, I truly hope this thread has built for you a strong definition of what chastity means, what it entails. I pray that you and your boyfriend find comfort in knowing that your bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit … and that through Him, with Him, and in Him, your relationship and your love for one another will grow strong as any bond.

May the love of Christ be with you both.

 

[fix]

What should you do?

Probably get a new boyfriend who understands what modesty and chastity are and doesn’t try to entice you into things that are wrong.

You already *know *that being nude with a man who is not your husband is wrong. You don’t need us to tell you that.

This sums up the entire thread.

 

[CarrieH]

For all we know, he could be an artist and wanted nothing more than to paint her in portrait.

Oh, please. I wonder what you would think if you had a teenage daughter and walked in on her and her boyfriend, and found her posing nude with the excuse of, “He only wanted to paint my portrait.”

I actually had someone use that line on me once when I was young. I laughed in his face – and kept my clothes on!

 

[cenpress]

Oh, please. I wonder what you would think if you had a teenage daughter and walked in on her and her boyfriend, and found her posing nude with the excuse of, “He only wanted to paint my portrait.”

I actually had someone use that line on me once when I was young. I laughed in his face – and kept my clothes on!

Wait a minute, who said this was a teenage girl?

Anyway, if you paid any attention to my post at all, you would have seen I never spoke in favor of the two standing nude before each other. Rather the opposite. I was merely asking people not to be so quick to judge. Funny how my simple post has since received its own share of judgment.

But I welcome your comments, CarrieH.

 

[CarrieH]

Wait a minute, who said this was a teenage girl?

I used the “teenage daughter” as an example to illustrate that it is one thing to always think the best of someone’s motives when it involves anonymous strangers, but when these situations hit close to home, involving someone such as our daughters or sisters, one needs to be practical. It’s a sad fact of today’s world that always giving others the benefit of the doubt and taking what they say at face value is a good way for a girl to wind up date-raped or otherwise victimized. Sorry, but people who are dating and wish to remain chaste until marriage need to be a bit skeptical when their dates say that they feel the same way. Some people will say that because they think that is what their date wants to hear, and as soon as they get the chance, they will go for as much as they can possibly “get.” So I would tell my young brothers and sisters who want to remain pure, give your date a chance, but keep your guard up!

Peace,
CarrieH

 

[cenpress]

I used the “teenage daughter” as an example to illustrate that it is one thing to always think the best of someone’s motives when it involves anonymous strangers, but when these situations hit close to home, involving someone such as our daughters or sisters, one needs to be practical. It’s a sad fact of today’s world that always giving others the benefit of the doubt and taking what they say at face value is a good way for a girl to wind up date-raped or otherwise victimized. Sorry, but people who are dating and wish to remain chaste until marriage need to be a bit skeptical when their dates say that they feel the same way. Some people will say that because they think that is what their date wants to hear, and as soon as they get the chance, they will go for as much as they can possibly “get.” So I would tell my young brothers and sisters who want to remain pure, give your date a chance, but keep your guard up!

Peace,
CarrieH

I agree with you fully, CarrieH. It is a sad reality.

I guess I saw it as my duty to shine a light on the positive since so many others decided to jump all over the negative. The OP gave us as much reason to be hopeful as she did to be skeptical. And while I think it good advice for her to be on guard and maybe even a little doubtful about the sincerity of her boyfriend, at the same time it is not prudential for us to simply rule out any chance that this guy might truly desire to remain chaste.

She asked for our help in setting up concrete boundaries and we told her to lose him as if he were Satan’s child. If we turn her away from these boards because we “don’t understand her boyfriend and had no right to speak of him that way” then it is our fault that she remains unclear on the definition of chastity. If our knee-jerk reaction spoils her opinion of this board and drives her closer to her boyfriend because she feels strongly the need to defend him and he proves to be that wolf in sheep’s clothing after all … it is our fault for driving her there.

Instead of being compassionate we were judgmental. THAT is what I was responding to. And it pains me to say that I’ve seen it happen time and again on these boards.

But your point is right on, CarrieH … and the OP should be well aware of those very real possibilities. After reading this thread, one would hope she is aware of them by now.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I personally see nothing wrong with showing your nude body to your boyfriend. I’d do it for my guy. I’d even have sex with my boyfriend before marriage because frankly, I don’t see it as a sin.

Biography: I am an orthodox Roman Catholic.



The post is just wrong but what really shocked me is that you call yourself “an orthodox Roman Catholic”. The level of orthodoxy is not defined based on how much you believe you are correct. That way even a straight out heretic could call himself orthodox. But I guess the first thing I should ask is whether you know the Church’s teaching on marriage and sexual relations. Do you? I can’t imagine that you don’t but still, do you?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I just don’t want to bring him to the occasion of sin. What should I do?

I’m not gonna say anything new, just repeat what many people have already said.

What should you do? Really consider once more who you’re thinking of marrying. I don’t know your boyfriend and I don’t want to judge him (in fact I can’t) but from reading this post I can’t stop believing that he is lying (at least to himself).

Just imagine this, you’re going to get naked and watch each other? Is this normal? Is this how modesty is defined?

Would you ask your parents to do that? Would he ask his parents to do that? And what about his future kinds?

And what will come next? Once you get naked he is going to want to touch you and say he is only appreciating your body without lusting?

Simply say NO. If he persist then show him the door.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Well Holly, I would like to appologize for the post #53. After seeing some other threads I have realized that you have done some thinking since making that post and that your biografy reflects that. That’s a very good news!

God bless!
~G

 

[mesurman]

Dear Peachblossom,

As a father of six, three of which are in college and one is female who just turned 21 my advice to you is run in the other direction as fast as you can. A statement like the one your boyfriend made is very disconcerting. He should never see you in any state of undress until you are married. As a catholic man he should guard your chastity and be willing to protect you at all cost and personal sacrifice. As I tell my oldest daughter if your boyfriend does not treat you like a queen and respect you in all ways give him the boot and move on. Don’t even give him a second chance. His statement shows a callous disregard for your chastity and his as well. Good riddance.

 

[apodino]

This is my first ever post on this site, and it comes from a single 29 year old male who has taken an interest to the Theology of the Body, and I spent many hours reflecting and praying on the issue which you bring up. I wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. I know I will take a bit of heat for what I will say, but after praying, reading the bible, and thinking about society in general, these are whay my opinions are.

The question the OP brought us was, can she be naked with her boyfriend and still be chaste? I totally believe that you can. Now its been suggested that if he saw you naked, that he is either going to be aroused by your nude body, or he won’t and that either you are ugly or the guy is gay. I think thats a load of rubbish. Genesis 2:25 tells us that both Adam and Eve were naked, yet felt no shame. After the serpent tricks them into eating the fruit, then they felt shame and covered themselves before God appeared again. They in effect hid themselves from the God, God did not create them this way. Now people will be quick to point out that God made clothing for them later. This is true, however it is my belief that the since Adam and Eve donned the clothing voluntarily, the Lord only improved the clothing, and it was not to hide their shame. This is backed up by many more references to nudity in later parts of the Bible, and by the fact that God ridiculed them when they were clothed, and never told them they couldn’t be naked.

What I have just explained is the nakedness without shame concept, that was part of the centerpiece of TOB. Christopher West (I highly reccommend his reading) writes that "Pope John Paul beleived that the artist who understands the nuptial meaning of the body can portray the naked body in a way that helps us see the true beauty of being created as male and female" Remember that he had the loin cloths removed from the Michelangelo statues in the Sistine Chapel during his papacy. The pope believed that nakedness was not a bad thing. The problem with most nudity in western society is that it shows too little, because it objectifies both men and women to body parts, and doesn't show the whole package. This is why pornography is dangerous.

  I will realte this concept to the OP in my next post

 

[apodino]

So I have stated that nudity is not neccessarily a bad thing. Now here is where the OP is going to run into problems. We live in western society, which has been conditioned to think that Nudity = Sex, which I think is a pile of rubbish. The big problem we have is that people who want to portray the naked body in positive, non sexual ways that the Pope alluded to, can’t do so because of the backlash against it in this country, and the false lies of the magazine and the hollywood liberals. Even new mom’s are having a difficult time breastfeeding in our society because of this. This leaves only the porn industry to show naked people. This is a very bad thing as I have stated. And since they make the money off of it, they have a big interest to keep it this way. As a result, we now equate nudity and sex, when they are two completely different things.

This all being said, the fact of the matter is, your boyfriend said what he said and he is a product of western culture. So you have to be very careful with this. As others have stated, its not a good idea to french kiss, sleep in the same bed, or share a bath until you have a grasp on this situation. This is where the real test of his love will be. As I said, I don’t think him seeing you naked or vice versa is not chaste. The issue becomes, does he truly want to see you in the ways that the pope described, or does he want to see you in the ways that Larry Flynt portrays his women? This is the question you have to answer, and be very careful when doing so. Another thing that wouldn’t hurt is for you two to go see a clergy member together as a couple for his advice. Notice I said couple, not individuals. If he won’t do this, thats a red flag right there. If he is willing to do this for you, then I think thats a good sign. Don’t be afraid to say no to him if you don’t feel comfortable. And pray hard, and encourage him to do the same. Pray the rosary as a couple, and encourage him to read the book “What does it mean to be a Man” by Thomas Hart, which is an excellent read.

In closing I will say this to everyone on this thread. I assume you are all Catholic. Remember what our faith teaches us. We are all sinners. I am a sinner, you are a sinner, even our priests commit sins. Our faith teaches us to forgive sinners. If this guys intentions are good, then the OP has a great Boyfriend. If they are not pure of heart, let us not condemn him for that, but show him mercy and pray for the almighty fathers forgiveness. Good luck, and God Bless.

 

[fix]

2515 Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the "spirit."302 Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.303

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

 

[fix]

What I have just explained is the nakedness without shame concept, that was part of the centerpiece of TOB. Christopher West (I highly reccommend his reading) writes that “Pope John Paul beleived that the artist who understands the nuptial meaning of the body can portray the naked body in a way that helps us see the true beauty of being created as male and female” Remember that he had the loin cloths removed from the Michelangelo statues in the Sistine Chapel during his papacy. The pope believed that nakedness was not a bad thing.

Artist renderings are one thing. Even those objective paintings may be an occaison of sin for some folks. The point you make does not translate into being intentionally nude around other people especially folks who are dating.

I think it is a serious mistake to delude ourselves into thinking people may freely look at others while naked without tempting ourselves. In theory it may be true, but in practice it is unwise.

As we have many threads where people claim nudism is consistent with Christianity I have yet to see any proof other than personal rationalizations.