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Annie
Guest
Ahhhhh, that is a tricky situation which would probably require speaking with someone in person because of the many aspects of the situation. Persevere in this–it is not right of your wife to make such a fuss about this, but you probably need help in discerning the best way to go forward, as you seem to want to go, and it is serious that you are not going.
In the meantime, pray hard, especially for your wife!
In the meantime, pray hard, especially for your wife!
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QwertyGirl
Guest
Well, if you really want my thought on it, I will share. It requires discussion about things people here may find offensive. Not my intention.
If you think comparing souls to eggplant is a reasonable comparison, then nothing I say is going to make you think differently. I realize you were saying that in jest, but those are the kinds of comparisons that Catholics who are genuine in their beliefs make all the time. They actually believe you can compare the physical with the spiritual, as if the spiritual is physical in nature. In my experience, the physical and spiritual are often connected, but they are not the same at all.
- There is no proof that souls exist. For people who don’t believe, it is hocus-pocus. It is not the same as physical existence. For those who don’t believe, the whole concept is a goofy one. Of course it is up to each person to decide if they believe in a soul. Don’t we all define ourselves, to a certain extent, based on our beliefs?
- Personally, I believe in the possibility of the existence of souls. For me, it is an incredibly personal and intimate concept. Just as I don’t believe in pushing my beliefs on my kids, for example, I don’t believe anyone or any organization should assume ability to decide what I am, spiritually. It lacks respect for human dignity.
- Of course the Catholic Church says it believes a soul is permanently “marked” at baptism. Again, hocus-pocus to me. No one can see a soul or knows for sure it exists. For those who believe in a soul, they do so out of faith. There is no proof of any marking. It is fine to believe that if you want to. It is also fine not to. Very reasonable to self-define what one thinks about their own soul. It is theirs, afterall.
If you think comparing souls to eggplant is a reasonable comparison, then nothing I say is going to make you think differently. I realize you were saying that in jest, but those are the kinds of comparisons that Catholics who are genuine in their beliefs make all the time. They actually believe you can compare the physical with the spiritual, as if the spiritual is physical in nature. In my experience, the physical and spiritual are often connected, but they are not the same at all.
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EZweber
Guest
I have a problem that I would like advice on. Since your name is now Mr Eggplant, I should be able to call you with @MrEggplant , but it isn’t working. I think I need psychological evaluation.Clearly. I’ll expect you to call me “Mr Eggplant” from now on, please.
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PetraG
Guest
We’re the original Hotel Calfornia that way…
Baptism leaves an indelible mark. Someone can say they aren’t Catholic for years and years after their baptism. When they come back, they repent, confess and recieve absolution. They are NOT baptized again, because they are already Catholics.
Really, does someone not belong to their family because they renounce their family? No, their parents are still their parents, their siblings are still their siblings, no matter how much that someone renounces them all. You cannot renounce your birth, and baptism is a birth.
CCC 1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” (2 Cor 5:17; 2 Pet 1:4; cf. Gal 4:5-7) member of Christ and co-heir with him, (Cf. 1 Cor 6:15; 12:27; Rom 8:17) and a temple of the Holy Spirit. (Cf. 1 Cor 6:19.)
Nobody can take that away from you.
To be in a state that does not allow one to recieve Holy Communion is more like being in a grave state of health that does not allow the patient to eat. The sacrament is not withheld as a penalty, but in order to preserve the soul from the additional wound or harm that would be caused by the sacrilege of recieving Holy Communion when the soul is not in a state of grace.
Our Lord died for us, while we were still in sin. We are not kept from Holy Communion as a punishment for sin, then!! No, we are kept from Holy Communion if we are in a state if grave sin after baptism because we need to repent and return to a state of grace in order to receive the benefits we are intended to recieve by doing it. To ignore that would be like ignoring a physician’s order to avoid eating until one’s health has recovered sufficently to tolerate it.
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StephenBales
Guest
I thought that whole post was good, actually.
While not the same situation, there’s a particular sin with which I struggle. But, and this is why I’ve placed crucifixes in several spots in my home, if I catch a glance of Our Lord on the cross, or feel my crucifix necklace move around on my chest, or fiddle with the rosary bracelet, it makes me think of all the Good Lord has done for me, and how I’m about to squander his gifts. I feel incredibly guilty for even thinking to commit this particular sin, because were I to do so, yes indeed, His love would go unrequited for a bit while and for a time after I sin. That guilt will quite often pull me back from the edge.
po18guy
Well-known member
You are very kind. I can recommend holy water, used with as much faith as you can muster. A small bottle which I have from the grotto in Lourdes has special significance, as Saint Bernadette was instrumental in my conversion and subsequent deliverance from several generally fatal illnesses.
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adgloriam
Guest
I’m really sorry, I only just considered that I may have been antagonistic without realizing it (not on this thread but a handful of other posts). And that was certainly not my intention because interacting with you has been lovely.
Now, for a bit of comedy…Imagine when you get to heaven’s gates saint Peter turns out to have, shall we say:“left wing tendencies”…
And, it turns out, you have to expiate for a certain amount of “right wing” tendencies that weren’t exactly right.
Ever consider that the two of us meeting might have a eschatological meaning?
Honestly @po18guy I take your points and I appreciate them. Plus you are an older gent, endowed with a young spirit, and I respect you.
Now, for a bit of comedy…Imagine when you get to heaven’s gates saint Peter turns out to have, shall we say:“left wing tendencies”…
And, it turns out, you have to expiate for a certain amount of “right wing” tendencies that weren’t exactly right.
Ever consider that the two of us meeting might have a eschatological meaning?
Honestly @po18guy I take your points and I appreciate them. Plus you are an older gent, endowed with a young spirit, and I respect you.
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Gorgias
Guest
No problems. I don’t offend easily.
Fair enough. Yet, since they’re spirit and not physical, what kind of proof might we expect? And, lacking empirical evidence (of the sort that’s impossible to produce), why would we reject the assertion nevertheless?
Fair enough. However, “I believe” is a statement about personal conviction; it’s not a statement about objective reality. Whether or not souls exist, the kind of statement that is “I believe” or “I don’t believe” doesn’t actually define existence. So, I don’t define my soul (or lack thereof) by merely asserting “it exists” or “it doesn’t exist”… right?
You believe your kids should eat in a healthy way, don’t you? You believe that your kids shouldn’t have spirituality imposed on them, don’t you? Aren’t you, then, already imposing your beliefs on them?
(I would suggest that parental imposition of beliefs on their children is an essential part of their responsibility as parents – and therefore, not doing so is evidence of a disregard for their human dignity…!)
So, then… how are we to make assertions about posited spiritual realities? Who would have the competence to make such assertions? In this realm, if we assert that Christ started the Church and gave it authority, wouldn’t we then necessarily conclude that it’s precisely the Church – and not others! – who have the competence and authority to make these sorts of assertions?
There’s a difference between an adult sharing their beliefs or providing information, and an adult forcing another adult to accept their personal beliefs. (Then again, there’s a difference between an adult sharing personal belief and an adult sharing what their Church teaches from a position of authority, wouldn’t you say?)
LOL! It was hyperbole, Qwerty…
Other than the fact that they’re both expressions of reality, that’s a reasonable assertion.
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Gorgias
Guest
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LittleFlower378
Guest
Baptism officially makes one a Catholic. But lets say you are in RCIA and your truly want to become Catholic and you die, but were never formally baptized, then you could be part of the Church and be Catholic and have a Baptism of desire.
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QwertyGirl
Guest
I appreciate your response. Suffice it to say our views are very different. For me, I don’t need answers to everything with regards to spirituality. I find this is a difference between me and many Catholics. I am perfectly content to say “I don’t know. Nobody knows. I imagine this is the way things are, but I am content knowing we will never know as long as we are physical beings.” Catholics, I have noticed, usually tend to be very uncomfortable with my level of acceptance and comfort in this regard. As a result, I usually don’t debate these topics much, with them.
My hope and wish for everyone I cross paths with is that they have a successful spiritual journey, while living this physical life we have been given. I hope, on that, we can agree.
My hope and wish for everyone I cross paths with is that they have a successful spiritual journey, while living this physical life we have been given. I hope, on that, we can agree.
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PetraG
Guest
Yes. In other words, baptism happens by a process of the will (in response to the call of God initiating the process) that brings the soul to seek to join with the Body of Christ, a process that culiminates in the celebration of the sacrament. The Church believes that adults who become catechumens but who die before baptism belong to the company of the faithful because the resolve of will was made but through no fault of the person the opportunity to celebrate the sacrament had not yet presented itself. The Church believes God will not withhold the grace of the sacrament that normally descends at formal baptism to someone who responded to the call to seek that grace with a good will but was not given the formal sacrament before death.
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Gorgias
Guest
Fair enough.
I don’t think it’s a discomfort with the fact that you’re ok not having answers, but that there’s an unwillingness to embrace the answers that actually do exist. Still, that falls to “personal preference”, I guess…
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QwertyGirl
Guest
What you call “answers”, I see as “ideas”. One must have faith to believe those ideas are “answers”. I find it doesn’t have anything to do with will or personal preference.
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PetraG
Guest
Generally, people would state this as “I am Catholic, but I do not recieve Holy Communion because I am in an irregular marriage with regards to canon law.” It’s still as Catholic as anybody else, but limited by circumstance with regards to practice.
That is, if they state it, because it is something you’d share with those you choose to share it with that is otherwise a matter that is between you and your pastor. Even though other people might argue that your state affects them, their business in the matter is to butt out until you ask them in.
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LittleFlower378
Guest
Heresy, Schism, Apostasy remove one from the Church, but also certain sins like abortion, one can be automatically excommunicated. With all these sins person has to know that they incur automatic excommunication before they do the sinful act for the person to be excommunicated.
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TheLittleLady
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I am so sorry. Pray, love, hope.
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LittleFlower378
Guest
Strictly speaking I believe we only have to receive Holy Communion once a year, but we must attempt to go to mass every week, otherwise we may be cut off from Gods grace and be in a state of mortal sin.
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LittleFlower378
Guest
So why not have faith?!?!
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