Amazing Facts bible study guide

[mercygate]

Dear Patrick

Thank you once again for your friendly reply. The quotes regarding chaining of Bibles to the pulpit for safety makes sense to me, so no problem.
But please tell me why would the Waldenses have to hide hand-written portions of scripture in the hems of their garments while `selling goods’ from door to door, and then secretly sharing these portions of Scripture with fellow believers? Or hide Bible portions in dough and bake it in the oven to keep members of the inquisition from discovering these treasures?
And why would Bible translators be burnt at the stake for their efforts?

God bless,

Friedrich

Waldensian translations were skewed to reflect their particular heresy. Though most of our information on the Waldensians comes from unfriendly sources, one feature that made them dangerous to society as a whole, and not just to Christianity, was their doctrinal simlarity to the Cathari, with its rejection of social contracts and total opposition to all war. Those who wished to be “perfect” were allowed to dissolve their marriages without the consent of their spouse. They ran into doctrinal error because their preachers were untrained, and in their enthusiasm for extreme Gospel poverty and other Gospel precepts, fell off the balance beam into heresy. Few copies of their scriptures survive but apparently they reflected their extreme views. They began to ordain their own clergy, which put them outside the pale of the Church an onto the heresy bus.

Interestingly, almost simultaneously, St. Francis of Assisi was introducing a similar way of life through his lay Order.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Friedrich,
I would be happy to look up the instances you were speaking of if you would provide me some citations regarding what you are claiming the Waldensian people did.

The Waldensian movement was a Catholic Offshoot… Waldo was a Catholic who was very rich and then left his wife and had his two daughters consigned to a Monastery so that he didnt have to care for them. He then took a vow of poverty and began preaching doctrines that were considered heretical, still are by Catholics. When the local leaders told him and his followers to quit preaching in the streets and begging, they continued to do it anyway, breaking the law. They begain hiding their true mission and hiding their scriptures etc. from the public eye when they were in fear of being arrested for doing what they had been told not to do!

It is no different today… if you break the law, whether you agree with it or not, you are arrested etc.

**I come across alot of stories like this one in history, but it is the Catholic church that always get the blame for what the governing authorities did at that time to keep and restore order according their existing laws, which are cruel to today’s standards in the U.S. For one the Catholic church gets to be blamed because she was the only Christian faith existing in the world, and secondly the Catholic church gets the blame, because the King or ruler was a Catholic, so the Catholic church gets judged by the (sins) or misdeeds to maintain order by her members. This is still the case today about the Cathoic priests who have confessed to molestation cases. I understand the rule when one member suffers we all suffer, but to be accused and judged of someone elses sin is a little unjustified and extreme.

Wonderful posts, SDA2RC thanks**

 

[Nan_S]

Dear Nan S

Thank you for reminding us of Jesus’ 2 commandments. Earlier in this forum there was a long discussion on the 10 commandments, numbering etc. Somebody showed us that the CC has a summary' of the 10 commandments in the cathechism -- Jesus also gave a summary’ of the 10 commandments!
1-4 = showing of love and respect for God
5-10 = showing love for your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus did not make up anything new, He just summarized what you and I believe anyway.

God bless,

Friedrich

Jesus did a great deal more than just summarize. Jesus really did do something radically new. Jesus took two “Thou Shalts” and eight “Thou Shalt Nots” and turned them around into a positive plan for action.

Think about it. If you keep the Sabbath and honor your parents, but sit on your butt and do absolutely nothing for anyone else, you have fulfilled the Ten Commandments!!!

Jesus says anyone who behaves thusly is a lazy and worthless servant. Accordingly, then, we who are Christians follow Jesus’ Two Commandments and positive plan for action. Jesus’ Two Commandments include the fundamental essence of the Ten Commandments, strip them of their legalisms, and elevate the meaning behind them to a much higher level.

Friedrich,
The problem is that the Ten Commandments, which are identified as the Old Covenant in scripture, have been done away with according to scripture. Their content is still valuable to us in learning about natural law, but not ceremonial. This is why we follow the New Covenant, we keep those laws that are contained in the Gospel, not the Old Covenant.

Brandon

It’s worth bringing Acts Chapter 15 into the discussion at this point. Certain prominent Jewish Christians came forth arguing that Gentile Christians should be required to be circumcised and obey Mosaic law. Therefore the Council of Jerusalem was called to decide the issue. The final decision was that Gentile Christians were NOT compelled to be circumcised NOR to follow Mosaic law.

List time I checked, my ancestry was Gentile as far back as it could be traced. That makes me a Gentile Christian, required to follow Jesus’ Two Commandments and positive plan for action, which is actually a lot more demanding than just abstaining from eight “Thou Shalt Nots.”

(This is a longer passage than I typically post, but it’s very pertinent. I’ve abridged it due to length. Read the whole of Acts 15:1-29 at vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY9.HTM)

Acts 15 1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved."2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question…5 **But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.” **6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. 7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, … “8 God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting the Gentiles the Holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.”… 13 James responded, “My brothers, listen to me… 19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. 21 For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath.” 22 Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas… 23 This is the letter delivered by them… 28 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, 29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Nan S

Thank you for the friendly letter.

Yes, I agree 100% with everything you say about the ceremonial laws being done away with.!

But you seem to have not noticed that in the Old Testament there were 2 sets of laws – the ceremonial, and the 10 commandments!

Study this up for yourself.

A brief summary: The ceremonial laws were NOT written on stone by God Himself, but rather written by Moses. They were NOT put in the ark of the covenant, but outside the ark. They were NOT eternally binding, but POINTED FORWARD TO CHRIST, THE LAMB OF GOD, TO BE SLAIN FOR OUR SINS.
Thus when Christ died on the cross, an unseen heavenly hand ripped the curtain of the sacred Most Holy place and exposed it to all, the lamb of the evening sacrifice escaped and ran away – all pointing to an end of these ceremonies – they were FULFILLED IN CHRIST’S DEATH.

The Moral Law or 10 Commandments, were written on stone, by God Himself, they were put in the ark of the covenant, binding forever, because IF THE COMMANDMENTS COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED, THEN CHRIST NEED NOT HAVE DIED FOR OUR SINS – HE COULD JUST HAVE CHANGED THE LAW TO NEGATE OR SINS! Read Mat 5:17-19 where Jesus clearly states: ``Think not that I have come to change the law…’’

I hope you are not saying that Jesus’ death made it OK for us to murder, steal, covet, dishonour our parents etc! Those moral laws are part of Jesus’ very character, and though we are saved by grace, the obedience to those laws does not save us, but makes us FIT FOR HEAVEN!

Happy day

Friedrich

 

[SPH1]

Read Mat 5:17-19 where Jesus clearly states: ``Think not that I have come to change the law…’’

The rest goes like this, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. "

Now, it depends upon how Christ fulfills the Law. And it appears that the passing to the new age begins with Christ’s death and resurrection.

It seems to me that many groups have some gimmick teaching to stand out among the crowd. Faith Alone (Luther), Predestination (Calvin), Baptism by Immersion only (Baptists & some others), the Sabbath vs Sunday (SDA’s). I recall one group whose gimmick teaching apparently was “house churches”, insisting that the only true way to have a church was in individual homes.

 

[Nan_S]

I hope you are not saying that Jesus’ death made it OK for us to murder, steal, covet, dishonour our parents etc! Those moral laws are part of Jesus’ very character, and though we are saved by grace, the obedience to those laws does not save us, but makes us FIT FOR HEAVEN!

Happy day

Friedrich

??? Perhaps you were not awake yet as you posted that?? Jesus’ second commandment is Love Your Neighbor As Yourself. None of what you describe in that paragraph is loving of anything or anyone.

Look back on my previous post #196 for the rest of your answer.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[SDA2RC]

Dear Nan S
Thank you for the friendly letter.
Yes, I agree 100% with everything you say about the ceremonial laws being done away with.!

But you seem to have not noticed that in the Old Testament there were 2 sets of laws – the ceremonial, and the 10 commandments!Fredrich,

I am afraid that what you said above is not entirely accurate. Scripture never speaks of there being two laws. I know that you divide them between the 10 Commandments and the other laws (which were certainly not all ceremonial), however, this is a man made distinction. Scripture never tells us that is two different laws. The Jews also did not follow this belief. The Mitzvoh is the Law of God, and contains all 613 commands from God, including the Ten Commandments. This was the only Law they know of… they did not then, nor do they now believe in two separate laws.

I was taught the same thing you were… that there were two different laws. But I found that I had been deceived, as I believe you have been. Look at just a little of the evidence below.

Scripture shows that the “law of God” and the “law of Moses” are the EXACT SAME LAW. Scripture says that the “law of God” included several commands that both Catholics and Adventists claim have been done away with, yet Adventists say that only the Mosaic or Ceremonial Laws were done away with.

Nehemiah 8 refers to the “book of the law,” and calls it the book of the law of Moses (v1)1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

**and the book of the law of God (v8,18).**8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

18Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.
God commanded it by Moses (v14), both terms refer to the same law.14And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:
Luke 2:21-24,39 - The law of Moses (v22) is called the law of the Lord (v23,24,39). 22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the** law of the Lord,** A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
39And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
**This “Law of the Lord” included a purification rite and animal sacrifices. These were clearly done away (**cf. Lev. 12:2-8). Hence, the law of the Lord is the same as the Law of Moses, and it contains things that were done away, this is because the Law of God/Moses was ONE law and contained all 613 of the Commands that God gave to the Jews!

There is absolutely no Biblical support of the idea that there were two separate laws.

In 2 Chron. 31:2-4 the law of God included animal sacrifices, new moons, and feast days, which we know were done away.2And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the LORD.
3He appointed also the king’s portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD. **
4Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the LORD.**
**There is no distinction between the law of God and the law of Moses. It was both God’s law because He originated it, and Moses’ law because he revealed it (Neh. 10:29). **The whole idea that there is are two laws is a man-made rule having no Divine source!

Not only is there only one law, but the 10 Commandments, which were part of that law, were the covenant that was done away with!

(Exo 34:28 NASB) So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Notice this verse states that the words of the covenant were the Ten Commandments; it does not mention the Jews acceptance or agreement to accept the law as being the covenant.
(Deu 9:11 NASB) "And it came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant. This verse re-affirms that the two tablets of stone were the tablets of the covenant.
(1 Ki 8:21 NASB) “And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt.”
Notice this says the covenant is INSIDE the ark, we know the Ten Commandments were in the ark. Do we really believe that the “agreement” between all the people and God, which would be immaterial, was somehow physically placed in the ark?
(2 Chr 6:11 NASB) “And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD, which He made with the sons of Israel.”
(Heb 9:4 NASB) having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant.

The Bible plainly states that the covenant IS the Ten Commandments! And as is rightly noted in Hebrews… it has been done away with!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Nan S

Thank you for the friendly letter.

Yes, I agree 100% with everything you say about the ceremonial laws being done away with.!

But you seem to have not noticed that in the Old Testament there were 2 sets of laws – the ceremonial, and the 10 commandments!

Study this up for yourself.

A brief summary: The ceremonial laws were NOT written on stone by God Himself, but rather written by Moses. They were NOT put in the ark of the covenant, but outside the ark. They were NOT eternally binding, but POINTED FORWARD TO CHRIST, THE LAMB OF GOD, TO BE SLAIN FOR OUR SINS.
Thus when Christ died on the cross, an unseen heavenly hand ripped the curtain of the sacred Most Holy place and exposed it to all, the lamb of the evening sacrifice escaped and ran away – all pointing to an end of these ceremonies – they were FULFILLED IN CHRIST’S DEATH.

The Moral Law or 10 Commandments, were written on stone, by God Himself, they were put in the ark of the covenant, binding forever, because IF THE COMMANDMENTS COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED, THEN CHRIST NEED NOT HAVE DIED FOR OUR SINS – HE COULD JUST HAVE CHANGED THE LAW TO NEGATE OR SINS! Read Mat 5:17-19 where Jesus clearly states: ``Think not that I have come to change the law…’’

I hope you are not saying that Jesus’ death made it OK for us to murder, steal, covet, dishonour our parents etc! Those moral laws are part of Jesus’ very character, and though we are saved by grace, the obedience to those laws does not save us, but makes us FIT FOR HEAVEN!

Happy day

Friedrich

Hi Friedrich,

Here is part of the law, written by the finger of God, regarding the Sabbath. I do not think this is in any way ceremonial, so it must be moral. Do you follow this moral law, written by the finger of God, and if you do…why? If you do not? Why?

Exodus 31:12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

Study this up for yourself brother!!

God bless all!

 

[SDA2RC]

A brief summary: The ceremonial laws were NOT written on stone by God Himself, but rather written by Moses.

It is true… that their mode of delivery was different, however, God inspired Moses to write these laws. Neh 8 calls them the law of God. The source of the 10 Commandments and the rest of the law is the same. GOD!

A. God created the tablets and they were delivered to the Israelites by Moses.
B. God created the rest of the law and it was delivered to the Israelites by Moses.

The medium it was delivered on was different… but the source is the same. God’s law is God’s law no matter how it is written or delivered. Would you dare tell God that you can ignore HIS law just because it was not written in stone?

They were NOT put in the ark of the covenant, but outside the ark.

Actually…the entire law was placed in the ARk of the Covenant. The tablets inside the large compartment because of their size and need for protection. The book, was also placed in a pocket on the Ark… because they are all part of the SAME LAW!

They were NOT eternally binding, but POINTED FORWARD TO CHRIST, THE LAMB OF GOD, TO BE SLAIN FOR OUR SINS.

Some say the Sabbath is still in effect because Ex. 31:16,17 says it was to be kept “forever,” “everlasting,” “perpetual.” But this passage also says the Sabbath was a sign only between God and Israel, so why bind it today on other people? Why take only parts of this passage and ignore the parts that specifically state that this was only between God and the Sons of Israel? And this “everlasting” law required people to be killed for violating it. If the law is still in effect today, the punishment must also be in effect. To fail to keep any part of the law is to
admit the law is not binding.

The Hebrew terms “forever,” “everlasting,” etc., do not necessarily mean a thing has no end. This is proved by many other practices which God said were “forever,” but which definitely have ceased.

Examples are:

1. The Passover (Ex. 12:14)
2. Incense (Ex. 30:8)
3. Feast days (Lev. 23:14,21,31,41)
4. Animal sacrifices (Lev. 16:29-34; 6:19-23; 2 Chron. 2:4)
5. Levitical priesthood (Ex. 40:15; 29:9,26-28; 28:40-43; Num. 25:13; Deut. 18:5)
6. Tabernacle worship (Ex. 27:21; 30:8,17-21; Lev. 24:5-9)
7. Circumcision (Gen. 17:9-14)
8. All God’s commands (Psa. 111:7; 119:151,152,160).

If these practices could cease though scripture says that they were to last “forever,” why cannot the Sabbath have ceased?

The Moral Law or 10 Commandments, were written on stone, by God Himself, they were put in the ark of the covenant, binding forever, because IF THE COMMANDMENTS COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED, THEN CHRIST NEED NOT HAVE DIED FOR OUR SINS – HE COULD JUST HAVE CHANGED THE LAW TO NEGATE OR SINS! Read Mat 5:17-19 where Jesus clearly states: ``Think not that I have come to change the law…’’

Friedrich,
This is not accurate… First… Just because they were written on stone, does not make them any more binding or perpetual than the rest of his laws. The authority and everlasting quality has its root in God, not stone. Therefore, whether they were written on stone or not… makes no difference. This is why you cannot provide a verse that says that because they were written on stone, they will last forever. That is a man made assumption.

However: "What Scriptural proof is there that these distinctions in the laws are valid? How do we know that what was done away includes only the “law of Moses” or ceremonial law, but not the “law of God”, etc.? How do we know what laws are included in the law of God (moral law) and what laws are not? (Note that the terms “moral law” and “ceremonial law” are nowhere mentioned in the Bible.) You say the Sabbath must continue today because it was one of the Ten Commands, the “moral” “Law of God.” But the Sabbath is also repeated in parts of the Old Testament other than the Ten Commands (Ex. 31:13), and it is listed with laws and feast days that have been done away with (see Lev. 23:1-44; 19:3&30). Why doesn’t this prove the Sabbath was done away as part of the “ceremonial” “Law of Moses”?

How is the Sabbath any less “ceremonial” than these other feasts and Sabbath rests?

Second… your idea that if the law could be changed Christ would not have had to die is a logical fallacy called a false Dichotomy. You have presented the issue as being either the Law or Christ. In reality, Christ died for US… not the law! If man had not sinned, THEN Christ would not have had to die! The real dichotomy is between Man and God, not the Law.

Further, the Jewish Law was not needed to know sin.

We are told that there was sin BEFORE the law!

Romans 5:12-14: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death
spread to all men, because all sinned --** for until the Law sin was in the world;** but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam’s offense, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

I hope you are not saying that Jesus’ death made it OK for us to murder, steal, covet, dishonour our parents etc! Those moral laws are part of Jesus’ very character, and though we are saved by grace, the obedience to those laws does not save us, but makes us FIT FOR HEAVEN!
Happy day
Friedrich

Friedrich,
This is another example of the logical error of a false dichotomy. The dichotomy that you have presented is that we either keep the Jewish law, or we must not believe in any law at all.

In reality, the dichotomy is between the Old Covenant law and the New Covenant law. Just because we are not longer under the Jewish Law, does not mean that we are no longer under any law at all.

Just as if I left the United States and visited South Africa. Just because I would no longer be under US law, does not mean that I am under no law at all and free to do whatever I want. The laws change between the US and South Africa, some are the same, some are different, but I am still subject to law.

This is the same with the Old and New Covenant. Just because we are no longer under the Old Covenant does not mean that we are no longer under any covenant. The laws have changed, some are the same, some are different, but we are definitely under law.

In the New Testament, New Covenant we are commanded to:

1). To worship the Lord God only (1st commandment): no less than 50 times
Note: the prohibition against making a likeness of that in heaven or on earth is not, however,
repeated in the NT.
2). Idolatry (2nd commandment): condemned 12 times
3). Profanity (3rd commandment): condemned 4 times
4). Honoring parents (5th commandment) is taught 6 times
5). Murder (6th commandment) condemned 6 times
6). Adultery (7th commandment) condemned 12 times
7). Theft (8th commandment) condemned 4 times
8). False Witness (9th commandment) condemned 4 times
9). Covetousness (10th commandment) condemned 9 times

The Command to Keep the Seventh-Day Sabbath Holy is not mentioned once! In addition, there are literally HUNDREDS of other Old Covenant laws that are no longer listed.

But we are under a law, and we are under an authority.

Hebrews 13:17: Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Do you obey this text… do you obey the leaders of God’s one and only Church that was founded nearly 2000 years ago? Or do you continue to try to follow your own truth, using your own intellect… rather than uniting with the Body of Christ?

 

[theresa_bloom]

While all of these posts are interesting, I find the spirit of this thread to be argumentative and egotistical. Picture this: the Lord Jesus Christ is sitting next to all of you, reading your posts and wishing someone would show His love. Trying to prove a matter of faith is rather like explaining your journey to someone by showing them your shoes.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Me thinks you need a better understanding of Rev. 14:12 and 12:17. These texts don’t mention the 10 Commandments. I know that in order to support your man made doctrines, you have to insert “Ten” into the text, however, it simply is not there for the rest of us who are not trying to twist it to support Adventist doctrine. Strike two!

Nan S:

Jesus says the whole of the law is contained in just two commandments, so we no longer have ten but just two.

So, what I’m hearing you folks say is that the ten commandmets have been done away with and replaced with Jesus laws of love God and love neighbor. Wow, Ok let’s look at John 14:15 Jesus says; 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. Under your theory this would read; If you love me, love me. I don’t know it just doesn’t make sense. And one thing Jesus always does is make sense.

Matt 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says here that He has not come to destroy the law but fulfill it, then He goes on till the end of the chapter explaining and expanding on various aspects of the ten commandments. Doesn’t sound done away with to me.

Luke 18:18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Here when asked what we should do to gain eternal life. Jesus answers: Keep the ten commandments. Why, Because John 14:15 doesn’t say If you love me, love me. It says If you love me keep my commandments. Because keeping the ten commandment is how we show the world that we love Jesus and have accepted Him as our Lord and Savior.

SDA2RC beware on whom ye call strikes, lest they be called on thee.

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

Ok let’s look at John 14:15 Jesus says; 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. Under your theory this would read; If you love me, love me. I don’t know it just doesn’t make sense. And one thing Jesus always does is make sense. .

Richard… this is another example of pulling a verse out of context. Lets read what John says.

Chapter 13 the Apostles are commanded to:

• Vs 15 Wash each other’s feet
• Vs 34: A NEW Commandments… Love one another as Christ has loved them.
  Chapter 14 - Same conversation
  *Vs 1 Do not let your heart be troubled
  *Vs 1 - believe in God and believe also in me.
• Vs 11 - BElieve that I am in the Father and the father is in me.

**So he gives them all these commands… then says… if you love me… keep my commandments. **

What commandments? THE ONES HE JUST GAVE!!!

He is not talking about the 10 Commandments… that is no where in the context of this passage!

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Jesus says here that He has not come to destroy the law but fulfill it, then He goes on till the end of the chapter explaining and expanding on various aspects of the ten commandments. Doesn’t sound done away with to me.

Richard,
Christ does not say that they wouldnt be done away with…** he said they would be done away with when ALL BE FULFILLED!!** (Vs 18)

This verse is not teaching that they are permanent it is teaching that When Christs mission was complete… they would be abolished and that we are responsible for more…

Christ said “IT IS FINISHED”. I believe him! Do you?

Galatians 3:19 gives the purpose of the Law. It says: “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.”

The law was given 430 years after Abraham at Sinai according to scripture, if it was not given until 430 years after Abraham then it was not something known prior to the Exodus, and is not eternal.

“What I mean is this: **The law, introduced 430 years later, **does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.” Galatians 3:17-18.

The Law had a definite beginning time (430 years after Abraham) and a definite ending time, --When the promised Seed (Christ, vs. 19) came.

Here when asked what we should do to gain eternal life. Jesus answers: Keep the ten commandments. Why, Because John 14:15 doesn’t say If you love me, love me. It says If you love me keep my commandments. Because keeping the ten commandment is how we show the world that we love Jesus and have accepted Him as our Lord and Savior.

No… He asked the man if he kept the LAW because he was a JEW who was under the law!! LOL HE also then told him to sell everything he owned and give it to the poor. Let me ask you Richard… do you have any possessions?

SDA2RC beware on whom ye call strikes, lest they be called on thee.

I love it when you say “lest”.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Some more thoughts
If we eliminate the law we have no gage, we have no yardstick, we have nothing to measure what love is save our own sin polluted world view. How does the commandment to love God play out if we don’t have the commandment to have no gods before the one true God or to not make graven images to bow down before them or to not take His name in vain or to remember His Sabbath day. I mean how do we love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind if we don’t have the commandments to show us how to do that. Do we make it up for ourselves or are we to take His lead and be obedient to Gods ten commandments.

In Christ Richard

 

[mercygate]

Some more thoughts
If we eliminate the law we have no gage, we have no yardstick, we have nothing to measure what love is save our own sin polluted world view. How does the commandment to love God play out if we don’t have the commandment to have no gods before the one true God or to not make graven images to bow down before them or to not take His name in vain or to remember His Sabbath day. I mean how do we love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind if we don’t have the commandments to show us how to do that. Do we make it up for ourselves or are we to take His lead and be obedient to Gods ten commandments.

In Christ Richard

This is a very Catholic position in that we recognize the embodiment of the divine and natural moral law in the Commandments. I think in regards to the sore spot of the SDA position in relation to the Sabbath, “my commandments” hinge upon Christ as the perfect law and He IS our Sabbath and our Sabbath rest. He fulfills the law and “makes all things new.”

 

[SDA2RC]

Some more thoughts
If we eliminate the law we have no gage, we have no yardstick, we have nothing to measure what love is save our own sin polluted world view. How does the commandment to love God play out if we don’t have the commandment to have no gods before the one true God or to not make graven images to bow down before them or to not take His name in vain or to remember His Sabbath day. I mean how do we love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind if we don’t have the commandments to show us how to do that. Do we make it up for ourselves or are we to take His lead and be obedient to Gods ten commandments.

In Christ Richard

Richard,
We dont eliminate the Law… God did! What your doing is presenting a common logical fallacy called a false dichotomy. The dichotomy you have presented is that we either have a law and can measure what love is, and a gage, and a yardstick. Or we have no law and we have nothing!

The real dichotomy for the Christian is between the Old And New Covenants.

The law of God changed depending on the time period throughout history. The covenant of Abraham was different than the covenant with the Jews, which is different from the New Covenant. Just because we are no longer under the Old Covenant, does not mean that we are under no law at all. In fact more is expected of us now. Trust me… there is more expected of myself as a Catholic than there was as an Adventist. It doesn’t get easier! My wife feels the same!

Imagine that you left the United States and visited Canada. Just because you are no longer under United States law, does not mean that you are under no law at all.

The laws change, some are the same, some are different, but you are still under a law. This is the same with the Old and New Covenant. Just because we are no longer under the Old Covenant does not mean that we are no longer under any covenant. The laws have changed, some are the same, some are different, but we are definitely under law.

Further, we don’t have to “measure our love” by a law… we measure it by Christ! He is our standard, your yard stick, our gage… our relationship with him and to other people.

Let me tell you… the first time Richard, that you sit in a confessional and tell someone your sins honestly and humbly, you will realize first what a great gift confession is… but second… how sinful you are! You dont need the Old Covenant for that, the Spirit will convict you of your sins.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Some more thoughts
If we eliminate the law we have no gage, we have no yardstick, we have nothing to measure what love is save our own sin polluted world view. How does the commandment to love God play out if we don’t have the commandment to have no gods before the one true God or to not make graven images to bow down before them or to not take His name in vain or to remember His Sabbath day. I mean how do we love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind if we don’t have the commandments to show us how to do that. Do we make it up for ourselves or are we to take His lead and be obedient to Gods ten commandments.

In Christ Richard

For one Richard no man ever kept the law, that is why Jesus saved us from the Law that demands a life, but We are no longer under the Law, thanks be to Jesus sacrifice, we are baptised, dead to the law, and raised in Jesus Christ. For if God is for us who can be against us. Please reference scriptures below;

Romans 13:8
2 Owe nothing to anyone, **except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. **
9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10
**Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law. **

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end 2 of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.

Romans 8:1
1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2
For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:14
For sin is not to have any power over you, **since you are not under the law but under grace. **

1 Corinthians 2:12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13
And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 7
14
**Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone.
16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

Galatians 3:10
8 For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.”
11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
12
But the law does not depend on faith; rather, “the one who does these things will live by them.”
13
**Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,” **14
that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, **so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. **

Galatians 2;2
I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? 3
3
Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4

Galatians 2:16
(yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 16

**For through the law I died to the law, 19 that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; **
20
**yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me.
21
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. **

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Some more thoughts
If we eliminate the law we have no gage, we have no yardstick, we have nothing to measure what love is save our own sin polluted world view. How does the commandment to love God play out if we don’t have the commandment to have no gods before the one true God or to not make graven images to bow down before them or to not take His name in vain or to remember His Sabbath day. I mean how do we love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind if we don’t have the commandments to show us how to do that. Do we make it up for ourselves or are we to take His lead and be obedient to Gods ten commandments.

In Christ Richard

Richard,

Jesus told us and showed us how. Jesus fulfilled the law, and walked among us and showed us how to live and how to love. His life is the gage, the yardstick by which we measure in our own lives the extent of true Godly life and true Godly love that we have for God and each other!

How sad that you have missed this…and I mean that in all sincerity. Jesus walking on this earth, and us looking at His life and example is the Law of Love, and the Law incarnate, and the law for us to follow. Moses and other prophets in the Old Testament teaching us about the ways of God and the Messiah to come, in contrast to Jesus showing us how to live and love, is like calling someone on the phone for instructions on how to fix your computer, in contrast to a person coming into your home, sitting next to you and showing you how to fix it. One does not negate the other, the latter fulfills more intimately and personally the former…they complilment each other!!

1 Corinthians 13:1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Galatians 5:16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[Nan_S]

Dear Nan S
Thank you for the friendly letter.

Happy day

Friedrich

I didn’t thank you earlier for your kind words and good wishes. Please allow me to do so now. :tiphat: Yes, I did have a decent day.

Well, almost decent. Other than smashing my thumb in a door this morning and dumping my whole coke on the carpet at lunchtime. At least the coke was sugar-free…

May your day tomorrow be better than mine was today.

I hope you are not saying that Jesus’ death made it OK for us to murder, steal, covet, dishonour our parents etc! Those moral laws are part of Jesus’ very character, and though we are saved by grace, the obedience to those laws does not save us, but makes us FIT FOR HEAVEN!

I thought of one more reply to this as the day went by. It’s not so much a rejoinder as it is a clarification, mostly because I don’t know enough about what you’ve been told about us.

Catholics are not amongst the groups who subscribe to “once saved, always saved, God turns a blind eye towards any future sins.” Some groups take that to an extreme and even argue that a Christian who has been “saved” can sin without consequence. We find that an abhorrent distortion.

The theology that God turns a blind eye to the sins of a “saved” person was a distortion invented by Martin Luther. Catholics have always held that we must endure to the end to be saved, and that if we are guilty of subsequent sins we must repent of them and ask forgiveness.

 

[fbl9]

.

Luke 18:18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Here when asked what we should do to gain eternal life. Jesus answers: Keep the ten commandments. Why, Because John 14:15 doesn’t say If you love me, love me. It says If you love me keep my commandments. Because keeping the ten commandment is how we show the world that we love Jesus and have accepted Him as our Lord and Savior.

In Christ Richard

FBL9:may i ask Richard whhat else did Jesus say to gain eternal life,“yet thou lackest…” what is the rest?oh my gosh it sounds like dare i say it “WORKS”.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear SDA2C

Thank you for your extensive writing on laws of the Bible. I appreciate your view, but need to clarify some things.
Laws, whether written on stone or not, are still laws. I was merely trying to show you that THERE ARE DIFFERENT LAWS.

Try this example: You have a bunch of KEYS – some for your CAR, some for your HOUSE. ALL=KEYS! BUT THEY HAVE DIFFERENT USES.

Take the ``ceremonial’’ laws – this is merely a coined phrase to describe their FUNCTION – read them up in the Pentateuch, especially Leviticus. They cover many topics. The serious' ones are about FEAST DAYS, that were designed by God FOR A FUNCTION -- TO POINT TO THE COMING MESSIAH! Take the Passover feast, it fits EXACTLY with the Passover feast when Jesus died! Without going into all the details, these feasts had ceremonial’ Sabbaths attached to them, fixed to a date rather than a weekly day (like Xmas which falls on different days every year). They were HOLY DAYS, pointing to Christ’s death, resurrection etc. A wonderful set of `lessons’ to teach about the coming Messiah – but when the Messiah had come, their use was not needed anymore! These laws were nailed to the cross.

The Moral Law or 10 Commandments obviously are a different set of KEYS with a DIFFERENT FUNCTION – THEY ARE BASED ON 2 PRINCIPLES – LOVE FOR GOD (1-4) AND LOVE FOR OUR NEIGHBOUR (5-10), and are a MIRROR/SCHOOLMASTER to show us where our `spiritual faces’ are dirty. Do we still need this mirror/key today? You bet. Imagine what our world would be in if the values taught in the Ten Commandments were dropped – by saying God’s laws were done away, we are actually promoting a lawless society, which could lead to disastrous results for this planet!

By the way, somebody kept referring to the 10 Commandments as the ``Jewish Law’’ – please do not limit God to such a degree!
Check your Bible – the Jews only entered the stage thousands of years after Eden. Even Caleb, the first born man on this earth, was a murderer, and God told him so – if there were no laws guiding their love for their neighbour, do you think God would have bothered to curse Cain?

God bless,

Friedrich