Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Protestant101]

Dear Friedrich, my brother,

I am sorry, but that statement above is wrong. When people keep God’s law, the 10 commandments, it may change the way people behave. But please make no mistake about it…It is Jesus and Him in us and us in Him, through the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and receiving His body, blood, soul, and divinity through the gift of the Lord’s Supper that make us fit for heaven.

The law changes behavior…Jesus changes our hearts and minds…there is a big difference. Only Jesus can accomplish what you state above…not the law.

God bless all,

While it is true that no amount of “obedience” can make one like Jesus; it is equally true that no true obedience is possible without Jesus.

But what really concerns me here is this:

“receiving His body, blood, soul, and divinity through the gift of the Lord’s Supper that make us fit for heaven.”

This is certainly not how the Bible tells us to partake of His nature.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have learned a lot from Catholics who have left the Catholic faith to become Adventists. I have not yet met one who could be classed as someone who hates Catholics or anyone else but what they have usually received from their former Catholic friends was not “the heart of Jesus.”

I can respect your opinion if this was your experience. I have had many close friends who were Catholic, and left the sacramental lifestyle for a glorious bible study in non denominations, and Protestantism. Their pastors have instructed them to refrain from speaking to me, it was heart breaking to lose such great friendships. My point is, My x Catholic friends who I grew up with, did not have a clue to what The Truth of the Catholic church taught. They got informed about the Catholic faith by:what their new non Catholic christian friends told them, you know the misinformed truth, about the pope, Eucharist (real presence), the saints etc. Many of them became pastors. I got invited to hear one preach, and I could not believe his testimony, My pastor friend misinformed his entire community about Catholicism, he spoke as if he was an expert on Catholicism, and none of it was true!. I talked to him after the service, and I informed him, that the Catholic church does not believe or teach the way he misinformed his community. He justified it, by stating that is the way He saw it!, but he forgot to tell his community that. Get my point, What is an opinion and what is fact, does not necessary equal the Truth.

I stated these xSDA’s on this forum are brave, because they went from a Positive and confident SDA tradition of scripture and knowledge, and left it. This is not easy to do, and needs to be commended by such brave souls. So their is something in the Catholic church that draws those who truly have a heart for Jesus. Not knowledge, a wealth and health ministry, or legalistic laws kept these XSDA’s from seeking the fullness of the Truth in the body of Jesus Christ. You know St. Anthony, heard one Mass in his life, and converted his life, buy selling and giving everything to the poor, and lived a life giving testimony for the love of Jesus In the Catholic church. These xSDA forum participants are no short of a miracle in their conversion to Catholicism.

Peace

 

[Protestant101]

Hello everyone,

As a SDA I always felt it necessary to always be working to convert someone to the “truth”…it was necessary. Then I began to understand that conversion is God’s work…God leading a person on their individual journey…and who am I to interfere with God’s work.

As a Catholic, I now feel it necessary to always be praying for someone to find the “truth”…the real Truth, Jesus. God will lead all who sincerely seek Him…let God do His work and me do mine (pray without ceasing and present an honest testimony). Where ever they are on that journey is where God has them and is with them…leading. Of course we are all free to leave that leading if we want to.

I would be surprised if these two “differences” you describe had anything to do with being one denomination or the other.

To be called brave for converting from SDA to RCC, at least for me is not accurate. I faced no threats from anyone in that process…I was fortunate. I do know of stories where threats were presented to people considering joining the SDA Church, and I do know stories where threats were presented to people considering joining the RCC. I know of a young SDA boy in an African country in the 70s who was beat to death by soldiers for refusing to not worship on the 7th day sabbath (a threat to the authority of the powers that be). I know of a RC priest who was murdered by soldiers in Iraq, just recently, for refusing to stop ministering the Eucharist (a threat to the authority of the powers that be). There are many many stories like this for many many different faiths.

So NO, bravery had nothing to do with my choice.

This is quite true; how can it be attributed to “bravery” or any such thing?

I will say one thing in reference to the OP. You guys should not worry so much about Doug Batchelor and the like. There are far worse enemies out there. Just the other night, I was on an anti-Catholic web site. Done, supposedly by “Protestants.” But the stuff on that site actually made me sick. I am serious! It was revolting and gross. I am a “tough as nails” kind of dude; but the content of this site literally nauseated me. It was so perverted and disgusting.

Some of you here know that when I decide I need to; I can really wag my tongue; and boy, would I like to set the fellow straight who has that site! But, like other anti- (whatever) he does not even have any conact info on his site. Makes me think he is scared of something. He should be. So you guys need to know that not all who say they are “Protestant” really are, and not all of us would ever support such garbage,

It is quite another thing though to have people label you personally, just because your doctrines oppose their’s and denounce their leadership. Doug is actually a really Christ-like young man whether some here like it or not - some here would of course get all militant about that thought; but atleast with him I would know I could sit down and pray and fellowship; but I would seriously want to take a strip out of the psychotic who has this anti-Catholic site I was referring to.

I think people need to start distinguishing better between opposing doctrines, and personally opposing and characterizing people. God would never approve of the ungulate theology called “apologetics” that we see all over the place. But if one opposes certain beliefs, and sees the originators of the belief as “evil” for their involvement with it; how can that be construed as hate against the entire denomination under that person/s?

 

[Protestant101]

My pastor friend misinformed his entire community about Catholicism, he spoke as if he was an expert on Catholicism, and none of it was true!. I talked to him after the service, and I informed him, that the Catholic church does not believe or teach the way he misinformed his community. He justified it, by stating that is the way He saw it!, but he forgot to tell his community that. Get my point, What is an opinion and what is fact, does not necessary equal the Truth.

Well; now you have some idea how we feel when ex_Adventists do the same. It is impossible to be an “expert” on one or the other denomination, unless you are a solid part of it., and most of the former SDAs here certainly do pride themselves as being “experts” on Adventism, just because they used to be one. But it also doesn’t mean that everything an Adventist says about Catholic beliefs are wrong, just because of their denomination! (which most of the ex SDAs seem to think. A favorite “apologetics” tactic here is to just say that the Adventist (Protestant) does not “understand” the Catholic belief, even if they quote the same things as a Catholic.

their is something in the Catholic church that draws those who truly have a heart for Jesus. Peace

This I can agree with. it is often NOT the particular doctrine or the specific belief that brings them in. God has His people in all denominations. This is quite evident from many texts; but one of my favorites for showing this would be Rev.18:4

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

In reply to the first paragraph on how we keep the Sabbath – read my posting to Nan S on the Why is Sunday instead of Saturday… thread. In one sentence – Keeping the Sabbath is a DELIGHT – 24 hours to spend with the One you Love! Why would we want to lose out on that?

(Gabriel of 12
I am sad for you, why would you just settle for one 24 hr day with God, when you can have him all the time, in everyminute of the day. An hour each day, does not pass without any communion with God. I share him in my work, rest or play, especially on the Lord’s Day, when I have communion with him, and the rest of the world. But that still does not answer the question I posed? Do you or do you not obey the commandments to keep the sabbath according to the scriptures?)

Regarding your law/grace dichotomy – as far as marriage AND the New Covenant relationship with Jesus is concerned – LAW DOES NOT STAND IN OPPOSITION TO LOVE! LAW = BASED ON LOVE!

Let me say it again. You marry someone because of LOVE.
Let me say it again. You `marry’ Christ because of LOVE.

Let me say it again. You DO good things to someone because of LOVE!
Let me say it again. You DO the commandments for God because of LOVE!

Commandments, kind deeds DO NOT MAKE GOD/YOUR SPOUSE LOVE YOU MORE!

So where does the Curse/Old Covenant negativity come from? God? NO. Man? YES!
Let me say it clearly: GOD’S REQUIREMENTS FOR SALVATION HAVE NEVER CHANGED SINCE ADAM AND EVE SINNED! WE ARE ONLY SAVED BY FAITH IN JESUS AS OUR SAVIOUR!

The Old/New Covenant problem lies on the part of MAN, WHO TRIED TO LEGALLY KEEP THE LAW IN ORDER TO BE SAVED – that was impossible, and a curse to him. Jesus became this curse for us on the cross, and where in the OT the salvation was by faith in the Saviour to come, now in the NT the `New’ Covenant is merely salvation by faith in the Saviour who has already come!, but NOT BY LEGALISM – BY FAITH!

SO WHY BOTHER TO KEEP GOD’S LAWS? THEY HELP RESTORE GOD’S IMAGE IN US, MAKE US FIT TO REPRESENT HIM BETTER, HERE AND IN HEAVEN.

God bless

Friedrich

I respectfully disagree with your discourse about Marriage, Love and Law. Because you do not finish it. What you explain about these topics comes from an understanding from the flesh or natural law, your meaning has limits because it pertains to the flesh. What Jesus does is fulfill and perfect the Law by elevating it into the Spirit, just as he did his flesh symbolic of the natural law in his death, then resurrected his body in the Spirit making them eternal.

The Law was placed to convict sin. The new testament is hidden in the Old testament, and the Old testament is revealed in the New testament. The old covenant prefigured or shadowed the greater things to come and be revealed by God, using the Law and the Prophet announcements of the “Day of Lord” in the New Covenant in Jesus,Which we Catholics celebrate on Sunday the 8th day of a new creation. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the prophets in his death and resurrection. I have died to the Law in my baptism through Jesus Christ, and resurrected in Jesus Christ in the Spirit from the baptismal waters. It is no longer I who live but Jesus Christ who lives in me.

Without much discourse I will leave you with scripture that qualifies my statement;

RomansChapter 8: 1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2
**For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. **
3
For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4
**so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. **
5
For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit.
6
The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace.
7
For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it;
8
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9
**But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. **
10
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. 12
Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14
2 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
15
For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, “Abba, 3 Father!”
16
**The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. **

Peace

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Well; now you have some idea how we feel when ex_Adventists do the same. It is impossible to be an “expert” on one or the other denomination, unless you are a solid part of it., and most of the former SDAs here certainly do pride themselves as being “experts” on Adventism, just because they used to be one.

**I dont know if you know these XSDA’s on these forums, but they would fall in the category of expert in my opinion. Have you read their posts, they are most informative and detailed, in fact their biblical skills are a credit to their past SDAism, They took their knowledge and biblical skills to another level and furthered it the Catholic church, and anyone can tell by reading their posts. You cannot contest their education and experience from past SDA. Iam very impressed with what they share here, and you should to being an SDA yourself. If I were you I would not go try and discredit the credentials of anyone here. I spoke from my personal experience, you appear to be crossing a line by applying my personal experience to what has been displayed here on this forum. They are not the same. **
IF an adventist wants to be correct all the time in quoting Catholic beliefs. Then quote the catechism but dont interpret the catechism, and you or any adventist will never be wrong.

This I can agree with. it is often NOT the particular doctrine or the specific belief that brings them in. God has His people in all denominations. This is quite evident from many texts; but one of my favorites for showing this would be Rev.18:4

**You have a right to your opinion here also. I dont think God has his people in all denominations, or else he would not have instituted The Catholic church on earth. I will agree with you that all people are no matter what they are, are all God’s people. It is the will of the individual when they hear God’s calling, to make sure it is of God and not man to follow

Peace.**

 

[SDA2RC]

Well; now you have some idea how we feel when ex_Adventists do the same. It is impossible to be an “expert” on one or the other denomination, unless you are a solid part of it., and most of the former SDAs here certainly do pride themselves as being “experts” on Adventism, just because they used to be one. But it also doesn’t mean that everything an Adventist says about Catholic beliefs are wrong, just because of their denomination! (which most of the ex SDAs seem to think. A favorite “apologetics” tactic here is to just say that the Adventist (Protestant) does not “understand” the Catholic belief, even if they quote the same things as a Catholic.

This I can agree with. it is often NOT the particular doctrine or the specific belief that brings them in. God has His people in all denominations. This is quite evident from many texts; but one of my favorites for showing this would be Rev.18:4

Protestant101,
I would agree with you for the most part… being an ex-SDA does not make one an expert… just like being an ex-Catholic hardly makes one an expert. However, I will say that most of the people that I have met which have converted to Catholicism from Adventism are very well versed. Most (myself excepted) have studied theology at Adventist Universities and the reason of the conversion was becuase if Biblical study. To convert from Adventism to Catholicism for truly doctrinal purposes requires a lot of study and wrestling with scripture and history.

From what I have seen, and based on my 30 years in Adventism, most of the Ex-Adventists on this site understand Adventist theology quite well.

I have seen a few misrepresenations of Adventist theology on this forum, but not from Ex-Adventists, and those I have seen I have corrected. It has been a long time… that being said… I do not keep up on all the posts.

There are still a lot of undecided issues in Adventism… for example… is the Sanctuary in heaven literal or symbolic. Another is the role of EGW in Adventism… I have seen both extreme’s. ignoring her, and making her basically the infallible intrepreter of scripture… the latter is quickly becoming an obsolete position within the Church, however, as Adventism seeks to become more mainstream.

Even since I left the Church… there have been changes… a larger surge of progessive Adventism has been coming forward… in essence denying the distinctive doctrines of the Church and trying to make it little more than a Seventh-Day baptist Church that welcomes gay marriage, etc.

It is an interesting denomination and I still buy their books and read the literature/websites to see the changes that are taking place. When Adventists catch up with the church’s “scholars” it will be very different indeed.

 

[Protestant101]

**You have a right to your opinion here also. I dont think God has his people in all denominations, or else he would not have instituted The Catholic church on earth. **

OK then, can you give a scripture or other reference to support this statement?

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101,
I would agree with you for the most part… being an ex-SDA does not make one an expert… just like being an ex-Catholic hardly makes one an expert. However, I will say that most of the people that I have met which have converted to Catholicism from Adventism are very well versed.

When Adventists catch up with the church’s “scholars” it will be very different indeed.

Wow! We found just a little smidgin of agreement there! I think though that the “howevers” of such agreements sort of nullifies any agreement though. IN such cases, “well versed” simply means good at tripping up the opponent.

I have met the odd Catholic who really had the right idea. No. I don’t mean the standard, expected doctrinal idea; but the practical side of the “doctrines” which leads or should lead, to both parties walking away from each other at the end of the discussion, and truly believing that they had just experienced Jesus and His kindness through the other person.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I would be surprised if these two “differences” you describe had anything to do with being one denomination or the other.?

Hi 101,

I understand what you are saying. The difference probably has much to do with maturing as a Christian, and the softening that comes with age. However, there was a strong emphasis in the SDA church for “soul winning”…which can follow many avenues of pursuit…but the end result is to bring people into the church. I know from my own experience, that family members of mine who visited what ever SDA church I belonged to at the time, were actively and constantly pursued to come to meetings, events, and be baptized. Many of them turned away. Perhaps “soul winning” is not as important a part of the SDA church as it was 14 years ago. I cannot speak to what is going on there today.

In my experience with the RCC, I was never approached or pursued to come to meetings, events, and be baptized. In my experience there was a very different spirit, involved with visitors, between the two churches.

IThis is quite true; how can it be attributed to “bravery” or any such thing?

I said that bravery was not a part of MY experience, either in joining the SDA chruch or the RCC. I was fortunate. I do know of instances where bravery was a very big part of joining the SDA church as well as joining the RCC for some people. It was just not a part of my experience. There are those who make brave choices in the face of threats of being estranged from their families, losing jobs, or even worse. There may be some converts on this forum who faced those choices bravely to follow Jesus…if they did, then they are brave. I have not yet been called to be brave for my faith.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

From what I have seen, and based on my 30 years in Adventism, most of the Ex-Adventists on this site understand Adventist theology quite well.

There are still a lot of undecided issues in Adventism… for example… is the Sanctuary in heaven literal or symbolic. Another is the role of EGW in Adventism… I have seen both extreme’s. ignoring her, and making her basically the infallible intrepreter of scripture… the latter is quickly becoming an obsolete position within the Church, however, as Adventism seeks to become more mainstream.

Even since I left the Church… there have been changes… a larger surge of progessive Adventism has been coming forward… in essence denying the distinctive doctrines of the Church and trying to make it little more than a Seventh-Day baptist Church that welcomes gay marriage, etc.

It is an interesting denomination and I still buy their books and read the literature/websites to see the changes that are taking place. When Adventists catch up with the church’s “scholars” it will be very different indeed.

Brandon:

As you know, I was born an SDA and was 31 when I converted to Catholicism. I attended Andrews University and had a minor in religion (which had the same number of credits as if I had a major in it.) So you are correct when you point out that most SDAs converting to Catholicism are well catechized in the denomination’s beliefs. One SDA woman who converted to Catholicism was working on her doctorate in theology at the time. She became a discalced Carmelite. Interestingly enough, it has been my experience that Catholics who become SDAs are seldom well catechized, and this includes some religious.

As to the changes in the SDA denomination, I have watched these changes over the last with amazement. The denomination I see today (with the exception of the independents) is nothing like the denomination that I left. To my mind, it has lost its identity. Whenever, I consider these changes (doctrinal not cultureal) in the SDA denomination, it makes me thank God all the more for the teaching authority of the Church. These changes in the SDA prove that they are not the Church, because they have no authority. In fact, some of their recent changes show that not even their prophetess has any authority within the denomination.

Marsha

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

OK then, can you give a scripture or other reference to support this statement?

Mathew 16:17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
**And so I say to you, you are Peter (present day Pope), and upon this rock I will build my church, **13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

It is a written historical fact, that all the popes in the Catholic church are succeeded from St. Peter without unbroken succession.

There were never any other denominations in Christianity until man discovered his freewill outside of God for the next 1600 years. Then after 1600 years of Catholicism, man aged to be a 5 year old, and decided to have his own way of being a Christian. In protestantism man is probably 51/2 years old, and still demands his own way outside of the Church God instituted. Man in the noncatholic arena ages from 3yrs to 7 yrs old. Catholic laity are still infants feeding from their Mother (Church) milk in their Mothers arms, some are able to eat meat, but these depend on Mother church for nuturing and discipline in the ways of God, Just as an infant loves and depends on Mother, so does Mother guarantee what is best that pleases the Father. The magesterium in the Catholic church are our elders and they know what is best for our faith and morals, because they have been around 2000 years.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Brandon:

As you know, I was born an SDA and was 31 when I converted to Catholicism. I attended Andrews University and had a minor in religion (which had the same number of credits as if I had a major in it.) So you are correct when you point out that most SDAs converting to Catholicism are well catechized in the denomination’s beliefs. One SDA woman who converted to Catholicism was working on her doctorate in theology at the time. She became a discalced Carmelite. Interestingly enough, it has been my experience that Catholics who become SDAs are seldom well catechized, and this includes some religious.

As to the changes in the SDA denomination, I have watched these changes over the last with amazement. The denomination I see today (with the exception of the independents) is nothing like the denomination that I left. To my mind, it has lost its identity. Whenever, I consider these changes (doctrinal not cultureal) in the SDA denomination, it makes me thank God all the more for the teaching authority of the Church. These changes in the SDA prove that they are not the Church, because they have no authority. In fact, some of their recent changes show that not even their prophetess has any authority within the denomination.

Marsha

Marsha,

You make good points with which I concur. I have a B.A. in theology from Columbia Union College. My conversion to Catholicism from Adventism was purely based on doctrinal issues, as was my initial conversion to Adventism. When, as a SDA I gave Bible studies to someone, I always asked them the following question…“Now that you have received more “light” on understanding the Bible, what would hold you back from following that “light” if you love Jesus?”

When I began to seriously understand Catholicism, and received more “light” on understanding the Bible, I had to ask myself what would hold me back from following that “light” if I loved Jesus. To ignore that would have made me a hypocrite.

As for the the changes in the SDA denomination over the past 30 years, you are correct that it has lost its original identity.

One example I pointed out earlier was the wedding ring issue which was hot when I was in college. The SDA church taught pretty much from its inception that a Christian should not wear a wedding ring…and then they changed that. I always wondered why the remant church proclaiming the final call to mankind before the second coming of Jesus, the remnant church with the God given truth for mankind, was dealing with an issue so seemingly trival. Were they right to begin with on this teaching and their church moved into apostacy? Or, if they were wrong about this from the beginning and needed to change, how might this reflect on other teachings?

What do all these changes imply about the original message?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

But what really concerns me here is this: This is certainly not how the Bible tells us to partake of His nature.

The “this” being referred to is receiving Jesus body, blood, soul, and divinity through the Lord’s Supper.

And this should really concern you my brother. And it certainly is how the Bible tells us to partake of, not only His nature, but His sacrifice on the cross, and His resurrection and victory over sin and death. Along with the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I won’t go into that discussion again because the previous posts in this thread go into great detail. But I will reference John 6 which document Jesus’ teaching on this matter.

I would ask you this 101:

How do you think the Bible tells us to partake of His nature?

 

[Protestant101]

Marsha,

You make good points with which I concur. I have a B.A. in theology from Columbia Union College. My conversion to Catholicism from Adventism was purely based on doctrinal issues, as was my initial conversion to Adventism. When, as a SDA I gave Bible studies to someone, I always asked them the following question…“Now that you have received more “light” on understanding the Bible, what would hold you back from following that “light” if you love Jesus?”

I don’t have time to answer all of your posts/comments to me, but this one you made to Marsha seems like it will be a good spot to jump in. I have taken many courses and studies over the years; and have at various times held roles such as Literature Evangelist, Lay Pastor, Sabbath School Teacher, etc. As I read your comments here; I see someone who was not trained correctly, as to how Bible study, and “soul-winning” should be done - kind of like how you guys say that many who go from Catholic to SDA are not “catechized” very well.

I was a bit of a “rebel” if you will, I did not “obtain” baptisms or get people into the Church; yet during a time of war a few years ago; I had 32 people that I was studying the Bible with, in addition to a large class at the church. Most of them just asked to go to Church on their own, after studying the Bible, both on their own, or with me. People usually fall in love with Jesus, then go to the Church where they met Him through.

I did not once ask anyone to come to Church or to get baptized; I was fortunate enough to be taught by someone who knew how to reach people for Christ, not necessarily for “the Church.” I still use this method today. People must see something in me, atleast once in a while; many times I have total strangers come up to me and say: “you look like a Christian…” and they would then express some question or need that they wanted help with. I rarely make any effort to “solicit” studies or “witnessing” opportunities, it just happens. My understanding (from the Bible) is that you have to identify with people to “reach them” at all. (as did Jesus, Daniel and others). There are lots of Adventists who have a similar understanding, and I would say that they reach many more for Christ than do the stodges who fight over baptisms at Crusades. You were likely influenced somewhat from such people.

When I began to seriously understand Catholicism, and received more “light” on understanding the Bible, I had to ask myself what would hold me back from following that “light” if I loved Jesus. To ignore that would have made me a hypocrite.

So once again; I don’t see it as a denomination that has influenced you to approach your “evangelism” as you do now. I think it was Jesus, and His Word.

As for the the changes in the SDA denomination over the past 30 years, you are correct that it has lost its original identity.

One example I pointed out earlier was the wedding ring issue which was hot when I was in college. The SDA church taught pretty much from its inception that a Christian should not wear a wedding ring…and then they changed that. I always wondered why the remant church proclaiming the final call to mankind before the second coming of Jesus, the remnant church with the God given truth for mankind, was dealing with an issue so seemingly trival. Were they right to begin with on this teaching and their church moved into apostacy? Or, if they were wrong about this from the beginning and needed to change, how might this reflect on other teachings?

What do all these changes imply about the original message?

The “changes” you speak of have been noticed by the world, to be sure. It would be hard to deny that something is happening. I don’t really know why one would feel the need to deny it either. To me, as I look out over the vast sea of opinions on the changes within Adventism; I see a hundred different interpretations regarding same. Therefore; I would not feel it to be a reliable source of info should I just go with one opinion over another - especially if the opinions are from ex-Adventists, or disgruntled ones, or most Catholics.

I have said on another thread somewhere that I am somewhat of a history buff; and I enjoy looking into the kinds of history that give an accurate expression to these changes withing the Adventist Church. Granted, your personal experiences within same do count as a part of the picture; yet cannot be used to accurately characterize the denomination - what you say is far too anecdotal for that.

Jesus is the indispensable man; for both our denominations. We see Him from different viewpoints; but if we follow Him at all we will see Him in each other. God is bigger than us. If He is in each of us; He will show through. The trouble starts when one side or the other gets so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.

You characterized the Adventist’s dealing with the wedding ring issues as “trivial;” and to some it may seem as if it is, yet, if one takes an hour to read through the Ask An Apologist Forum, here at CA, you will soon have a vast collection of very trivial things to view. We, as people who would not personally ask such questions, must have a better understanding of how to view others who do feel the need to ask them. Why do you think your Apologists here are so patient, and kind in dealing with all the questions there? It is not right to characterize the people asking, or their Church, based on such “trivial” matters. God is not worried about them; or their questions; He is more worried about you and I and how we will choose to see them and respond to them. I am proud of our Adventist leaders who have the courage to publicly help people deal with the wedding ring questions, and with other, similar matters. It is a very special ministry and calling to help people see the Biblical options and possibilities with all the things in life that concern us.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I don’t have time to answer all of your posts/comments to me, but this one you made to Marsha seems like it will be a good spot to jump in. I have taken many courses and studies over the years; and have at various times held roles such as Literature Evangelist, Lay Pastor, Sabbath School Teacher, etc. As I read your comments here; I see someone who was not trained correctly, as to how Bible study, and “soul-winning” should be done - kind of like how you guys say that many who go from Catholic to SDA are not “catechized” very well.

I was a bit of a “rebel” if you will, I did not “obtain” baptisms or get people into the Church; yet during a time of war a few years ago; I had 32 people that I was studying the Bible with, in addition to a large class at the church. Most of them just asked to go to Church on their own, after studying the Bible, both on their own, or with me. People usually fall in love with Jesus, then go to the Church where they met Him through.

I did not once ask anyone to come to Church or to get baptized; I was fortunate enough to be taught by someone who knew how to reach people for Christ, not necessarily for “the Church.” I still use this method today. People must see something in me, atleast once in a while; many times I have total strangers come up to me and say: “you look like a Christian…” and they would then express some question or need that they wanted help with. I rarely make any effort to “solicit” studies or “witnessing” opportunities, it just happens. My understanding (from the Bible) is that you have to identify with people to “reach them” at all. (as did Jesus, Daniel and others). There are lots of Adventists who have a similar understanding, and I would say that they reach many more for Christ than do the stodges who fight over baptisms at Crusades. You were likely influenced somewhat from such people.

Hi 101,
I appreciate you sharing your experiences above. My experiences in the “soul winning” area were and are similar to yours that you describe and I agree with you as to the approach a Christian should take. In persoanl evangelism, this was my approach. I will say however that there is certainly a type of “pressure” on paid pastors, to produce “results”…and I’m not saying that is necessarily bad, and I certainly understand the need for that. But just maybe that can have a domino effect on personal evangelism. Just my opinion. It gets back to what I have been saying in many of these posts…“by their fruits, you will recognize them”.

So once again; I don’t see it as a denomination that has influenced you to approach your “evangelism” as you do now. I think it was Jesus, and His Word.

Thank you. I hope and pray that is the case.

The “changes” you speak of have been noticed by the world, to be sure. It would be hard to deny that something is happening. I don’t really know why one would feel the need to deny it either. To me, as I look out over the vast sea of opinions on the changes within Adventism; I see a hundred different interpretations regarding same. Therefore; I would not feel it to be a reliable source of info should I just go with one opinion over another - especially if the opinions are from ex-Adventists, or disgruntled ones, or most Catholics.

I have said on another thread somewhere that I am somewhat of a history buff; and I enjoy looking into the kinds of history that give an accurate expression to these changes withing the Adventist Church. Granted, your personal experiences within same do count as a part of the picture; yet cannot be used to accurately characterize the denomination - what you say is far too anecdotal for that.

Jesus is the indispensable man; for both our denominations. We see Him from different viewpoints; but if we follow Him at all we will see Him in each other. God is bigger than us. If He is in each of us; He will show through. The trouble starts when one side or the other gets so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.

You characterized the Adventist’s dealing with the wedding ring issues as “trivial;” and to some it may seem as if it is, yet, if one takes an hour to read through the Ask An Apologist Forum, here at CA, you will soon have a vast collection of very trivial things to view. We, as people who would not personally ask such questions, must have a better understanding of how to view others who do feel the need to ask them. Why do you think your Apologists here are so patient, and kind in dealing with all the questions there? It is not right to characterize the people asking, or their Church, based on such “trivial” matters. God is not worried about them; or their questions; He is more worried about you and I and how we will choose to see them and respond to them. I am proud of our Adventist leaders who have the courage to publicly help people deal with the wedding ring questions, and with other, similar matters. It is a very special ministry and calling to help people see the Biblical options and possibilities with all the things in life that concern us.

You are correct…Jesus is indispensible, and He must be the center of all that we do. I apologize for calling that issue trivial. There are many issues for many different people, and everyone has varying degress of the seriousness of the issues they face. Too often I witnessed how difficult the wedding band issue was for people to call it trivial…so again I apologize. I suppose nothing is trivial if it troubles us.

I don’t expect you to answer all my posts and comments to you…but I would really appreciate it if you would answer the following two questions…when you have some time…I can wait

How do you think the Bible tells us to partake of His nature?

and;

Can you prove from the Bible that the Bible is the only rule of faith?

God bless!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi 101,
I appreciate you sharing your experiences above. My experiences in the “soul winning” area were and are similar to yours that you describe and I agree with you as to the approach a Christian should take. In persoanl evangelism, this was my approach. I will say however that there is certainly a type of “pressure” on paid pastors, to produce “results”…and I’m not saying that is necessarily bad, and I certainly understand the need for that. But just maybe that can have a domino effect on personal evangelism. Just my opinion. It gets back to what I have been saying in many of these posts…“by their fruits, you will recognize them”.

But the thing is, on the personal level, is that it should rarely even be called “evangelism.” In both Old and New Testament; God prefers to call us something like “My witness.” Try looking up the phrase in the Bible.

You are correct…Jesus is indispensible, and He must be the center of all that we do. I apologize for calling that issue trivial. There are many issues for many different people, and everyone has varying degress of the seriousness of the issues they face. Too often I witnessed how difficult the wedding band issue was for people to call it trivial…so again I apologize. I suppose nothing is trivial if it troubles us.

I have learned in some of the nursing and counselling I did in the past, that if someone says “it hurts;” then they are right. This is something we too often dismiss too lightly when people bring up questions that are not important to us.

I don’t expect you to answer all my posts and comments to you…but I would really appreciate it if you would answer the following two questions…when you have some time…I can wait

How do you think the Bible tells us to partake of His nature?

and;

Can you prove from the Bible that the Bible is the only rule of faith?

God bless!!

Regarding the first question; I do need to clarify something from the Catholic viewpoint before I try to answer. Does Catholic teaching include more than just one way to “partake of Christ’s nature?” If no, then would that one way be the “Eucharist?”

Question 2 is an apologetics strawman. Catholics, and yes, many cults, use this very type of question to get people off of the Bible, and onto “other things.” You have studied Adventist theology, so you know that we do not teach that “the Bible is the only rule of faith;” but that we teach the Bible is the ultimate rule of faith, and it is the only sufficient rule of faith, meaning that the Bible can stand alone without other sources, as a rule of faith and practice for Christians. To continually ply Protestants with the dagger of “prove the Bible is the ONLY rule of faith,” is to ignore their true teachings, and refuse to to allow the truth to be known. And you guys talk about us misrepresenting your beliefs!!??

The truth is, and this is from the Bible; is that God speaks to us through His Word, through His creation, through His Holy Spirit; and sometimes, through direct revelation to His people. You know these things already so why the charades with such questions? The thing that Catholics have utterly failed to do is to show how any of God’s methods of speaking to us could still be called “truth” if it disagrees with God’s Word. You know full well that the Bible talks about two types of “tradition;” and one is condemned, the other blessed. You studied this while at the Adventist schools; and now that you have become a Catholic; you choose to ignore it in favor of “converting” Protestants with such leading questions.

 

[Deconi]

Question 2 is an apologetics strawman. Catholics, and yes, many cults, use this very type of question to get people off of the Bible, and onto “other things.” You have studied Adventist theology, so you know that we do not teach that “the Bible is the only rule of faith;” but that we teach the Bible is the ultimate rule of faith, and it is the only sufficient rule of faith, meaning that the Bible can stand alone without other sources, as a rule of faith and practice for Christians. To continually ply Protestants with the dagger of “prove the Bible is the ONLY rule of faith,” is to ignore their true teachings, and refuse to to allow the truth to be known. And you guys talk about us misrepresenting your beliefs!!??

The truth is, and this is from the Bible; is that God speaks to us through His Word, through His creation, through His Holy Spirit; and sometimes, through direct revelation to His people. You know these things already so why the charades with such questions? The thing that Catholics have utterly failed to do is to show how any of God’s methods of speaking to us could still be called “truth” if it disagrees with God’s Word. You know full well that the Bible talks about two types of “tradition;” and one is condemned, the other blessed. You studied this while at the Adventist schools; and now that you have become a Catholic; you choose to ignore it in favor of “converting” Protestants with such leading questions.

How can you justify the claim of strawman when the SDA version of Scriptures, DIFFERS from the other ‘Christians’ version, let alone the Catholic one??

That would require a process to legitimize “your” version!

Sadly, you will find plenty on “straws” in that process!

 

[Protestant101]

How can you justify the claim of strawman when the SDA version of Scriptures, DIFFERS from the other ‘Christians’ version, let alone the Catholic one??

That would require a process to legitimize “your” version!

Sadly, you will find plenty on “straws” in that process!

You have much to learn my friend, much to learn. Hope you have a great day.

 

[Deconi]

I had reason to investigate SDA in 2004 - 2005. Much, I did learn.

**None, absolutely none, was challenging! **

Anything new you may want to tell me, will only ‘teach’ me that SDA is “evolving!”

Thank you for the wish; stormy weather is upon NZ at the moment and your kind regards are noted.