Amazon Synod and Pagan Rituals

[Emeraldlady]

I’ve spent a lot of years in school–Catholic, secular, liberal, conservative, you name it, I’ve been in that classroom. However, I’ve been out of school for about 10 years now and I guess I’m behind the times: “ecotheology” is a term I’d never heard of before today.

Dan

I don’t think I’ve heard of any Catholic ecotheologians.

Nobody had heard of theology of the body until Pope StJPII coined it and to this day there are those who reject the themes and parameters of that also.

But with this issue, it is fairer to lay the blame at StJPII’s feet rather than Francis since it was JPII who initiated the whole sordid idea of regarding the environment through a moral/ethical perspective.

1. In our day, there is a growing awareness that world peace is threatened not only by the arms race, regional conflicts and continued injustices among peoples and nations, but also by a lack of due respect for nature , by the plundering of natural resources and by a progressive decline in the quality of life. The sense of precariousness and insecurity that such a situation engenders is a seedbed for collective selfishness, disregard for others and dishonesty.

Faced with the widespread destruction of the environment, people everywhere are coming to understand that we cannot continue to use the goods of the earth as we have in the past. The public in general as well as political leaders are concerned about this problem, and experts from a wide range of disciplines are studying its causes. Moreover, a new ecological awareness is beginning to emerge which, rather than being downplayed, ought to be encouraged to develop into concrete programmes and initiatives.

2. Many ethical values, fundamental to the development of a peaceful society , are particularly relevant to the ecological question. The fact that many challenges facing the world today are interdependent confirms the need for carefully coordinated solutions based on a morally coherent world view.

For Christians, such a world view is grounded in religious convictions drawn from Revelation. That is why I should like to begin this Message with a reflection on the biblical account of creation. I would hope that even those who do not share these same beliefs will find in these pages a common ground for reflection and action.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...i_mes_19891208_xxiii-world-day-for-peace.html

 

[acanonlawyer]

it was JPII who initiated the whole sordid idea of regarding the environment through a moral/ethical perspective

Sordid? Not a term I would use.

Dan

 

[JimG]

I guess I’d like to see the contents page of a Catholic Ecotheology textbook to get some clarity as to how theologians intend to treat this.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Laudato si’ goes a bit further than that, don’t you think? After all, Catholic theologians have always recognized the responsibility that man has toward the rest of creation, as Adam was not only the head of the human race but also of creation.

It isn’t a question of “who started this,” but of what genuine Catholic stewardship means. And I don’t think it means what modern left-leaning politicians think it means.
[/quote]

All politics aside, I genuinely believe and see that we as a society have become greedy consumers who’ve lost touch with the concept of an ecosystem. That our material greed has consequences for the environment and for less developed societies that heavily rely on environmental health for their survival.

I totally accept that the degradation of the Amazon region is related to western greed and recklessness. If that is being a lefty? I don’t believe it is. I believe that it is being a responsible Christian to acknowledge that. If the Church can highlight the ethical and moral aspects of environmental abuse, that will go a long way to influencing the west to make policy and create initiatives to reign in greed and have genuine empathy with the societies that are oppressed by it.

 

[JimG]

I read of at least one Amazonian tribal chief complaining that the region has plenty of natural resources but will not be allowed to economically develop it as other nations have done because of Western concerns about ecology.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

JPII who initiated the whole sordid idea of regarding the environment through a moral/ethical perspective

Good stewardship of our environment is important,
until it crosses the line into a change of priorities, environment over human life.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I baulk somewhat at the revisionist history here. Pope Francis in Bolivia 2015.

Here I wish to bring up an important issue. Some may rightly say, “When the Pope speaks of colonialism, he overlooks certain actions of the Church”. I say this to you with regret: many grave sins were committed against the native peoples of America in the name of God. My predecessors acknowledged this, CELAM, the Council of Latin American Bishops, has said it, and I too wish to say it. Like Saint John Paul II, I ask that the Church – I repeat what he said – “kneel before God and implore forgiveness for the past and present sins of her sons and daughters”.[6] I would also say, and here I wish to be quite clear, as was Saint John Paul II: I humbly ask forgiveness, not only for the offenses of the Church herself, but also for crimes committed against the native peoples during the so-called conquest of America.

We didn’t have the appreciation for the indigenous cultures and lost a great deal of natural wisdom therein.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I disagree. We have to have a consistent commitment to concrete changes in our society. I believe that we have to call for legislative measures in abortion policy. I believe that as Christians we have to call for legislative protections for the poor and the sick. The Church has always gone further than merely pontificating about we should be doing. The Church needs to be involved in obliging government in promoting Christian values.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I read of at least one Amazonian tribal chief complaining that the region has plenty of natural resources but will not be allowed to economically develop it as other nations have done because of Western concerns about ecology.

I’m quite sure that perspective has been represented at the synod for consideration.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

JPII who initiated the whole sordid idea of regarding the environment through a moral/ethical perspective

Good stewardship of our environment is important,
until it crosses the line into a change of priorities, environment over human life.

But if as is happening now, our first world rights, are trumping the basic human rights of less developed societies.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I never said we shouldn’t take concrete actions; the government should assist the Church in her mission to save souls, of course. But ultimately a society is also made up of individuals, and without individuals first seeking to reform themselves, societal corruption won’t be going away anytime soon.

[/quote]

That just hasn’t proven to be how societies work. For example, it took legislation to bring about freedom for the slaves and that has required ongoing government intervention. In theory it would be wonderful if societies just changed themselves without intervention. It just won’t happen though.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I don’t even know what that means.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Lots of people felt and did exactly as you propose in 1500s Europe. The result was not unity but a permanent and massive sundering of the Body of Christ

That isn’t the same thing. The protestant revolution was about a complete change in salvation theology.

It is unfair to the Pope to believe that every word or action of his is without error, especially today with all the news and social media going on.

Not everyone who disagrees with a fallible word or action of the Pope is a protestant revolter.

That change in salvation theology started with harsh criticism of actions and personal failings of the Popes though.

In those days if was “If the Popes have mistresses, buy or bribe their way into office, sell indulgences - these things being plainly wrong - then why should we accept their authority in anything? Why even accept that the Pope should be head of the Church?”

Now it is “if the Pope isn’t as hardline as I or Cardinal X or Father Y thinks he should about communing the divorced/ecumenism/LGBT/insert-issue-of-choice then why is he an authority on anything else?” and sure enough ends with people refusing to accept Papal authority and leaving the Church over such things.

True, no Pope is above criticism, but criticism needs to be made with respect and charity and not dogpiling or using terms such as “leftist gobbledegook” “sordid” “kowtowing” and so on.

 

[LilyM]

That doesn’t mean criticism of the clergy naturally leads to heresy. The two differ completely in kind. St. Thomas More had no qualms about criticizing the corruption of the time, but he remained perfectly orthodox. Many more examples could be given: the monks at Cluny, St. Athanasius…

Now it is “if the Pope isn’t as hardline as I or Cardinal X or Father Y thinks he should about communing the divorced/ecumenism/LGBT/insert-issue-of-choice then why is he an authority on anything else?” and sure enough ends with people refusing to accept Papal authority and leaving the Church over such things.

That kind of misguided thinking comes from ignorance concerning the different levels of theological certainty, not criticism of certain members of the hierarchy.
[/quote]

Are you equating yourself to St Thomas or St Athanasius now? Are you aspiring to their reputation or their level of erudition and scholarship (which frankly I’ve never seen on CAF)? If so, surely you should be writing to the Vatican direct so that His Holiness can benefit from your unparalleled insight.

 

[Emeraldlady]

True, no Pope is above criticism, but criticism needs to be made with respect and charity and not dogpiling or using terms such as “leftist gobbledegook” “sordid” “kowtowing” and so on.

(Just to clarify. My use of the term ‘sordid’ was tongue in cheek. I agree with you.)

 

[LilyM]

When did I say anything about myself? I stated a principle and gave historical examples. Trying to make this thread about my person is completely inappropriate, and indeed, the epitome of bad scholarship.
[/quote]

My sincere apologies, it was overly harsh. However, you are the one defending peoples (presumably including your) right to criticise based on the example of Sts Thomas and Athanasius., so in essence you are.

 

[Emeraldlady]

There is no cut and dried measure of these thing, which calls for faithful assent on the part of lay people. If you promote personal discernment as that measure then logically you must accept it for others who are liberal dissenters as well.

 

[Emeraldlady]

How does citing the different levels of theological certainty equate to “personal discernment”??? Indeed, the two are polar opposites.
[/quote]
You stated above that Laudato si “goes too far”. What about that document makes it unworthy of your assent?