Amazon Synod final document: "Terrible and seemingly impious things"

[TheLittleLady]

Not only under 65, but under it by over a decade. I read the Reporter & Register, as well as America Magazine, I read many Catholic publications.

 

[tafan2]

but there has been a lot of crooked ones.

No there hasn’t. I get so tired of people just assuming that most Pope’s in the middle ages thru renaissance were corrupt. In point if fact, you would probably find fewer than a dozen who were notoriously corrupt. IIRC, the book Bad Popes describe 8. I am sure the author would have listed more if they existed.

Why lend credence to the protestant claim the Church was so corrupt that the Reformation was needed. It was actually the other way around. Corruption and greed is what enabled the protestant Reformation to be successful.

 

[godisgood77]

I would say they are only pushing their own agenda.

Or just trying to serve

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Or just trying to serve

against what the Church has always taught

 

[godisgood77]

against what the Church has always taught

I don’t think this is true… seems there were women deacons previously… unless you can reference some teaching that says otherwise?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

seems there were women deacons previously… unless you can reference some teaching that says otherwise?

I think it works the other way. Who were these previous women deacons?

From Fauken’s link above:

Pope Francis revealed that some in the Vatican commission have concluded that historically the female diaconate was different from the role of male deacons, namely without sacramental ordination.

Haydock Catholic Bible commentary regarding Phoebe in Roman’s 16

Phœbe, who is in the ministry, or employed in the ministry, as women, called diaconissæ, used to be, privately instructing catechumens, assisting particularly at the baptizing of women, distributing charities

 

[Fauken]

I don’t think this is true… seems there were women deacons previously… unless you can reference some teaching that says otherwise?

https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2...plans-for-female-deacons-but-study-continues/

 

[Adamek]

Maybe you can reference a time when the church used women deacons?

 

[twf]

Not only under 65, but under it by over a decade. I read the Reporter & Register, as well as America Magazine, I read many Catholic publications.

Except the Reporter has been told not to use the term Catholic by the local diocese…so its not really a Catholic publication.

 

[Fauken]

I appreciate what the priest was trying to do… But no.

 

[Adamek]

“Who are these guys?”

 

[Lazybones]

“notorious(ly) corrupt” is the only benchmark of a crooked Pope? Good to know…

 

[Adamek]

And it keeps getting “better”.

 

[thistle]

I have not seen that in any statement from the synod.

You don’t need to see such a statement.
It is IMPOSSIBLE as the Church INFALLIBLY TEACHES that only men can be ordained.

 

[BlueMaxx]

I sometimes think the Eastern Orthodox might have leg to stand on…

 

[vz71]

seems there were women deacons previously… unless you can reference some teaching that says otherwise?

Name them.
When?
Where?
And what exactly was their role?

You made the positive assertion, back it up.

 

[InThePew]

This is how Msgr. Charles Pope describes the Amazon synod in an article published in National Catholic Register. "Pope Francis is deeply enmeshed in the Amazon Synod and its outcomes. It is clear that the Synod was stacked with liberal — even radical — members and that all the matters that ordinary Catholics feared going into the synod have been realized.

Msgr Pope’s claim of the Syond being stacked is easily debunked: the majority were ex-officio attendee’s - in other words, attending by virtue of the position that they hold: all 113 heads of dioceses & vicariates in the Amazon and 13 heads of Roman Curia offices (for total of 126 of the 185). Besides this it also helps to actually read the final document rather than rely solely on what the blogshere believes (mind you it also helps to have experience of ministry outside of the comfort of suburbia).

An unofficial working translation of the final document is here. Some key points:

1. On married priests: while acknowledging celibacy as a gift from God, the report observes that, for many communities in the Amazon “sometimes it takes not just months but even several years before a priest can return to a community to celebrate the Eucharist, offer the sacrament of reconciliation or anoint the sick in the community.” They therefore propose the establishment of criteria for to ordaining suitable and esteemed men of the community, who have had a fruitful permanent diaconate and receive an adequate formation for the priesthood.
2. On women: " In the new contexts of evangelization and pastoral ministry in the Amazon, where the majority of Catholic communities are led by women, we ask for the institution of ministry for " woman leadership of the community" be created and recognized within the service of the changing demands of evangelization and community care… We would therefore like to share our experiences
   and reflections with the [Study Commission on the Diaconate of Women] and await its result.

I can see nothing which is either “terrible” of “impious” in this document. What I do see is a community which is almost unique and which has specific challenges - cultural, physical and ecological - which need to be addressed in a way which is not just practical but also recognises the realities of ministry in that area - rather than solutions imposed from afar. What people need to remmebr is that our Church is local as well as universal, distinct and diverse while also being united. Too often critics and commentators only evaluate issues from their own limited experience without giving a thought to the fact that life outside of their local area is, in some places, so vastly different it could almost be another world!

 

[tafan2]

It appears to me we do need to see it, read the response s on this thread. We have even had a web site linked promoting women deacons.

 

[BlueMaxx]

So do I and I would have left a long time ago.

However I believe in Peter and Christ promise to the Church.

I’ve been saying the Church of England thing for awhile though.

The Church will reach an ultimate low before rising up again to wage war against the forces of darkness… Remember the Church is Christological this is Her passion…
[/quote]

Ay’yup…

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

So, where else do we have to flee?

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

I guess it means we were never promised a rose garden…we were told of bad times to come…

I want to be like Paul, fight the good fight and finish the race…

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

 

[Tolle_Lege]

It is obvious that St. Paul’s references to deaconesses in no way equated them with male deacons or clergy. The Church’s understanding of any previous deaconess function has been understood as a non-ordained female assisting new women converts to the faith.

Also, it is evident from 1 Timothy that women are not allowed to teach or preach to men, so any concept of a modern deaconess could not perform the same functions as men.

But apparently the people pushing for this are going to keep “studying” . . .I’m not sure what they’re going to find if they haven’t found it already. It’s like studying the Scriptures to find out who Jesus’s biological siblings are . . .it just isn’t there.