Amazon Synod final document: "Terrible and seemingly impious things"

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With the huge number of tribes and languages that are said to be present in the Amazon region, how could there possibly be a unified Amazonian Rite? The most usefull possibility, given the large variety of languages, might be the Tridentine Rite.

But I’m worried that won’t happen, and whatever strange things end up in the Amazon rite, will somehow end up in the German rite.
 
InThePew said:
Msgr Pope’s claim of the Syond being stacked is easily debunked: the majority were ex-officio attendee’s - in other words, attending by virtue of the position that they hold: all 113 heads of dioceses & vicariates in the Amazon and 13 heads of Roman Curia offices (for total of 126 of the 185). Besides this it also helps to actually read the final document rather than rely solely on what the blogshere believes (mind you it also helps to have experience of ministry outside of the comfort of suburbia).
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@InThePew …I can’t like this enough! 🧐
 
tafan2 said:
It appears to me we do need to see it, read the response s on this thread. We have even had a web site linked promoting women deacons.
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Let me repeat it. Whatever they have in mind regarding women deacons WE KNOW it does not involve ordination because the Church TEACHES INFALLIBLY that only men can be ordained so all who are thinking and hinting that it involves ordination should stop it immediately as it shows ignorance of Church doctrine.
 
I don’t disagree. My point is that ambiguity is dangerous, and it seems that is where we are headed:. to some “form” of female deaconate that will make that doctrine very unclear in the minds of many. We often need statements from the Church asserting what we should already know.
 
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I read a broad variety of things. When I need official Catholic information, I read the Vatican news source and the USCCB news. All of the others are commentary.
 
thistle said:
Whatever they have in mind regarding women deacons WE KNOW it does not involve ordination because the Church TEACHES INFALLIBLY that only men can be ordained so all who are thinking and hinting that it involves ordination should stop it immediately as it shows ignorance of Church doctrine.
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Yeah well the Church has consistently taught that WOMEN SHOULD NOT SERVE AT THE ALTAR. That’s been the teaching and practice for centuries. Yet here we are, with our clergy hosting a synod with idol worship and talk about formalizing a women’s diaconate.

Why else would they want women deacons serving at the altar.

In another generation or two they’ll write up another document with ambiguous language and use the diaconate as a way to push this agenda.

Do we need women serving at the altar after centuries of prohibiting it? What good is this change supposed to be bring about?
 
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Crusader13 said:
Yeah well the Church has consistently taught that WOMEN SHOULD NOT SERVE AT THE ALTAR. That’s been the teaching and practice for centuries. Yet here we are, with Church hosting a synod with idol worship and talk about formalizing a women’s diaconate.
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Women’s ordination has the benefit of having in infallible declaration against it.

What you spoke of is a tradition, with a lower case ‘t’.
 
vz71 said:
What you spoke of is a tradition, with a lower case ‘t’.
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Yes I realize that, but again the question still remains.

Why do we need women deacons serving at the altar after centuries of prohibiting it on theological grounds?

Why do they want to make this change???
 
Personally, I feel that women should not serve at the altar. A server at the altar was often to discern a vocation to the priesthood.
 
Crusader13 said:
Yeah well the Church has consistently taught that WOMEN SHOULD NOT SERVE AT THE ALTAR.
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That was not doctrine. It was discipline. The form of the Mass falls under disciplinary law. Disciplines can be changed.
The only things at Mass that cannot be changed are the consecration and the priest receiving. Everything else can be changed.
 
thistle said:
That was not doctrine. It was discipline. The form of the Mass falls under disciplinary law. Disciplines can be changed.
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Again, your getting focused on the authority of it and whether the Church is allowed to install “women deacons” as it relates to authority.

Still no one wants to even touch on the motive behind the change! Again, WHY DO WE NEED WOMEN DEACONS???

Popes, councils, documents all at one time or another prohibited women serving at the altar and here in 2019, everyone seems to think that merely having the perceived authority to create a women’s diaconate is reason enough to go ahead and do it.

What has changed in 2019 that would allow for women to serve as deacons, that centuries of Catholic understanding has forbidden?
 
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Crusader13 said:
Again, your getting focused on the authority of it and whether the Church is allowed to install “women deacons” as it relates to authority.

Still no one wants to even touch on the motive behind the change! Again, WHY DO WE NEED WOMEN DEACONS???

Popes, councils, documents all at one time or another prohibited women serving at the altar and here in 2019, everyone seems to think that merely having the perceived authority to create a women’s diaconate is reason enough to go ahead and do it.

What has changed in 2019 that would allow for women to serve as deacons, that centuries of Catholic understanding has forbidden?
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My focus is on the fact that women can never be ordained. I am neutral on the Church finding a way for women to be further included outside ordination as deacons.

What do you have against women being involved in the Church outside ordination?
 
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In my opinion everything that has changed with the Mass is all connected in one way or another.

When you look at the TLM prior to VII, you had the minor and major orders. Which at the time, the minor orders were viewed as the beginning steps towards entering the priesthood.

So, the Mass is changed and shortly afterwards the minor orders are removed as well. This opens the door for the laity to step into those roles, and in doing so strips away those orders that were once viewed as the beginning steps towards ordination. Sill, the issue of women deacons and women serving at the altar was prohibited.

However, the groundwork as been laid. For over a generation we’ve been accustomed to seeing the laity fulfill these roles at Mass. Readers, eucharistic ministers, altar girls; it has become so common place to see the laity moving about the altar, that nobody thinks twice about asking “Well, why not women deacons.”

I don’t buy this argument that simply because there is doctrine in place that prevents women’s ordination, that the matter is simply closed. Look at what’s been done thus far. They altered the entire Mass, removed minor orders, changed canon law; all to allow men and women to step into these roles and now the issue before us is whether women can serve at the altar as deacons.

In an article written here on CA, Jim Russel asks the perfect question:
If two of these three degrees of the sacrament cannot be administered to women, while at the same time there is a clear “ecclesial tradition” and teaching from the magisterium that these three degrees inseparably comprise the sacrament, then how can one truly consider the remaining degree (diaconate) open to women?
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Crusader13 said:
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thistle:
That was not doctrine. It was discipline. The form of the Mass falls under disciplinary law. Disciplines can be changed.
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Again, your getting focused on the authority of it and whether the Church is allowed to install “women deacons” as it relates to authority.

Still no one wants to even touch on the motive behind the change! Again, WHY DO WE NEED WOMEN DEACONS???

Popes, councils, documents all at one time or another prohibited women serving at the altar and here in 2019, everyone seems to think that merely having the perceived authority to create a women’s diaconate is reason enough to go ahead and do it.

What has changed in 2019 that would allow for women to serve as deacons, that centuries of Catholic understanding has forbidden?
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For starters I cannot recall the last time I saw a male deacon in Church, and it is not a bad thing per se to maximise the extent to which women can.participate in Church life given that ordained roles are closed to them.
 
Fauken said:
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LilyM:
and it is not a bad thing per se to maximise the extent to which women can.participate in Church life given that ordained roles are closed to them.
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The diaconate is an ordained role.
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Well as has been said already, there are women who in the early Church were named ‘deaconesses’. I’m sure they weren’t ordained, same as the deaconesses employed.in Eastrern Orthodox churches are not. So, although male deacons are indeed ordained, it appears that one can be female.and unordained and yet a deacon(ess).
 
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LilyM said:
Well as has been said already, there are women who in the early Church were named ‘deaconesses’. I’m sure they weren’t ordained, same as the deaconesses employed.in Eastrern Orthodox churches are not. So, although male deacons are indeed ordained, it appears that one can be female.and unordained and yet a deacon(ess).
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You said this on the same line as saying that you haven’t seen a male deacon in a church in a long time. The “Deaconess” is not equivalent or interchangeable with the diaconate.
 
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