Amazon Synod idols cast in River Tiber today

[Fauken]

Whatever that was, it wasn’t a ‘stunt’

A few days ago men removed some female figurines (centerpieces for several weird ceremonies in Rome the last few weeks) from a church and tossed them into the Tiber River. Vatican spokesman Paolo R…

canonlawblog.wordpress.com

"But a fuller assessment of the act of these two men does not rest solely on whether the figures are demonic or merely faddish. Canon 1210, addressing the dignity of Catholic holy places in general, states: “Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden…” AndCanon 1220 § 1, addressing churches specifically, states: “All those responsible are to take care that in churches such cleanliness and beauty are preserved as befit a house of God and that whatever is inappropriate to the holiness of the place is excluded.”

“Theses canons, in my view, do not simply preclude the placement of obviously demonic or pagan artifacts in our churches, but rather, require those in charge of sacred places to set up objects that are positively conducive to Christian prayer and worship. If, as the Congregation for Divine worship stated in 1987(*), the mere fact that that some music is admittedly beautiful does not justify its performance in churches, then all the more so should church authorities be on guard against setting up objects widely and reasonably seen as representing pagan deities in Catholic sacred spaces. I suggest (and more to the point, the Code of Canon Law understands in, say, Canon 214), that the faithful have the right to trust that what they see in Catholic sacred places is actually there in service to the sacred and is not simply a gesture toward some form of political correctness or the latest cause du jour , to say nothing of it possibly being simply evil. Ignoring concerns about the proper use of sacred space with a shrug and a ‘we don’t really know what it is’ is to ignore the positive duties that Church leadership owes to the faithful.”

“As a man of law I am also a man of order and, as a rule, I hold that removing objects from private property is not an act of good order. But then, neither is setting up idols (whether to demons or to secular causes) in Catholic churches an act of good order. Over time the disregard of law by those in charge eventually brings about disregard of law by those subject to it. And that in turn can result in acts that are much more than mere “stunts”.”

 

[Crusader13]

No we don’t. No one did. That is the straw man.

Then why were they erected in the church???

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Disposing of it quietly would be the best option.

 

[adgloriam]

for example the confusion of the Inca pantheon with the natives of the Amazon

This one is real good. The clear cut clarity.

I refuse to think of the people here as bigoted, but I do believe I see a limit of knowledge

This is the right way to see things.

some people might at least pause and take a step back from their hardened opinions to see both sides.

It’s tough. The one thing that struck me after joining CAF is the sheer amount of pressure media exerts on people everywhere. Starting with the Raymond’s, the Voris’s, the LifeSiteNews’s, and all the other unscrupulous who hold a stake and turn a gain. Then we’ll see false polemics echoed here, and polemics seem to feed into vices, that of criticizing for the sake of disagreement yielding to scandal. The straw man of idolatry claiming, every day, the pope himself is about to apostatize.

take a step back from their hardened opinions to see both sides.

It’s not that I don’t try to understand others, I tried giving my contribution and I’m out of this thread. I really appreciate the trouble you took in writing me, thank you. I hope you found something of value, in my posting. I certainly keep growing with your posting, and posture.

In Christ.

 

[Aquinas11]

That was the justification for the Inquisition and other forms of coercive conversion

You can’t save a soul via coercive conversion, so that was not saving souls. If someone forces to me to confess with a gun to my head, it doesn’t count. Shocked to read this on CAF.

 

[Rubee]

Take a hint, the poster wasn’t born or raised in Africa.

Shame on you.

You first display your own attitudes that dark/African iconography is inherently odd even when keeping to traditional values, tell people you don’t know that they don’t know about Africa or S. America when talking on an international internet forum, tell me that I would be received a certain way in my own continent, and now you’re stating flatly that I wasn’t born or raised there. On what do you base this ridiculous assumption? Tell me more of your assumptions about Africa and Africans that make you so sure you know a person on the internet can’t be African.

 

[Lysander]

Whats a straw man about calling them pagan idols? They werent Mary or any other saint (as the vatican spokeperson said they weren’t) they were to represent " Mother Earth" or “Life” itself. This is the same as the pagan goddess of the region. Also Saint Paul says don’t elevate the creature to that of God. Also we dont need an object to represent life because we have the Blessed Sacrament which is the fount of all life.

 

[Crusader13]

some people might at least pause and take a step back from their hardened opinions to see both sides.

We do that’s why we are so frustrated with comments like yours and others.

Side A: They are idols remove them from our churches and never allow them inside again.

Side B: Leave them in place because to do otherwise is culturally insensitive.

Conclusion, side B is wrong. And there’s no middle ground or compromise. It’s idolatry.

 

[graciew]

Would you agree to accept the Cathecism of the Catholic Church as a reliable source ?

 

[Rubee]

Take a hint, you don’t lecture me on what I should do. I take that advice from people who earned my respect, or who are in right reason. Or engage in anything even remotely resembling respectful dialogue.

Respectful dialogue is assuming you know people’s backgrounds and repeating your assumptions?

You also say African art is typically of naked people. I’d like to know which African churches you visit-- given you feel like such an authority on the continent and its culture–where sacred images are of naked people. Moreover, I have no idea why you thought those statues you displayed before are in anyway odd.

 

[Crusader13]

Well I guess it depends on what you are referencing it for?

 

[Rubee]

I agree. And in my 35 years on this planet, the first 29 of which were confined to the south of the savannah, I must say I have never witnessed any nude pictures displayed in church, ever. So I’m not sure what their significance is to the Amazon discussion, i.e. naked images. The virgin is always covered completely from the neck down and almost always veiled, whether with a flat veil or an elaborate African head-dress that looks more like a crown. At least these naked images are not part of any Christian group I’ve ever seen in my own home.

 

[graciew]

Is it a valid source for you?
As Roman Catholic it is for us.
And you asked about mother earth

 

[Aquinas11]

Would you agree to accept the Cathecism of the Catholic Church as a reliable source ?

Is it a valid source for you?

not an infallible and inerrant source like Scripture which gives countless examples of destroying idols

 

[Emeraldlady]

this one is dedicated to you @Emeraldlady , for your valuable contributions.

As are yours, adgloriam. I came across a wise reflection from Thomas Aquinas today…

“For those who have faith no explanation is needed but to those who have not, no explanation would suffice.”

It really seems to me that the laity are being manipulated by Satan for the purpose of destroying faith, hope and charity in them. I see very little of those virtues in these raging, disrespectful posts.

 

[Aquinas11]

“For those who have faith no explanation is needed but to those who have not, no explanation would suffice.”

Yes nobody who abides by 1st commandment needs an explanation why they disposed of Idols.

For those who reject Bible and God’s laws, no explanation will suffice for disposing of the Idols

It really seems to me that the laity are being manipulated by Satan for the purpose of destroying faith, hope and charity in them

Yes , as Paul VI said after Vatican II, “the Smoke of Satan has entered the Church” and this has continued to pervade now in form of idol worship

 

[Polak]

Well this topic sure is hot.

I’m not a fan of the actions (taking something from a church and throwing it in the river), but I can understand the frustration who believe it’s an idol in the church, not related to our faith in any way. People really think it’s supposed to represent our Lady? I mean, look at it, for a start, there are multiple figurines of women, not just one.

I also think the Vatican’s head of communications Paolo Ruffini overdid it a bit by calling it a ‘violent and intolerant gesture’. Intolerant could be argued, but how is it violent?

My opinion. Not claiming that I know better than the Catholic church, before somebody tries to jump on me.

 

[Rubee]

Yes I have been all over and met people from all over. As a cradle catholic I was taught from early to appreciate, and be tolerant towards, all differences that go into being Catholic and in being open to those differences. (Here you’ll notice a difference between me and so many of the others.)

Where did you see naked pictures in African churches?

 

[Anrakyr]

Destroying idols also comes from the bible, remember the old testament prophets. And in Catholic history remember Saint Benedict and Saint Bonaventure.

The bible was written two thousand years ago and both those saints were about thousand average.

Since then we have freedom of speech, right and protection of property, religion isn’t tied to state stability anymore.

If you want to destroy idols like in days of yore you can’t because laws.

But to quote saint Thomas Moor in Man for all Seasons:

TM “What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get at the devil?”
“Yes, I would cut down every law in England.”
TM “Oh? And when the last law falls and the devil turns round on you where will you hide with all the laws being flat? This country is planted think with laws, mans laws not Gods and if you cut them down and your just the man to do it could you stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety sake.”

 

[Emeraldlady]

graciew:

Would you agree to accept the Cathecism of the Catholic Church as a reliable source ?

Is it a valid source for you?

not an infallible and inerrant source like Scripture which gives countless examples of destroying idols

You are talking about the Old Testament here. That was prior to Christs coming to illuminate our hearts. The New Testament almost exclusively references idolatry in regard to the sins of the flesh.

Eph 5 3 But fornication and impurity of any kind, or greed, must not even be mentioned among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Entirely out of place is obscene, silly, and vulgar talk; but instead, let there be thanksgiving. 5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. 7 These are the ways you also once followed, when you were living that life. 8 But now you must get rid of all such things—anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth.

The exorcist and traditionalist Fr Ripperger, said earlier this year that the traditional movement are seeing signs of grave sin overtaking it and will destroy all credibility in time. He highlighted anger, judgementalism, lust and disrespect for the Pope.