Amazon Synod idols cast in River Tiber today

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Rubee said:
Theft is evil but taking is not always theft.
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You are correct, as any socialist could attest. However, the exception in Catholic doctrine is when taking is required for life, based on the universal destination of goods.

I have had a few laughs at how moral relativism could apply here in people so opposed to moral relativism. I also find it amusing how the exception to theft used, in other things, socialism is seen as an exception.
 
adgloriam said:
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PeterT:
Note like all authorized depictions of our Blessed Mother, this depiction shows the Blessed Virgin Mary fully clothed and not naked.
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This is again not true.

The “Nursing Madonna” and “Our Lady of Visitation” being two classic notable exceptions.

(this one is dedicated to you @Emeraldlady , for your valuable contributions. Folks during the discoveries and the middle ages where indeed more enlightened than so many today 🙂 )
The depiction is mentioned by Pope Gregory the Great, and a mosaic depiction probably of the 12th century is on the facade of Santa Maria in Trastevere in Rome, though few other examples survive from before the late Middle Ages. It continued to be found in Orthodox icons (…), especially in Russia.

Usage of the depiction seems to have revived with the Cistercian Order in the 12th century, as part of the general upsurge in Marian theology and devotion.
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Huh???

In the two images you posted, the Blessed Virgin Mary is still fully clothed. A mother breast-feeding her child as depicted in one of the images you posted is not in anyway “naked”.
 
As a former pagan, I can tell you right now, the whole tree planting ceremony reeks of paganism. The difference between the accusation of Catholics being idolaters (false) and whatever took place in the Vatican gardens is that there’s nothing of honest, authentic Christian worship in that superstitious ritual. A statue of Mary or Jesus is treated with respect but at the same time is not the object of worship. We Catholics understand that Jesus does not live in statuary neither do any of the saints.
The Pachamama statue was an idol. I don’t know what what is the hearts of those who were BOWING down to it. However, for some who participated in it, they were revering a false god. For the Christians who participated without having idolatry in their hearts, they were still committing pseudo-veneration to a piece of ugly wood. Perhaps they didn’t know any better or simply thought that they were ‘respecting the culture.’ In either case, they were giving undue respect to a goddess who doesn’t exist. Pope Francis allowing it in the garden and allowing idols within spitting distance near the bones of St. Peter is perhaps one of the dumber things he’s done. I love and respect him and his office, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t criticize his actions. It’s hardly misplaced zeal to throw idols out of consecrated churches.
 
Why was this not displayed? This is a beautiful representation of Blessed Mary!
 
I don’t think “by the sword” can be applied when you are tossing a statue in the river.
 
pnewton said:
However, the exception in Catholic doctrine is when taking is required for life, based on the universal destination of goods.

I have had a few laughs . . .
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Have as many laughs as you want: are you saying life is the only exception? Just want to be clear about your assertions before I go ahead.
 
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The entire argument about this being theft is simply a way to divert attention away from the pagan idolatry and to focus it on the individuals.

That way they can talk about what they feel is the bigger problem, which isn’t the idolatry inside our own churches, but our unwillingness to accept it.

So having no other defense to support this garbage they cry theft. What’s even more ironic is that they use scripture to try and support their thievery argument and yet flat out ignore the scripture verses that deal with idolatry. 🤣
 
Crusader13 said:
So having no other defense to support this garbage they cry theft . What’s even more ironic is that they use scripture to try and support their thievery argument and yet flat out ignore the scripture verses that deal with idolatry. 🤣
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And the one where Christ ‘vandalized’ private property in a temple 🙃 No worries, though: I’m sure a life was at stake when Jesus took those measures.

The craziest claim yet, though, is that the statues which we see on video being taken out of a church 'were never in church: How much bending must one do to defend this clear mistake?
 
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I am saying that is what the catechism says, more specifically for the essential needs of life.
There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.
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Thank you: I see you list AN exception after you laughed about it being THE exception in Catholicism. Just to be clear, no one here thinks starving people commit theft if they take food. Now about your actual claims from earlier . . .
 
Crusader13 said:
The entire argument about this being theft is simply a way to divert attention away from the pagan idolatry and to focus it on the individuals.
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Which “entire” argument. There is already a thread on the synod, and one on the ceremony. I do not think it a diversion to stick to the actual topic of this particular thread.
 
Rubee said:
Thank you: I see you list AN exception after you laughed about it being THE exception in Catholicism.
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Right. The Catechism is our sure norm for understanding the faith. I guess, if we are going to allow for relativism and situational ethics, there are many others people individually can come up with. But I do find the irony here, this contradiction, a little amusing.

BTW, we do all know these two were not divine, I hope. Comparisons with Jesus in the house of His Father lack a pretty critical ingredient.
 
pnewton said:
However, the exception in Catholic doctrine is when taking is required for life, based on the universal destination of goods.
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So if taking is ok to save a life, it necessarily must be ok to save a soul which is even more valuable.
 
pnewton said:
Right. The Catechism is our sure norm for understanding the faith.
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I’m glad to see more listings of things no one disputes. Just to be clear, once more, no one here is confused about the Catechism being a reliable source for our faith: Do you mind showing me the part that talks of bowing to pagan deities or naked ‘pro-life’ 😉 figurines and keeping them in church? Surely if you can’t find it in the CCC, it’s illegitimate.
pnewton said:
BTW, we do all know these two were not divine, I hope. Comparisons with Jesus in the house of His Father lack a pretty critical ingredient.
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I see: Jesus is not the proper model of Christian morality, after all. Silly me! What about prophets and saints? Do we get to emulate them, at least?
 
pnewton said:
Which “entire” argument.
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The one where I said
Crusader13 said:
The entire argument about this being theft
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The topic at hand is about the destruction of the idols. Which those who choose to ignore the entire idolatry aspect, want to talk about how it was wrong to steal the idols and vandalize them in such a disrespectful manner. :roll_eyes:

They are idols. They mean nothing and have no positive attribute to our faith. The Vatican already said at least three times that I’ve heard, it wasn’t the Virgin Mary but a symbol for life, fertility and Mother Earth!!!

Mother Earth is a pagan idol!!!
 
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Excuse me: “ mother earth “ . And just like that it is found in the CCC
And if I am not mistaken CAF belongs to San Diego Archidiocese 2019 so pretending here that we belong in the Middle Ages and make a mess because a carving , a wooden carving! of a pregnant woman is naked , then I must belong to Mars.
All this is bordering the ridiculous.
Pretending that stealing is not theft, robbing is not robbing, vandalizing isn t vandalizing then it is safe to say my country where I live isn t in such a bad state after all. At least in my neck of the woods art is art and when stolen there are consequences.
Geesh… this cannot be the America I know…average reasonable people.
 
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Raymond has been discredited by catholic bishops. His “sensationalist scandal mongering” type of journalism is only good at gripping the viewers attention. Some of Raymond’s stuff has been totally discredited by (him)itself.

Although I love some of EWTN’s content, Salt&Light has a much more sober editorial line (for example).

And I don’t think EWTN has any episcopal supervision of their content or form, they are independent. So, check your sources, most Catholics around the world don’t get the Raymond’s and neither would they care for that kind of editorial line.
 
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