Amb. Keyes arrested at Notre Dame

[elts1956]

This brave woman did not wait for the correct time and place. She lived a long and productive life.

Not sure where a British massacre comes in here. I guess I missed something. Please enlighten me.

Sorry, my post wasn’t clear at all. Someone on the thread mention Ghandi as being a passive protester. I meant to say, that although Ghandi himself was passive, his passiveness still led to the massacre of several hundred passive protestors when Ghandi’s protests first began.

And just in case you’re still feeling a bit of spleen by my first posts regarding my non support of Keyes method of protest, Jill Stanek had this to say also. I am sure you are aware of her pro life - activism? The nurse who appeared before congress regarding infanticide?

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/may/09051109.html

However, Stanek also said that she found it difficult to endorse the group’s protesting style.
“While I disagree with Randall Terry and Dr. Keyes’ 1980s style of protesting, I think just about any action pro-lifers take, aside from violence, of course, adds to the social tension,” Stanek told LSN today

 

[aggiecatholic05]

Just because the abortion battle is a difficult one doesn’t mean you should cut corners and put our children’s welfare in jeopardy.

Do right, period. Not wrong for right’s sake.

this of course makes the dangeros assumption that it is more dangerous for children to see these images than it is to live in a society with no regards for life. a society that is starting to go after the old and diabled, and who knows who next-maybe even them…

 

[elts1956]

This brave woman did not wait for the correct time and place. She lived a long and productive life.

Not sure where a British massacre comes in here. I guess I missed something. Please enlighten me.

Do I favor graphic imagery? No. But I am exposed to it daily. Graphic images of accidents of every kind. Sexual and graphic content on billboards. People drowning, falling from air planes without their chute opening, dog attacks, polar bear attacks to name a few that are presented to me daily.

I wish that there was no need to use the graphic images or photos or drawings to wake people up to what abortion is. After almost 40 years of legal abortion and people still believing that the “thing” inside a woman is a blob or just some cells has left us with only the shock method. These pictures show people that that “thing” is a separate human baby that prior to this “procedure” was in one piece and not many small parts torn from the mothers uterus.

So no I don’t favor it I do support the use of the pictures. Just as those that are against war will use the photos of bloody battlefields and returning caskets to get their point out for the public to see.

In the 70s I was very active in the Right to Life movement. We set up display tables at various places, including the local univerrsity. These were very graphic images of course, but now looking back, I don’t know if exposing the general public to these pictures is the answer at this time… What I wish our priests would do is have those graphic videos shown to their adult congregations before Mass. This could be a beginning. Hopefully non Catholics pastors would begin doing the same, until people GET IT. It’s the adults,young people and teen agers who need to see these pictures. Maybe it would make a dent in the brains of some of them, especially those who voted bo in office.

 

[Insight]

Just because the abortion battle is a difficult one doesn’t mean you should cut corners and put our children’s welfare in jeopardy.

Hi Havard, noticed you are from Norway, I have some family in Moss.

The students at Notre Dame would not be considered children, young adults may be a more applicable terminology. The objective is to educate the young adults of Notre Dame on the Church’s position and the evils of abortion. If they are old enough to conceive, they are old enough to be made aware of the repercussions. Obama is a superhero to the Pro-Death culture deteriorating our society. Giving him a platform would put these students welfare in far worse jeopardy. Notre Dame is honoring and praising an individual who constantly demonstrated a total lack of respect for human life and dignity.

Obama even pioneered taking Abortion to the next level by aggressively opposing the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, an Act that prohibits Doctors of botched Late-Term abortions (typically 7 months) to place fully developed living babies in cold boxes to die cruel deaths of Thermal Exposure.

jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html

On July 17, 2007, Obama promised the Planned Parenthood Action Fund that the first thing he would do as President is pass The Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), which invalidates all limits on abortion, particularly Partial Birth Abortion and the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

God Bless

 

[Norminha]

Since the legalization of abortion, all our children are in danger.
Daily exposure to secular media that bombards them with immoral information is a constant thread to our children.
Parents in a hurry to see their children grown ups is a danger to our children. The majority of our children are loosing their innocence too soon.

I believe that images showing the reality of abortion is not harmful to young children, nor create any trauma on them. On the contrary, if their parents and other responsible adults explain to children the role everyone has to defend our innocent brothers and sisters slaughtered through abortion. Children are stronger and more confident than we think.
As Fr. Pavone says “America will reject abortion when it sees the reality of abortion.”

I did it to my children and today they are pro-life young adults. If I had to do it again, I’ll do it!

 

[Havard]

this of course makes the dangeros assumption that it is more dangerous for children to see these images than it is to live in a society with no regards for life. a society that is starting to go after the old and diabled, and who knows who next-maybe even them…

So you’re saying that just a small, basic degree of responsibility and consideration for children is out of the question, because you know for certain the outcome we desire will not be achieved.

To me, this notion is the same rationalization as used by many practicioners of liberation theology. As His Holiness wrote in Instruction on Certain Aspects of 'Theology of Liberation: “The truth of mankind requires that this battle be fought in ways consistent with human dignity.” I think the same applies here.

 

[Havard]

You may be right, Norminha, but it’s for each parent to decide, and not us to thrust upon their children. Since the Notre Dame campus is private property, they also have the right to limit bloody demonstrations.

And to Insight, as I mentioned, the campus does have a couple day care centers, not to mention regular field trip visitors from Catholic elementary schools from both near and far afield.

 

[jean8]

Here are the first three paragraphs from the article from CNSnews.com;

Alan Keyes Arrested While Protesting University of Notre Dame’s Obama Invitation
Friday, May 08, 2009
By Melanie Hunter-Omar

The administration building at Notre Dame University(CNSNews.com) – Conservative political activist and former presidential candidate Dr. Alan Keyes was arrested on Friday along with 21 other pro-lifers while protesting the University of Notre Dame’s decision to give President Obama an honorary law degree despite his support for abortion.

Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, a pro-life group, said Keyes and the other protesters “walked on campus praying quietly with baby carriages that had dolls covered with stage blood as a show of protest.”

The day before, Keyes was approached during a press conference on public property by two plain clothes Notre Dame policemen and told that if he walked on campus for any reason, he would be arrested.

I think I read something about Notre Dame no longer being a Catholic University. Is this? true?
Obama isn’t a Christian. He went to J. Wrights ‘Liberation Theology’ church for years.
americanthinker.com/2008/05/obama_black_liberation_theolog.html

jean

 

[Norminha]

You’re absolutely right!

The students at Notre Dame would not be considered children, young adults may be a more applicable terminology. The objective is to educate the young adults of Notre Dame on the Church’s position and the evils of abortion. If they are old enough to conceive, they are old enough to be made aware of the repercussions.

Since the category of students at NOTRE DAME have been classified as children, I said that I educated my children since a young age with a pro-life mentality and they grew up without any psychological effects.

Today, they are good DEFENDERS OF THE GIFT OF LIFE.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

So you’re saying that just a small, basic degree of responsibility and consideration for children is out of the question, because you know for certain the outcome we desire will not be achieved.

i never said i know for certian, that is a lie. do not continue to distort my posts like that. i did say that making assumptions is dangerous in matters as serious as this.

-and yes i thik our children face worse threats to their innocence everyday.

-yes i think obama is a threat to us all, if he wont protect the unborn, recently born, elderly, or disabled how can we assume he will protect us?

-amd yes i think its worse that millions of year never even get a chance for anything

 

[Havard]

First off Aggie, that was my first response to you, so I don’t know how you can say that I’m continuing to distort your posts.

Secondly, you said:

“this of course makes the dangeros assumption that it is more dangerous for children to see these images than it is to live in a society with no regards for life. a society that is starting to go after the old and diabled, and who knows who next-maybe even them…”

Which in my reading implies that it’s either one or the other.

When I said “you know for certain”, my intent wasn’t to put words in your mouth, but rather to simply demonstrate that you don’t know for certain… and neither do I. Given that we don’t know, why aren’t we erring on the side of childrens’ safety?

 

[aggiecatholic05]

First off Aggie, that was my first response to you, so I don’t know how you can say that I’m continuing to distort your posts.

i did not say you had in the past. i said do not continue to. this means the first one was too much stop, cease and desist.

Secondly, you said:

“this of course makes the dangeros assumption that it is more dangerous for children to see these images than it is to live in a society with no regards for life. a society that is starting to go after the old and diabled, and who knows who next-maybe even them…”

Which in my reading implies that it’s either one or the other.

When I said “you know for certain”, my intent wasn’t to put words in your mouth, but rather to simply demonstrate that you don’t know for certain… and neither do I. Given that we don’t know, why aren’t we erring on the side of childrens’ safety?

i will admit i may have misunderstood you here. yes i did think you were implying i said i knew my way was better. if i was wrong on that i apologize, thats just how it read to me.

as to my post no i didnt mean to imply we should jump to my idea or yours. i meant we should carefully weigh and consider both. but it is my opinion that showing them(the world) the reality of abortion, is less bad(maybe not better) if it means swaying voters to to end this holocaust. honestly aside from direct intervention from God Almighty i dont think there is a best scenario, i simply think mine/keyes is the least bad.

 

[pnewton]

I do not question Notre Dame has the right to have Keyes arrested, at least legally. However, they do not have the moral right to drag the name of their university and thus the name of the Mother of our Lord onto the side of infanticide and murder. I can not imagine how any faithful Catholic could support this institutionalized blasphemy any longer.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

I do not question Notre Dame has the right to have Keyes arrested, at least legally. However, they do not have the moral right to drag the name of their university and thus the name of the Mother of our Lord onto the side of infanticide and murder. I can not imagine how any faithful Catholic could support this institutionalized blasphemy any longer.

terrific post, especially that last sentence. i think that is the sentiment many of us have tried to express less elequloently.

 

[RLT]

I call myself half Puerto Rican and Half White, or bi-racial. I don’t call myself only Puerto Rican, b/c that would deny my heritage from my caucasion father. I don’t call myself white b/c that would deny my heritage from my Puerto Rican mother.

Hmm, are you really bi-racial Ana?

Because saying you’re half white and Puerto rican doesn’t really identify you racially since Puerto Rican is not a race, but an ethnicity. Puerto Ricans are a mix of races and cultures. The European, African and Taino.

To break it down a Puerto Rican can be of European(Spanish, French, Irish, German, Italian, ), West African, or even Chinese decent. They can be a mix of European and African, European and European( as non Spanish Europeans assimilated into the Spanish culture when they immigrated to Puerto Rico), European and Taino, African and Taino, or the what most PRicans claim European African and Taino.

Just something to ponder.
…yeah I know, I’m being a nerd. Sorry.


Now back to you regularly scheduled thread.
:dancing:

 

[elts1956]

Hi Havard, noticed you are from Norway, I have some family in Moss.

The students at Notre Dame would not be considered children, young adults may be a more applicable terminology. The objective is to educate the young adults of Notre Dame on the Church’s position and the evils of abortion. If they are old enough to conceive, they are old enough to be made aware of the repercussions. Obama is a superhero to the Pro-Death culture deteriorating our society. Giving him a platform would put these students welfare in far worse jeopardy. Notre Dame is honoring and praising an individual who constantly demonstrated a total lack of respect for human life and dignity.

Obama even pioneered taking Abortion to the next level by aggressively opposing the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, an Act that prohibits Doctors of botched Late-Term abortions (typically 7 months) to place fully developed living babies in cold boxes to die cruel deaths of Thermal Exposure.

jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html

On July 17, 2007, Obama promised the Planned Parenthood Action Fund that the first thing he would do as President is pass The Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), which invalidates all limits on abortion, particularly Partial Birth Abortion and the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

God Bless

I wish Notre Dame was still a Catholic University. If so, they would have included courses in “What happens to the baby in an abortion”, with graphic videos. Every student would have to take several courses in such if they wanted to graduate. Maybe that would have kept NDU on the moral Catholic path.

 

[elts1956]

Wow, this thread has been hopping while I was away for the day!

A few responses:

The faithful are called to obedience to their local ordinary. Second-guessing the bishop’s judgments on these issues, and forming opinions apart from and contrary to them is exactly what has gotten ND into this mess, and what continues to keep it there. Fr. Jenkins believes that his interpretation of “Catholics in Political Life” and the issues at hand is more correct and therefore the best course of action for ND, even though Bishop D’Arcy and over 70 other bishops have told him otherwise. And yet you’re siding with Jenkins’ logic on this issue?

Look, it’s silly to examine the hypothetical of a pro-choice bishop in this matter. Bishop D’Arcy is a good and holy man who has led this diocese for decades. He knows the importance of Catholic education at Notre Dame better than anyone else, and is better acquainted with the administration, faculty and students than any other bishop in the world.

I know it’s hearsay to you on this forum, but from my involvement in ND Response I have heard the bishop’s opinions on Terry from his own mouth, and let’s just say that the statement about “unhelpful and unseemly protests” was directed his way. And apparently Terry took it that way, given the rude and rather absurd letter he published in response in a local paper:

The tactics of Terry and Keyes are radical in an unhelpful and alienating way. They take no prisoners, and assume that all who question their techniques are aiding and abetting the pro-choice side. The disrespectful tone Terry has taken with the local bishop should turn off ALL well-meaning Catholics from his tactics, IMO.

Bravo, elts, for all of your well-thought-out posts! Hope to see you at ND this weekend!

Thank you. I wish I could be there with you. But I will be saying my rosary that all goes well. :grouphug:

 

[Archie]

I think it is important to talk about how the general public is perceiving the arrest of Keyes. The “Catholic church” is being perceived as totally hypocritical, and hypocrital (lying) on the issue of life, an issue about which they have ostensibly been the moral leader in showing and telling “the world” the right way.

I think Keyes is a brilliant orator and probably a brilliant political strategist. I have learned not to vote for candidates because of their perceived bold and righteous stance on important issues and not to be impressed with people who have great oratory skills. Keyes ran for president in California as the American Independent Party (or something like that) candidate, an action which effectively killed Chuck Baldwin’s chances in California. To me, for the issue of pro-life, that was a sneaky injurious thing for Keyes to do.

Notre Dame has not been a “Catholic university” for many many decades. The “Catholic church” in the USA has not been “Catholic” for many decades.

Yes, legally, Notre Dame administration can do what they did to Alan Keyes, but Notre Dame and “the church” are only digging their graves even deeper.

The net effect of Keyes’ action, regardless of his motives or modus operandi, was to put “the church” and “Notre Dame” down. To me, “the church” and “Notre Dame” seriously need major public chastisement, and Alan Keyes accomplished that. For that, I say a big “thank you, Dr. Keyes.”

The church has been promoting one world government, which is by its nature, a death and slavery system for all but the world’s ruling elites. That is a mortal sin in my book.

The Catholic church has become politically correct and conformed to this corrupt world system, in stark defiance and disobedience to the One Who said He is Truth.

Dr. Keyes has exposed the truth about Notre Dame and the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic church.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

Ephesians 5:11-14

 

[CoachSTL]

I think it is important to talk about how the general public is perceiving the arrest of Keyes. The “Catholic church” is being perceived as totally hypocritical, and hypocrital (lying) on the issue of life, an issue about which they have ostensibly been the moral leader in showing and telling “the world” the right way.

I think Keyes is a brilliant orator and probably a brilliant political strategist. I have learned not to vote for candidates because of their perceived bold and righteous stance on important issues and not to be impressed with people who have great oratory skills. Keyes ran for president in California as the American Independent Party (or something like that) candidate, an action which effectively killed Chuck Baldwin’s chances in California. To me, for the issue of pro-life, that was a sneaky injurious thing for Keyes to do.

Notre Dame has not been a “Catholic university” for many many decades. The “Catholic church” in the USA has not been “Catholic” for many decades.

Yes, legally, Notre Dame administration can do what they did to Alan Keyes, but Notre Dame and “the church” are only digging their graves even deeper.

The net effect of Keyes’ action, regardless of his motives or modus operandi, was to put “the church” and “Notre Dame” down. To me, “the church” and “Notre Dame” seriously need major public chastisement, and Alan Keyes accomplished that. For that, I say a big “thank you, Dr. Keyes.”

The church has been promoting one world government, which is by its nature, a death and slavery system for all but the world’s ruling elites. That is a mortal sin in my book.

The Catholic church has become politically correct and conformed to this corrupt world system, in stark defiance and disobedience to the One Who said He is Truth.

Dr. Keyes has exposed the truth about Notre Dame and the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic church.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

Ephesians 5:11-14

Archie,

Are you Catholic?

 

[disciple_1]

Regarding Rosa Parks:

she didn’t make a scene. The bus driver may have, but she didn’t. A college commencement is traditionally very low key. The students who ARE protesting bo’s appearance have every right to ask that this be maintained. Again, I say, that by their appearance, Keyes and Terry at this time, MAY give people the impression that anything goes. A commencement ceremony is not the time, or place, to have a free for all. Don’t you think if Keyes and Terry would show up on commencement day very vocal anti life groups would be there too? I understand they were met by students wearing pro choice ? T shirts. Is that the kind of commencement day you would like to have?

There is no problem with dialogue and interaction with the president, either. However, at a commencement ceremony, this is not the time or place. It brings on a free-for-all. If it doesn’t, it should. The kind of commencement day that the pro-life Catholics at their Catholic university would like to have is one where they and their loved ones are able to attend, not have to refuse to attend. This is hurting them and their special day. The Bishop said that it is acceptable to protest in a “dignified” manner. As a conservative Catholic, I’d have to side with “non-violent” protesting, dignified is a joke, buying into political correctness. I doubt Jesus looked dignified chasing money changers around. Or being our Holy King, Lord, and Immortal God hanging as a bloody mess on a cross for our sins. Isn’t He supposed to be our example?