America Mag: Top Ten Takeaways from “Amoris Laetitia”

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How late is too late to get an annulment?

For example, a young couple in their late teens get hastily married because they are starried-eyed in love, then after two or three years they realize it was a mistake. For whatever reason, the Church agrees the marriage never really existed in spirit so it approves the annulment request.

On the other hand, a couple has been married for, say, 25 years and the “magic” has simply gone out of the relationship and they have emotionally drifted apart. What are the chances they would get an annulment approved?
I think the marriage tribunals pay some attention to the length of a marriage, but in the case I mentioned in my previous post, they had been married over 30 years. So it’s not an absolute. Neither is having children, though I think the tribunals consider that as well. In the case above, they had two.
 
From the article, we read the following. Does the text really match the heading or the interpretation put on it in the article?
  1. The role of conscience is paramount in moral decision making. (The magazine heading)
The Pope actually said:

“Individual conscience needs to be better incorporated into the church’s practice in certain situations which do not objectively embody our understanding of marriage”

Then the magazine article goes on to interpret Pope Francis’ statement thus:

“That is the traditional belief that individual conscience is the final arbiter of the moral life has been forgotten here. The church has been “called to form consciences, not to replace them” (37). Yes, it is true, the Pope says, that a conscience needs to be formed by church teaching. But conscience does more than to judge what does or does not agree with church teaching. Conscience can also recognize with “a certain moral security” what God is asking (303). Pastors, therefore, need to help people not simply follow rules, but to practice “discernment,” a word that implies prayerful decision making.” (The magazine article itself again)

I am not persuaded that the Church actually teaches that “conscience is paramount” or that “individual conscience is the final arbiter of the moral life”. The Catechism doesn’t put it that way, as I read it. There is quite a bit in the Catechism about conscience and its importance, but it also says:

‘1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.’

-and-

"1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt. "

So, it seems to me asserting that individual conscience is “paramount” or “the final arbiter of the moral life” is not quite consistent with the Catechism or what the Pope actually said, either one. While the Church’s teachings on conscience are subtle and nuanced, saying conscience is the “final arbiter” of the “moral life” is closer to the protestant view of the autonomy of conscience than the Catholic view that the prompting of conscience can be flawed and must be guided by the clear teachings of the Church.

It certainly seems to me if there is a very clear moral teaching of the Church; e.g., that voluntary abortion is intrinsically wrong; that is, wrong in itself and every time, then it does not seem to me a conscience that tells one it’s okay to do it, for example, because one feels “burdened with a baby”, and feels that’s justification enough, despite knowledge of the Church’s teaching, can possibly be the proper “final arbiter” of the moral choice to abort or to not abort.

Granted, a protestant or a Jew might have received other moral teaching from his religion about voluntary abortion, and might, because of the way it’s so “sanitized” in this society, might not receive the messages of natural law about it. I get that. But a Catholic who knows the Church’s teaching?

I have a lot of trouble with this article’s interpretation of the Pope’s statement.
 
Does anyone know if the document mentions the marriage vocation crisis and how singles called to marriage have been hurt by the culture’s anti-marriage sentiments? I did a search and some skimming and didn’t see anything.
 
Does anyone know if the document mentions the marriage vocation crisis and how singles called to marriage have been hurt by the culture’s anti-marriage sentiments? I did a search and some skimming and didn’t see anything.
Paragraphs 35 & 36 touch on the need for better marriage vocation formation. And paragraphs 39 & 40 mention cultural “anti-marriage” atmosphere.
 
I think this nails it, however I do place responsibility on the couple themselves. I don’t believe a lot of them really have a solid faith formation to get married, and some just marry in the church to appease older Catholic family members. Some couples don’t really believe so much as they do want some sort of faith backing because they believe its a good idea, but don’t know what they really believe and don’t take the time to really commit or research the notion of faith themselves.

Marriage has to be two people committed to God first. They have to meet in God, who is Love. Everything else is just puny, lukewarm.
👍 Right, how many Catholic marriages are joined by God, and not just two people getting married for other reasons as you stated in post #11. I would think the marriages in the Church where God is not really wanted by the bride and groom (I know of some) would not really be valid.
 
Does anyone know if the document mentions the marriage vocation crisis and how singles called to marriage have been hurt by the culture’s anti-marriage sentiments? I did a search and some skimming and didn’t see anything.
You mean people who would want to get married but don’t because of society’s perspective on marriage?
 
Basically, I think if you make a thing more difficult/challenging (like getting married), people will find something else to do.
 
You mean people who would want to get married but don’t because of society’s perspective on marriage?
No, I mean people who are called to marriage but because of society’s force, they are considered outcasts who won’t fornicate or contracept or are churchy patriarchal people or whatever stigma that obstructs the vocation.
 
Paragraphs 35 & 36 touch on the need for better marriage vocation formation. And paragraphs 39 & 40 mention cultural “anti-marriage” atmosphere.
True, but I looked at the paragraphs and they do not delve into the damage this has done to singles whose vocations may be thwarted as a result. Paragraph 36 is self-blame for too much “idealization” of marriage. But the problem I was specifically trying to see addressed was cultural perversion of marriage and how it affects singles, turns them into outcasts, and how the Church might respond to this. See this thread or this post for more of what I mean.
 
My takeaway is that with the acceptance of permanent adultery or temporary fornication and his recent opinion to dicern artificial birth control with cases like Zika that there is a movement to make the Catholic Church go the way if the Protestants.

And now, I too may commit adultery, or other sins as long as I find a pastoral priest. This was supposed to help the family. It is Harming good families and weakening my own faith.
 
My takeaway is that with the acceptance of permanent adultery or temporary fornication and his recent opinion to dicern artificial birth control with cases like Zika that there is a movement to make the Catholic Church go the way if the Protestants.

And now, I too may commit adultery, or other sins as long as I find a pastoral priest. This was supposed to help the family. It is Harming good families and weakening my own faith.
Please don’t let it weaken your faith. Here is a quote that offers a bit of encouragement and hope.

**“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

St. Athanasius**

We must remain strong.
 
Pope Francis’s groundbreaking new document “Amoris Laetitia” (“The Joy of Love”) asks the church to meet people where they are, to consider the complexities of people’s lives and to respect people’s consciences when it comes to moral decisions. The apostolic exhortation is mainly a document that reflects on family life and encourages families. But it is also the pope’s reminder that the church should avoid simply judging people and imposing rules on them without considering their struggles.
Using insights from the Synod of Bishops on the Family and from bishops’ conferences from around the world, Pope Francis affirms church teaching on family life and marriage, but strongly emphasizes the role of personal conscience and pastoral discernment. He urges the church to appreciate the context of people’s lives when helping them make good decisions. The goal is to help families—in fact, everyone—experience God’s love and know that they are welcome members of the church. All this may require what the pope calls “new pastoral methods” (199).
FYI, here’s the link to AMORIS LÆTITIA, which Fr James Martin SJ references in his article.

w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf
 
My takeaway is that with the acceptance of permanent adultery or temporary fornication and his recent opinion to dicern artificial birth control with cases like Zika that there is a movement to make the Catholic Church go the way if the Protestants.

And now, I too may commit adultery, or other sins as long as I find a pastoral priest. This was supposed to help the family. It is Harming good families and weakening my own faith.
Hyperbole.

Have you actually read the document???
 
Hyperbole.

Have you actually read the document???
Yes. And that question is getting old. One need only see relavent and contested passages or even read the copious amounts of commentary citing those passages and footnotes.
Some of the gymnastics being applied remind me of a month or two ago when people refused to believe the pope was talking about artificial contraception and zika.

I cannot logically and theologically make the leaps some are.

My faith is shaken for sure.

But one thing is certain, when this papacy ends, this division in the church will not. I wonder what the future holds.
 
Yes. And that question is getting old. One need only see relavent and contested passages or even read the copious amounts of commentary citing those passages and footnotes.
Some of the gymnastics being applied remind me of a month or two ago when people refused to believe the pope was talking about artificial contraception and zika.

I cannot logically and theologically make the leaps some are.

My faith is shaken for sure.

But one thing is certain, when this papacy ends, this division in the church will not. I wonder what the future holds.
In 1610, Our Lady of Good Success warned: “Shortly after the middle of the 20th century The Catholic Spirit will rapidly decay… the Sacrament of Matrimony… will be attacked and deeply profaned… depraved priests will scandalize the Christian people… priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, not modesty in women… those who possess great wealth… will indifferently stand by and watch the church being oppressed… this, then, will be the happy beginning of the complete restoration.”

I believe there will be a restoration, but it may take awhile.
 
In 1610, Our Lady of Good Success warned: “Shortly after the middle of the 20th century The Catholic Spirit will rapidly decay… the Sacrament of Matrimony… will be attacked and deeply profaned… depraved priests will scandalize the Christian people… priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, not modesty in women… those who possess great wealth… will indifferently stand by and watch the church being oppressed… this, then, will be the happy beginning of the complete restoration.”

I believe there will be a restoration, but it may take awhile.
I can’t go down that road yet. Our church has handled bishops punching out other bishops at councils. Hundreds of years and multiple popes whose opinions were wrong.

Pope Francis is the pope. He is the holy father and I believe he is a good man. I also think he is wrong in many things.

To be honest if anything something must be said for having this type of ambiguity and rift in the leadership of the church while having another pope emeritus living and breathing. In 90 percent of the church’s history that would have been an all out war!
 
I can’t go down that road yet. Our church has handled bishops punching out other bishops at councils. Hundreds of years and multiple pipes whose opinions were wrong.

Pope Francis is the pope. He is the holy father and I believe he is a good man. I also think he is wrong in many things.
Maybe he just needs our prayers. He did request that we pray for him. I think prayer is always the best place to start when we are not sure what to do,
 
In 1610, Our Lady of Good Success warned: “Shortly after the middle of the 20th century The Catholic Spirit will rapidly decay… the Sacrament of Matrimony… will be attacked and deeply profaned… depraved priests will scandalize the Christian people… priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, not modesty in women… those who possess great wealth… will indifferently stand by and watch the church being oppressed… this, then, will be the happy beginning of the complete restoration.”

I believe there will be a restoration, but it may take awhile.
The problem is that this type of prediction, which is private revelation, is that these things have happened in almost every century since the Church became embedded with royalty.

If anything, today the Church is being purged of the evils that existed and the sex abuse scandal is part of that purging.

Jim
 
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