America Mag: Top Ten Takeaways from “Amoris Laetitia”

[JosieN]

The problem is that this type of prediction, which is private revelation, is that these things have happened in almost every century since the Church became embedded with royalty.

If anything, today the Church is being purged of the evils that existed and the sex abuse scandal is part of that purging.

Jim

When was the world this immodest? Women wear almost no clothing at beaches, on television, in movies, in music videos. This immodesty comes in everywhere at us and is not hard to find. Children cannot avoid it either. Their favorite singers, actors, etc. are influencing them to act and behave in immoral ways. You are either blind or very hopeful things will get better on their own. I think this prediction is for our times.

 

[OraLabora]

When was the world this immodest? Women wear almost no clothing at beaches, on television, in movies, in music videos. This immodesty comes in everywhere at us and is not hard to find. Children cannot avoid it either. Their favorite singers, actors, etc. are influencing them to act and behave in immoral ways. You are either blind or very hopeful things will get better on their own. I think this prediction is for our times.

From St. Paul’s letter to the Romans Chapter 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.

Sounds an awful lot like modern Rome for that matter

Honestly, our depravity is nothing new under the sun. We just do it at the speed of light now.

I’m old enough to remember institutionalized racism in Canada and the US. We’ve gone a long way towards eradicating it. The fact is that some things in our society have progressed for the greater good, such as increased life expectancy and medical advances, and some… well we continue to wallow in the filth of our own depravity. There was no rose-coloured past. Every generation has had its depravities, including fairly recently, pre-Vatican II, the extermination of some 6 million Jews by a nominal Roman Catholic and a Church that signed a treaty with a fascist leader.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Why do God and priests put together marriages that are invalid?
Since God is the only one who can “put them together”…why does he not know or check first if it’s valid before he does it?
Or if he already knows they are invalid, why put families through so much pain?
Or…is he just making mistakes?

.

I think history is likely filled with a similar, but surely less, amount of Godless marriages as it is today. The difference being that today there is less fear of becoming a pariah after a divorce. I think more and better formation with more restrictions on dispensation is required to bring respect back into the sacrament of marriage.

If the bride and groom both love God and understand God’s reasons for monogamy and life long marriage they will be less likely to divorce.

More attacks require more training and armor. The Church has not kept pace with the attacks on marriage.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Why do God and priests put together marriages that are invalid?
Since God is the only one who can “put them together”…why does he not know or check first if it’s valid before he does it?
Or if he already knows they are invalid, why put families through so much pain?
Or…is he just making mistakes?

.

Man and woman marry each other, but God blesses the marriage, and for that to happen, the couple must have that faith from God to even understand they’re receiving His blessing.

Unfortunately, most marriages are merely civil rather than sacramental, even when its in the Church.

For many, Catholicism is more of a civil religion than a mystical one and many get married under this umbrella. How many continue to go to Mass on Sundays after their wedding day ?

Pope Benedict XVI said that lack of faith at the time of marriage, could be grounds for nullification.

How many actually were aware that they were giving their marriage over to God and asking for His blessing on their wedding day ?

Its sad to say, but many get married in the Church out of a sense of duty rather than an act of love for God.

Jim

 

[J_Peterson]

When was the world this immodest? Women wear almost no clothing at beaches, on television, in movies, in music videos. This immodesty comes in everywhere at us and is not hard to find. Children cannot avoid it either. Their favorite singers, actors, etc. are influencing them to act and behave in immoral ways. You are either blind or very hopeful things will get better on their own. I think this prediction is for our times.

I think the world has always been a mess. I’m reminded of this quote:

As the late, great Msgr. Lorenzo Albacete once said, and I’ve quoted it before: “If tomorrow it was revealed that the pope had a harem, that all the cardinals had made money on Enron stock and were involved in Internet porno, then the situation of the Church today would be similar to the situation of the Church in the late 12th century … when Francis of Assisi first kissed a leper.”

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/the-francis-option/#ixzz45chf016p

 

[JosieN]

I think the world has always been a mess. I’m reminded of this quote:

That is an interesting quote and in some ways I agree with you. I have read about St. Francis of Assisi. He had a gentle soul and his life was one of poverty and sacrifice. Here is his warning about tribulations that would befall the Church in the future.

Shortly before he died in 1226, St. Francis of Assisi called together the members of his order and warned them of great tribulations that would befall the Church in the future, saying:

Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.
The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.
Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.
There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.
Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.
Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.
Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.

(Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)

 

[Brendan]

What’s your point? I hope your not saying adultery is an unforgivable sin.

No sin is unforgivable, but all forgiveness requires that the sinner repent of their sin and have an intent to not commit it again.

 

[phil19034]

1. The church needs to understand families and individuals in all their complexity.
2. The role of conscience is paramount in moral decision making.
3. Divorced and remarried Catholics need to be more fully integrated into the church.
4. All members of the family need to be encouraged to live good Christian lives.
5. We should no longer talk about people “living in sin.”
6. What might work in one place may not work in another.
7. Traditional teachings on marriage are affirmed, but the church should not burden people with unrealistic expectations.
8. Children must be educated in sex and sexuality.
9. Gay men and women should be respected.
10. All are welcome.
    americamagazine.org/issue/top-ten-takeaways-amoris-laetitia?utm_content=buffer694cc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This list went off the rails at #5

 

[TMC]

This list went off the rails at #5

Do you mean that you disagree with those points, or that those points are not in the exhortation? I think those are points made by the document.

 

[OraLabora]

This list went off the rails at #5

I’ve read the context in which that was written, and I agree with the Holy Father.

The sad fact of our human existence is that we all live in sin, since the Fall. Discretion is the better part of valour and telling people that they are “living in sin” looks very much like pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring the log in ours.

 

[JosieN]

I’ve read the context in which that was written, and I agree with the Holy Father.

The sad fact of our human existence is that we all live in sin, since the Fall. Discretion is the better part of valour and telling people that they are “living in sin” looks very much like pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring the log in ours.

If they are living together in a relationship that is causing them to sin what should they call it? I realize sin is not a nice word, but sometimes it works.

 

[phil19034]

I’ve read the context in which that was written, and I agree with the Holy Father.

The sad fact of our human existence is that we all live in sin, since the Fall. Discretion is the better part of valour and telling people that they are “living in sin” looks very much like pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring the log in ours.

I’m not talking about the Holy Father’s exhortation, I’m talking about the oversimplified takeaway list from America Magazine.

Telling people they are living in sin doesn’t help when they reject Church teaching… But that doesn’t mean we don’t teach our kids NOT to live in sin. The Holy Father wasn’t saying we ignore it or accept it.

We live in a world that is unchurched and not evangelized (even amoung the baptized). You have to evangelize before you catachize. That’s the Pope’s message.

However, we still have to defend Church teaching & Divine Lawn100% while being merciful 100% at the same time. We cannot compromise on either.

I highly recommend Bishop Barron’s keynote address at the World Meeting of Families 2015. He addresses this wornderfully

God Bless

 

[OraLabora]

If they are living together in a relationship that is causing them to sin what should they call it? I realize sin is not a nice word, but sometimes it works.

Yes call a spade a spade. As long as we are willing to look in the mirror and acknowledge our own sin.

I lived in an irregular situation for many years until I came back to the Church nearly 20 years ago and had my situation eventually regularized. Hint: it didn’t happen because someone told me I was “living in sin”. It was a stable union that produced three wonderful children, and yes I am still married to the same person, neither of us had been married to someone else.

The Holy Father is saying "let’s look at the positives in a stable union, like children -especially children, stop the finger wagging, bring them into the Church with open arms, and work on advancing their conversion.

You see Josie, no amount of mean-spirited finger wagging did any good for me. It was a genuine conversion process that came after reading the Bible. Once in the Church I knew what I had to do and my pastor and spiritual director, God bless them, used gentle encouragement, not fire and brimstone. And you know, what, it worked. Otherwise I may have become discouraged as initially my wife was not cooperative.

So by all means call a couple “shacking up” on their “living in sin” if it makes you feel better, but beware because if you drive someone away from God, you too will be held to account for the loss of a soul.

 

[OraLabora]

We live in a world that is unchurched and not evangelized (even amoung the baptized). You have to evangelize before you catachize. That’s the Pope’s message.

This makes perfect sense. You can’t make someone outside the Church conform to Church teaching. Our job as Catholics is to win souls over to Christ, not frighten them away.

Adhering to the Gospel message as interpreted by the Church is actually liberating rather than restricting. But that is very difficult to see by someone coming from a culture that confuses joy with pleasure. It takes a lifetime to make a saint. A stream that wore a rock into a beautiful shape needed hundreds of years to achieve it. I the same manner, the drip, drip, drip of the Gospels and sacraments against our souls ends up moulding them into a shape pleasing to God.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Yes call a spade a spade. As long as we are willing to look in the mirror and acknowledge our own sin.

I lived in an irregular situation for many years until I came back to the Church nearly 20 years ago and had my situation eventually regularized. Hint: it didn’t happen because someone told me I was “living in sin”. It was a stable union that produced three wonderful children, and yes I am still married to the same person, neither of us had been married to someone else.

The Holy Father is saying "let’s look at the positives in a stable union, like children -especially children, stop the finger wagging, bring them into the Church with open arms, and work on advancing their conversion.

You see Josie, no amount of mean-spirited finger wagging did any good for me. It was a genuine conversion process that came after reading the Bible. Once in the Church I knew what I had to do and my pastor and spiritual director, God bless them, used gentle encouragement, not fire and brimstone. And you know, what, it worked. Otherwise I may have become discouraged as initially my wife was not cooperative.

So by all means call a couple “shacking up” on their “living in sin” if it makes you feel better, but beware because if you drive someone away from God, you too will be held to account for the loss of a soul.

 

[Memaw]

1. The church needs to understand families and individuals in all their complexity.
2. The role of conscience is paramount in moral decision making.
3. Divorced and remarried Catholics need to be more fully integrated into the church.
4. All members of the family need to be encouraged to live good Christian lives.
5. We should no longer talk about people “living in sin.”
6. What might work in one place may not work in another.
7. Traditional teachings on marriage are affirmed, but the church should not burden people with unrealistic expectations.
8. Children must be educated in sex and sexuality.
9. Gay men and women should be respected.
10. All are welcome.
    americamagazine.org/issue/top-ten-takeaways-amoris-laetitia?utm_content=buffer694cc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I wasn’t surprised to see this came from American Magazine. Why don’t we just dismiss the Church and let the magazine tell us how to live? Lets don’t burden people with unrealistic expectations. God Bless. Memaw

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I wasn’t surprised to see this came from American Magazine. Why don’t we just dismiss the Church and let the magazine tell us how to live? Lets don’t burden people with unrealistic expectations. God Bless. Memaw

I knew people in this forum would shoot the messenger, America Magazine, which is why I provided the link to Amoris Laetitia.

Here it is again.

w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf

In the America Magazine article, Fr Martin was careful to provide the reference numbers to the Pope’s document, so that you could see for yourself, that he was not spinning the information according to his own ideology.

Fr Martin’s provides the proper interpretation of Pope Francis words.

But don’t shoot me I’m just a messenger too, but check it out for yourself.

Jim

 

[JosieN]

Yes call a spade a spade. As long as we are willing to look in the mirror and acknowledge our own sin.

I lived in an irregular situation for many years until I came back to the Church nearly 20 years ago and had my situation eventually regularized. Hint: it didn’t happen because someone told me I was “living in sin”. It was a stable union that produced three wonderful children, and yes I am still married to the same person, neither of us had been married to someone else.

The Holy Father is saying "let’s look at the positives in a stable union, like children -especially children, stop the finger wagging, bring them into the Church with open arms, and work on advancing their conversion.

You see Josie, no amount of mean-spirited finger wagging did any good for me. It was a genuine conversion process that came after reading the Bible. Once in the Church I knew what I had to do and my pastor and spiritual director, God bless them, used gentle encouragement, not fire and brimstone. And you know, what, it worked. Otherwise I may have become discouraged as initially my wife was not cooperative.

So by all means call a couple “shacking up” on their “living in sin” if it makes you feel better, but beware because if you drive someone away from God, you too will be held to account for the loss of a soul.

I am sorry if I offended you. I know I am a sinner. If I have driven anyone away from God with my comment I apologize to them. I am not trying make myself feel better either. My point was that no one wants to talk about sin anymore. The Bible talks about sin and sinners, but we must not. I get it.