America was tricked into anti-Communism

[Bennie_P]

You forgot capitalism, another ism that has the lead to the death of millions, and the oppression of billions more

There is documentation of the murder and death as the result of failure of countries that experimented with socialism/communism, where can you do the same with this statement?

 

[Mimi]

I don’t know if this is the right subforum to post this on, and I hope that the headline caused you to check it out.

America has always been anti-communist/socialist. McCain accused Obama of being a socialist. BUT…

Something I noiced. One of the key tenets of socialism and communism is that the obscenely wealthy should be taxed more than the average working middleclass person, because they can afford it and it is good for the country. HOWEVER: After the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, the wealthy and powerful in America immediatly began setting Americans against communism. Ironically, THESE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE FORCED TO GIVE MORE TO THE COUNTRY AND SOCIAL PROGRAMS, AS WELL AS GIVE UP SOME OF THEIR POWER!

While I would be the first to agree that communist/socialist countries have mostly failed, socialism in theory isn’t a bad system. Just look at kibbutzes in Israel. And even the family practices a type of socialism, sharing and caring for one another, bei ng as equal as possible while still maintaining some hirarchy.

You thoughts apprecialted.

Any catholic communists out there?

May I first say I know little about kibbutzes (kibbutzim?), although I knew a girl in college who had actually lived in one for a year – I once heard that the youngsters who grow up in them end up having to look far and wide for a spouse, as the girls with whom they grew up felt like siblings, and the natural aversion to marrying one’s sister had an effect.

My $0.02
Mimi

 

[Proletarian]

There is documentation of the murder and death as the result of failure of countries that experimented with socialism/communism, where can you do the same with this statement?

Are you serous? The actions of the “East India Company” alone are proof enough.

 

[Proletarian]

I don’t agree that we should strive toward a better democracy, or any democracy for that matter. In a world where people equate “morality” and “legality,” a democracy that consistently “legalizes” immoral behaviors is a genuine threat to the basic capacity of individuals to develop a well-formed conscience. Democracy carries the belief that morality and the greatest good are simply determined by the popular vote. It says that voting in favor of an atrocity somehow makes that atrocity OK. It says that those committing that atrocity are morally justified, and teaches us to assume that those hurt by that atrocity have gotten what they deserve.

Christ never told us to force others to do good works, and certainly never taught us to use the force of law to make anyone do anything. He never taught us to take from one person against their will and give it to another. Even the early apostolic communities described in the Acts of the Apostles, which did employ a type of distributive system, and did invoke harsh punishments on those who withheld personal property from the community, were completely voluntary- people came to them and joined of their own free will. These communities made no attempt to garner political power or the force of law to achieve their ends.

People need to learn to think and act like individuals again-if they want something to happen in their community, they need to either figure out a way to do it themselves, or find someone who wants to help them, instead of trying to force those around them to do their bidding. People need to let go of this notion that they have the right to force their neighbors to participate in, or pay for, their vision of a better society.

I think you’ll find The Church agrees with notions of Anarchism less than then of Socialism.

 

[RobbyS]

If taxes were halved, the money would be spent on cars and flat screen TVs (and other such things). No more would go to charity.

If Property taxes were halved, many more students would be enrolled in private schools. But let’s go the other way: if taxes were doubled, more and more bureaucrats would be driving more expensive cars and and watching flat screen TVs. Money pumped into the public schools is largely absorbed by administration. The paper clip budget of the NYC public school central office was, asveral years ago, larger than the total archdiocesan budget for administration. In the public schools nationally, there is one non-teaching employee for every ten classroom teachers. The Houston Chronicle reports that Houston ISD has more than 500 employees whose salaries are more than $100,000 a year and dozens whose salaries exceed $200,000.

 

[RobbyS]

I think you’ll find The Church agrees with notions of Anarchism less than then of Socialism.

Unfortunately many in the Church are very much at home with the notion of the welfare state, which operates public schools whose personnel are often hostile to Christianity.

 

[Mimi]

#84:
**Originally Posted by Oscarthecat **
Poor people work hard, build careers and businesses, become successful, and become admired and respected as examples of the great opportunities available to people who take responsibility for their own lives. This is the free market.
Cynic:
Yeah but they need a basic education to do this, and there’s no guarantee of that under a pure free market/libertarian system.

And when has there EVER been a guarantee of a basic education. All the govt. can demand is attendance, not guarantee that anyone actually learn to any standard. Some years ago, in CA, parents brought a suit against the state education system because their son graduated not being able to read (as I recall, he could not read at a very high level; probably 4th grade or so). This kid bluffed his way through and was passedU] along. That was in the 1980's.

We home schooled and our kids are doing great. The govt school system keeps asking for more and more and more money every year, yet people complain about the same things. Some teachers are even child abusers and they get passed along without having a criminal investigation! 

There's no such thing as a free lunch -- or a free education, or health care or ANYTHING!!

This country IS messed up; I just do not think the way to get it back on track is more government and more govt. intervention.

Stepping off the soapbox,
Mimi

[schoolandstate.org/home.htm](http://www.schoolandstate.org/home.htm)

 

[Mimi]

Here’s a fine example of how one man, Marshall Fritz (who was also a Catholic) can help change society without a government handout:

Alliance for the Separation of School and State

schoolandstate.org/home.htm
Marshall Fritz - RIP
1943 - 2008

In 1994 Marshall founded the Alliance for the Separation of School & State and was Chairman of the Board until his death. He was a leading spokesman in how ending state, federal, and local government involvement in schooling can improve education for all children, strengthen the family, and even lead to a turnaround of our collapsing society.

Prior to founding the Alliance in 1994, Marshall was president of the unaccredited Pioneer Christian Academy. His ideas for high quality education were so advanced that his school received endorsements of educators from William Glasser to Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman to New York State Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto. johntaylorgatto.com/
(snip)

I've been a member of this group for more than 10 years. I seriously wonder if it will be allowed to exist under the coming administration. As long as the government controls what is being taught and the majority of children are coerced to attend, we do not really have freedom in our country.

Mimi

 

[Oscarthecat]

I think you’ll find The Church agrees with notions of Anarchism less than then of Socialism.

That’s fortunate, as I am not an anarchist. I do, however, believe that the government should be able to fit comfortably inside a shoebox.

 

[Mimi]

what about the plymouth pilgrims? some have said that they practiced a form of communism.

(Sorry - I seem to be taking up this whole page so far.)

The REAL First Thanksgiving (did not take place in Plymouth)

geocities.com/adam_todm/First_Thanksgiving.htm

by Adam S. Miller

(Taken from the soon-to-be published Journey America: Pathways to the Present, Marian Publications, Inc. This article was first published in a slightly abridged version in “From The Housetops,” Serial No.55, Fall, 2002)

I can't find a link to it, but the story might be on wikipedia, but the Pilgrims who established a colony in Plymouth first tried sharing all that was produced equally. No one owned plots of land and  stores were distributed from a common stock. The result was those who really did the work resented those who did not; they reaped what they did not sow. It didn't work.

The next year they allowed private ownership of land, and things improved greatly. People took pride in what they produced, and I surmise the "haves" possibly hired on the "have-nots" so they could also share in the pride of ownership we humans tend to need in order to be happy. 

Of course, that's not the whole story, but enough to show that common ownership and equal distribution JUST DOESN'T WORK!

Mimi

 

[cynic]

By contrast, socialism reduces the degree of socio-economic disparity by enforcing an artificial “levelling” of society wherein the most productive members of society are punished with the removal of their earnings, and the least productive members of society are rewarded with the benefit of the work of others.

Why do you keep assuming that anyone receiving help from ‘socialist’ governments isn’t working, and doesn’t wish to?

That kind of hate-filled rhetoric seems to permeate every argument from the extreme right. How likely is it that people with money are going to give if they believe the “less productive” are simply lazy?

 

[Tigertame4]

Why do you assume that the right is “hate filled?” You will find that people that define themselves as conservatives are more likely to give to charity and to give a higher level of their monies to charity. We do NOT want the government telling us who we must give to. As opposed to the government, most church agencies help by giving a person a hand UP not giving them money to just stay put. Nothing is more demeaning than being on welfare. Much better is help in gaining job skills and learning to take care of one’s self. Even the mentally challenged, physically challeneged and mentally ill do MUCH better learning to take care of themselves to whatever degree that they can. So, I am NOT hate filled. I give more percentage wise than either Obama OR Mr. Catholisism himself Joe (sure I don’t support abortion but want others to go ahead and abort) Biden.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Why do you keep assuming that anyone receiving help from ‘socialist’ governments isn’t working, and doesn’t wish to?

Lots of people who do not want to work take advantage of it coming from a Federal level because it is so easy.

Therefore, the minor bits of socialism that do work in a government need to be left to the state and local governments.

 

[cynic]

Why do you assume that the right is “hate filled?” You will find that people that define themselves as conservatives are more likely to give to charity and to give a higher level of their monies to charity.
.

…isn’t that partly because conservatives tend to have more money to start with, and are in a better position to give?

We do NOT want the government telling us who we must give to.
.

Read:

We don’t want government telling us anything.

Others must live or die depending on our discretion.

We want the kudos from giving freely, and deem this more important than any outcome.

As opposed to the government, most church agencies help by giving a person a hand UP not giving them money to just stay put.
.

There were time limits now on welfare in the U.S, and in some cases job training is offered. Sounds like a hand up. There’s no reason why a few more rules can’t be applied.

Nothing is more demeaning than being on welfare
.

Read:

It should feel demeaning, in fact I hope it does, because my money is ‘stolen’ to pay for it.

Much better is help in gaining job skills and learning to take care of one’s self.
.

Hmm who pays for that? Oh right, we will, if we feel like it. Or not.

…Big chance that we won’t.

Even the mentally challenged, physically challeneged and mentally ill do MUCH better learning to take care of themselves to whatever degree that they can. So, I am NOT hate filled. I give more percentage wise than either Obama OR Mr. Catholisism himself Joe… Biden.

Great. Too bad most people aren’t praciticing Catholics.

 

[bbarrick8383]

…isn’t that partly because conservatives tend to have more money to start with, and are in a better position to give?

Liberals have some pretty heavy hitters on their side.

 

[narrowpath]

Maybe because it was do or die then? They did not have the abundance for everyone to take what they wanted when they wanted.

Capitalism may look like a big greedy fat white guy smoking a cigar counting his Benjamin’s, but if you kick Government regulations out of it, the blue collar workers that support it are better off.

The Big 3 auto manufacturers are a perfect example of what happens when Government regulations and unions take over and control a private business.

Socialism sounds good, but for some people its motivation comes from jealousy from those who have not towards those who have. Others truly believe it the middle class and below are better off, and it’s hard to see it, but they are not.

The pilgrims didn’t have much, but they shared what they did. This way, everyone got at least some food, shelter, etc. The community shared.

I think that the way socialism could work is if no one was forced into it. If people are forced into socialism, it will end badly, and corruption starts almost immediatly.

 

[hays1122]

I don’t understand this question. What do you mean were we tricked into anti-communism.
America has always been anti-communism.
Is our new president taking us into a socialist America?
That’s my question.
All the world is so happy to hear that we elected Obama.
The reason they’re so glad is because they are looking forward to us falling head first into becoming a 3rd world country.
No capitalism,no more freedom for Americans.
The America we once knew is starting to fade fast it seems.

 

[Ronald_E]

Is our new president taking us into a socialist America?
That’s my question.

No.

All the world is so happy to hear that we elected Obama.
The reason they’re so glad is because they are looking forward to us falling head first into becoming a 3rd world country.

The people who are happy are now filled with hope because they see the most powerful country in the world elect a man of color as president. It gives people of color in other countries a sense that they have value and, as a result, they will also value their unborn children because of the hope and value which are now a part of their inner life.
Your interpretation seems to be based on a lack of understanding of humanity. Every human being needs to have a sense of value based on the sole reality that they are human. Obama’s election will be the spark for the people of color around the world.

No capitalism,no more freedom for Americans.
The America we once knew is starting to fade fast it seems.

As people of faith we do not get our freedom from capitalism. We get our freedom from God. Our Christian faith was at its strongest under persecution. Capitalism is not the answer. God is the answer.
What America are you so upset about losing. It appears to me that America is becoming freer. If we experience a backlash from those we have judged as sinners then it is our own doing.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Why do you keep assuming that anyone receiving help from ‘socialist’ governments isn’t working, and doesn’t wish to?

That kind of hate-filled rhetoric seems to permeate every argument from the extreme right. How likely is it that people with money are going to give if they believe the “less productive” are simply lazy?

Your statement doesn’t logically follow mine-

It is a simple point of fact that those who receive “help” from the government have produced less than those who are funding that “help” with their taxes. If they produced as much as the rest of us, they wouldn’t be eligible for help, and they’d be paying taxes.

But anyway, I think your real intent was simply to find an avenue to accuse me of hating poor people…

So, here we go again…:banghead:

What you perceive as “hate” is, in reality, a sort of “tough love” that stems from my faith that everyone has the potential to become productive members of society, that there are enough good people willing to help them do that, and that anyone who wants to overcome the challenges of poverty has to put in a lot of hard work.

I think it is ironic that you accuse me of spewing “hate filled rhetoric” when you have gone on in this and other threads about how those in need are simply incapable of becoming productive members of society, and how you dismiss the whole idea of “charity” as a pipe dream based on your belief that the majority of people with means are hopelessly devoid of any concern for their fellow man.

If my method is “tough love,” then I think yours must be “benevolent hate.”

 

[hays1122]

No.

The people who are happy are now filled with hope because they see the most powerful country in the world elect a man of color as president. It gives people of color in other countries a sense that they have value and, as a result, they will also value their unborn children because of the hope and value which are now a part of their inner life.
Your interpretation seems to be based on a lack of understanding of humanity. Every human being needs to have a sense of value based on the sole reality that they are human. Obama’s election will be the spark for the people of color around the world.

As people of faith we do not get our freedom from capitalism. We get our freedom from God. Our Christian faith was at its strongest under persecution. Capitalism is not the answer. God is the answer.
What America are you so upset about losing. It appears to me that America is becoming freer. If we experience a backlash from those we have judged as sinners then it is our own doing.

I agree,as Christians we get our freedom from God.
As a nation under the socialist rule, we will not be free. At least not the kind of freedom we have enjoyed so far.
Little by little our freedoms are being taken away. Christmas is about giving the best most expensive presents. Christmas is about eating and family gatherings.
Yes as Christians we are free to celebrate Christ’s birth on Christmas but only to a certain extent. Just wait till December and notice how many Nativity scenes are on display.
Easter is about bunnies and picnics. The only place you’ll hear the meaning of Easter is inside a church.
Have you noticed how little is being said about the meaning of Thanksgiving these days? I have not heard any one talk about the pilgrims wanting to thank God for all he had done for them. It’s all about “turkey day”. The day we eat turkey.
I do understand what you say about why people around the world are glad to see an African American as our president. I am glad to see our country elect a man without considering his race.
But that does not take away from the fact that he is leading us into a socialist way of life.
Why would anyone want to “reach for the stars” if when you get there you will be made to feel selfish and uncaring. If you want to reach for the stars you make sure everyone else can come with you or don’t try at all.
America the land of opportunity. It’s not going to be that much longer.
I don’t think Martin Luther King dreamed of an African American becoming president and allowing God to be taken off our currency. And allowing socialism to replace capitalism.
Martin Luther King dreamed of the day an African American would become present and Keep God in the forefront of our way of life. A president who would remind our people why we came to this country and why we are who we are. Because our for fathers wanted Americans to be able to worship God freely. Our children in school could pray openly. We could have children coloring pictures of Jesus,Joseph and Mary in December. Instead of only a star or Santa Clause and maybe a Christmas tree.
Instead we have No Jesus,no God,no Angels in schools.
If president Obama changes things back to where it used to be when it comes to our religious freedoms, then I will be very proud of him for sure.