America was tricked into anti-Communism

[Hans_Peter]

Sweden is a country of 10 million that produces 2 brands of car exported all over the world.]

Volvo cars (as opposed to Volvo trucks) is owned by Ford, and Saab is owned by GM, both American firms.

As for the kibbutzim, here’s a summary of the state of affairs from the main Kibbutz organization (emphasis added):

The Kibbutz Movement - Facts and figures - 2008
At present (2008) there are 256 Kibbutzim in Israel (including 16 “religious kibbutzim”). Most of them are located in peripheral areas, from the most northern tip of the State to as far as the Deep South (Arava). Some-total of registered Kibbutz population amounts to app. 106,000 people, of whom a total of over 20,000 are children under the age of 18. One ought to notice that after almost two decades of an economic and social crisis in most sections of the Kibbutz Movement, resulting - among others- in a sharp decline of Kibbutz population, the last few years are indicating a fresh and a new trend. Many Kibbutzim report of growing numbers of youngsters – singles and families – seeking to join Kibbutzim, either as permanent members, or as non-member inhabitants. The main obstacle to a more speedy response to this potentially promising trend is lack of housing for absorption.

 

[thomfra]

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide.

Well here is the 2007/2008 human development index from 1 to 10
Most all of these countries have very good social programs that I am sure the average poster on this board would call “socialism”. Obviously Iceland will be slipping a few ranks next year…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Iceland 0.968 (▬)
Norway 0.968 (▬)
Australia 0.962 (▬)
Canada 0.961 (▲ 2)
Ireland 0.959 (▼ 1)
Sweden 0.956 (▼ 1)
Switzerland 0.955 (▲ 2)
Japan 0.953 (▼ 1)
Netherlands 0.953 (▲ 1)
France 0.952 (▲ 6)

 

[thomfra]

I get it from watching the news and from my travels outside of the US

So which countries have you been to in order to make this comparison?

 

[Oscarthecat]

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide.

Well here is the 2007/2008 human development index from 1 to 10
Most all of these countries have very good social programs that I am sure the average poster on this board would call “socialism”. Obviously Iceland will be slipping a few ranks next year…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Iceland 0.968 (▬)
Norway 0.968 (▬)
Australia 0.962 (▬)
Canada 0.961 (▲ 2)
Ireland 0.959 (▼ 1)
Sweden 0.956 (▼ 1)
Switzerland 0.955 (▲ 2)
Japan 0.953 (▼ 1)
Netherlands 0.953 (▲ 1)
France 0.952 (▲ 6)

Yeah, the HDI seems like an important measure when you present it in terms of rank- especially to those people in the US who don’t like hearing they’re not #1. Incidentally, the US places 12th, with a score of 0.951. But the “shock value” of that fades pretty quickly when people realize that the difference in scores between the 1st and 15th place is almost negligible. In fact, the difference between the first place and the US is .017, which is a subtle difference, to say the least.

The HDI has been widely criticized. On the one hand, it is essentially unable to do what it claims as does not in any way account for the wide range of socio-cultural factors which influence the three things it measures, or which may nullify some of these measures. On the other hand, its advocates try to apply it to any number of things that have nothing to do with it- they even claim that it is an inspiring and enlightened assessment of human development because only one of its three measures is explicitly economic. For example, as seen in the previous post, to assume cause and effect from the presence of social programs in the socialist leaning countries that strangely tend to be at the top of the list.

Furthermore, this measure ignores all those qualities that socialist and communist countries regard as impediments to creating their perfect society- for example, it does is not sufficient to measure, in any meaningful way, the protection of basic human rights, opportunities for individual freedom, individual participation in the political system, participation in economic development, gender and race equality, religious persecution…all those pesky things that get in the way of the grand plans of socialists and communists.

What is more interesting, to me, is why anyone should care that a measure developed by advocates of big government (socialists, marxists, etc) tends to favor countries that embrace big government models? The HDI is about as unbiased as a scientific study designed by wolves purporting to measure the health benefits of eating sheep.

 

[Oscarthecat]

So which countries have you been to in order to make this comparison?

You are setting up an argument around a statement that is widely recognized as nothing more than an aphorism. But your method uses the fallacy of confirmation and exception bias, and is a form of baiting.

You are setting this person up to discredit her original statement of opinion- and will inevitably claim that some variation on the theme that unless she has been to every country in the world, and has spent substantial amounts of time with the poor in each country, that she is unable to make the assessment that the poor people in the US are better off than the poor people in the rest of the world.

This is further accented by the patronizing tone of the statement:

Originally Posted by thomfra:
Ruthie, Ruthie, Where on earth did you get this idea from?

If you disagree with the assertion that the US has the “richest poor people in the world,” then just say so outright and provide your evidence, instead of spinning the discussion with logical fallacies.

But, as you probably already know (and is likely the reason for your tactic), that would be fruitless because of the glut of conflicting studies which claim that one country or another has the “richest poor people.” Each study focuses on different measures - ranging from general quality of life issues, healthcare issues, housing indicators, market participation, and even to climate conditions and easy access to unclaimed wild growing fruits and vegetables.

 

[rusty20]

Pope Leo’s Rerum Novarum details nicely why communism and socialism are not compatible with Christianity…

 

[RobbyS]

Those who give paychecks, and indirectly those who are in charge of taxes are the ones at the moment. I am not against wealth. But I think that if you have the money, you should do more than, say, a lower middle class person to help the country.

You must be kidding. Communism was rightly feared by the wealthy, and by the middle class, because Bolshvism was not just about the redistribution of wealth, it was about theft and murder, each on a large scale.

If you want a good account of the mind behind the Russian Revolution, I suggest you buy Solzhynitsin’s* Lenin in Zurich * It was like Hilter’s, a mind full of murderous rage, the mind of a dogmatist who succeeded only because he was willing, occasionally. to put it aside to win and hold onto power.

The formative movment of his life was when he stood and watched his older brother being executed for complicity in an attempts assasination of the Czar. Such a man had no hesitation in ordering the cold-blooded murder of the deposed Czar, wife,son and daughters.

Here was a man as cold and ruthless as his successor Stalin.
and who did whatever he needed to do to impose his will.

And he was not alone. Anyone who believes in communism, who believes that good and evil are reverse sides of the same coin, will act as he did. One finds them in every society, of course, even among devout Christians who slay others in the name of Christ. We become who we do. If we do good, we become good, even without faith. But if we act as if we have faith, we will have faith, for we can do nothing without grace. But if we refuse grace, we will be drawn into the black hole of evil.

Communism --like every other form of totalitarianism – is simply the gospel of evil.

 

[thomfra]

Yeah, the HDI seems like an important measure when you present it in terms of rank- especially to those people in the US who don’t like hearing they’re not #1. Incidentally, the US places 12th, with a score of 0.951. But the “shock value” of that fades pretty quickly when people realize that the difference in scores between the 1st and 15th place is almost negligible. In fact, the difference between the first place and the US is .017, which is a subtle difference, to say the least.

The HDI has been widely criticized. On the one hand, it is essentially unable to do what it claims as does not in any way account for the wide range of socio-cultural factors which influence the three things it measures, or which may nullify some of these measures. On the other hand, its advocates try to apply it to any number of things that have nothing to do with it- they even claim that it is an inspiring and enlightened assessment of human development because only one of its three measures is explicitly economic. For example, as seen in the previous post, to assume cause and effect from the presence of social programs in the socialist leaning countries that strangely tend to be at the top of the list.

Furthermore, this measure ignores all those qualities that socialist and communist countries regard as impediments to creating their perfect society- for example, it does is not sufficient to measure, in any meaningful way, the protection of basic human rights, opportunities for individual freedom, individual participation in the political system, participation in economic development, gender and race equality, religious persecution…all those pesky things that get in the way of the grand plans of socialists and communists.

What is more interesting, to me, is why anyone should care that a measure developed by advocates of big government (socialists, marxists, etc) tends to favor countries that embrace big government models? The HDI is about as unbiased as a scientific study designed by wolves purporting to measure the health benefits of eating sheep.

What a rambling and strange statement…

You started by saying “well the USA is really not that far behind” look…we are number 12…so you obvioulsy have some level of faith in this index.

Then you ended by saying “it means nothing”…and screaming communist conspiracy…

Which is it???

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy,** literacy**, educational attainment, and **GDP per capita **for countries worldwide.

Do you have a less politically biased method of measuring GDP and literacy. Please tell.

The point is, that “the evils of social democracy” manages to put these countries at the top of the UN development index table. Those countries are richer, people live longer and are better educated than in the US. You can ramble on about cause and effect, while the rest of us make more money and live longer in our socialist hell holes…

 

[Claude_Frollo]

The only bad about the Communism is the philosophy in the ideology which is against believing a God and then actively restricting to believe God in the community.

In this ideology there is no belief. A man needs a belief. Because he tends to believe. Even there is no place for God in Marxism, marxists believe in something too, but they don’t understand they really do believe, they believe in an utopie. They have very similar instincts as the religious instincts to do good but they are disordered.

I just think, a kind of socialism and Christianity could work great together.

 

[thomfra]

I just think, a kind of socialism and Christianity could work great together.

It does. It’s called Scandinavia/northern Europe.

 

[thomfra]

You are setting up an argument around a statement that is widely recognized as nothing more than an aphorism. But your method uses the fallacy of confirmation and exception bias, and is a form of baiting.

You are setting this person up to discredit her original statement of opinion- and will inevitably claim that some variation on the theme that unless she has been to every country in the world, and has spent substantial amounts of time with the poor in each country, that she is unable to make the assessment that the poor people in the US are better off than the poor people in the rest of the world.

This is further accented by the patronizing tone of the statement:

If you disagree with the assertion that the US has the “richest poor people in the world,” then just say so outright and provide your evidence, instead of spinning the discussion with logical fallacies.

But, as you probably already know (and is likely the reason for your tactic), that would be fruitless because of the glut of conflicting studies which claim that one country or another has the “richest poor people.” Each study focuses on different measures - ranging from general quality of life issues, healthcare issues, housing indicators, market participation, and even to climate conditions and easy access to unclaimed wild growing fruits and vegetables.

Point 1: I’d like to hear Ruthie qualify her statement. Unless you are her spokesperson?

Point 2: You seem to be purposely hazy when it comes to anything that might just detract from your argument that unhindered capitalism is the only way forward. To be a little crass here: If you leave your country and travel around a bit in the world it will become pretty bloody obvious that being dirt poor in the US is something entirely different to being dirt poor in western Europe (that place with the failing social democracy…i.e. the one with all the free education and health care and all those other horrific things people have inflicted on them)…

 

[Texas_Roofer]

NarrowPath said,

From taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

“In 2006, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.9 percent of all federal individual income taxes…”

Yes

In other words, the top 1 percent of earners paid almost 40 percent of the total taxes collected.

No absolutely not this is a dishonest trick laid upon the American people by a group of Republicans income taxes are not the major form of tax collection

The socialistic folks would **love **for you to believe the rich pay no taxes. **It’s not true. **

It depends on the game in play, capitalist pay differently than wage earners. Wage earners are treated unfairly in the system

What they’d like you to forget is that the rich people and corporations are the ones who give the rest of us jobs. How many people are employed by Microsoft? Take money away from them with punitive taxes, and people will lose their jobs.

Another example: I gather, for instance, that it takes about 6 people about 3 months to build a fancy yacht. (Statistics based on my fallible memory, from some TV show about shipbuilding.) So when a rich person buys a fancy yacht, they are giving 6 people employment for 3 months. If they wanted to buy a yacht, but instead must use that $ to pay taxes, who loses? Not the rich guy, who can live without a yacht. Not the Government. The more $ they get, the more ways they come up with to spend it.

So, who loses? Yep. You guessed it. The employees of the yacht builder. They lose 1/4 of a year’s wages. And maybe the yacht builder will have to go out of business, too. Then the employees get nothing. I wonder what jobs you can get with experience in yacht building? Oops, they’re back to entry-level, minimum wage jobs. Too bad. But at least we’re punishing the rich and redistributing the wealth. Yeah, right.

Capitalism works. It needs some checks and balances, but it works. That’s why we have the richest poor people in the world.

God bless us all, rich and poor,

Ruthie, the heartless Kapitalissst

Ruthie
That is not a bad example but it does have some problems. The “rich” are not giving at all they are trading. The “rich” are trading the same as the “employees” of the yacht company and for that manner the owners of the “yacht” company. The good of capitalism is free trade, the bad of communism ( and socialism) is it represses free trade.

 

[Oscarthecat]

To be a little crass here: If you leave your country and travel around a bit in the world it will become pretty bloody obvious that being dirt poor in the US is something entirely different to being dirt poor in western Europe

You’re absolutely correct- and the experience of being “poor” in the US and Europe is regarded as an acceptable, even desirable standard of living in other places throughout the world.

In the US, many of the people the media tells us are “poor” have cable, a good car, a good job, and enough money to go out to eat every other night, but make the conscious choice to go without healthcare in order to buy themselves a 50 inch plasma TV, and feel dissatisfied when they have to buy store brands instead of name brands.

From my experience being in Europe, and having numerous close family members were born, raised, and still live in Ireland, England, and Germany. I have met Europeans who consider themselves “poor,” because they don’t have much spending money, and haven’t had a job in over a year, but have no fear of losing their home or their possessions, missing a meal, or going without healthcare because their government provides that for them.

There are plenty of studies comparing and contrasting these two experiences of “poverty,” but neither is genuine poverty, and I think that calling one better than the other is splitting hairs.

(that place with the failing social democracy…i.e. the one with all the free education and health care and all those other horrific things people have inflicted on them)…

“Free” education and “Free” healthcare?
I think you misspoke- both the US and Europe provide public education and public healthcare, but these services are not free.

They are funded by taking money away from workers and business owners under the threat of force.

 

[thomfra]

“Free” education and “Free” healthcare?
I think you misspoke- both the US and Europe provide public education and public healthcare, but these services are not free.

They are funded by taking money away from workers and business owners under the threat of force.

A agree. Comparing who is poorest is splitting hairs.

But all in all I would rather be poor in a country where my kids (despite my own stupidity, and lack of economic common sense) have a chance to get educated and get hospital treatment. After all, it’s not their fault I’m an idiot!!! Get what I’m saying…

Yes. Tax. We pay it, we get all these nice things for our tax dollars or kroners, or pounds or Euros…and STILL live longer and are better educated. So which system works…best…well who knows…but there is nothing wrong with social democracies…

 

[Oscarthecat]

What a rambling and strange statement…

I know- valid criticisms of socialism must seem bizarre to people who have been so indoctrinated with socialist principles. On a completely unrelated topic, I’ve read that people with Stockholm Syndrome have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to take them away from their captors.

You started by saying “well the USA is really not that far behind” look…we are number 12…so you obvioulsy have some level of faith in this index.

No, I was pointing out that emphasizing rankings is a way to mask the fact that the difference between the 1st and 12th place is negligible.

Then you ended by saying “it means nothing”…and screaming communist conspiracy…

Which is it???

Both- the HDI can be validly criticized on multiple levels.

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy,** literacy**, educational attainment, and **GDP per capita **for countries worldwide.

Do you have a less politically biased method of measuring GDP and literacy. Please tell.

Lack of a better method does not validate an inherently flawed method.

The HDI is a bad measure. Comparing it to other bad measures doesn’t change that.

The point is, that “the evils of social democracy” manages to put these countries at the top of the UN development index table. Those countries are richer, people live longer and are better educated than in the US. You can ramble on about cause and effect, while the rest of us make more money and live longer in our socialist hell holes…

Finally- thank you. I am relieved to finally hear a socialist european tell me that they are going to stop telling the rest of the world how to live.

 

[Oscarthecat]

A agree. Comparing who is poorest is splitting hairs.

Great. I’m glad we agree.

But all in all I would rather be poor in a country where my kids (despite my own stupidity, and lack of economic common sense) have a chance to get educated and get hospital treatment. After all, it’s not their fault I’m an idiot!!! Get what I’m saying…

Yes. Tax. We pay it, we get all these nice things for our tax dollars or kroners, or pounds or Euros…and STILL live longer and are better educated. So which system works…best…well who knows…but there is nothing wrong with social democracies…

just couldn’t help yourself, could you?

There’s nothing wrong with social democracies?

That’s a very ambitious claim, but I think you might be overstating your case.

Either way, I prefer to keep making do with my liberty and freedom rather than give them up for the empty promises of socialist idealism.

 

[cynic]

Yes. Tax. We pay it, we get all these nice things for our tax dollars or kroners, or pounds or Euros…and STILL live longer and are better educated. So which system works…best…well who knows…but there is nothing wrong with social democracies…

Couldn’t have put it better. Social democracies can ensure that everyone has opportunity, but ussually at the expense of GDP.

I would rather that children from poor communities have opportunity, with the rich and middle earners (me) having our money ‘stolen’ from us ‘unjustly’, than have some nightmare libertarian alternative. Not least because without opportunity, those same kids might otherwise grow up to be criminals, and bash me on the street, or break into my dwelling and take my possessions etc

 

[happygal]

Communism…i don’t really know much about it…apart from the education where i studied Marx/Lenin…
The current issue is my current boyfriend is a communist in China…
He don’t believe in God, coz he mentioned his party does not allows that…blar…blar…he would only believes if he can see God…I have a hard time sharing with him about God (While i was kinda of affected him, instead of ministering to him, he minister back to me) he did followed me to church and the last visitation was kinda of an impact to him, coz he was weeping…i believed God had an encounter with him…!!! although he didn’t said much…but still he is finding it hard to open his heart to accept Jesus Christ deal to his communist background…

 

[thomfra]

Either way, I prefer to keep making do with my liberty and freedom rather than give them up for the empty promises of socialist idealism.

Well yes. You will just have to make do I’m afraid.

 

[AnnieMarie527]

I must first start off this post by saying that I am quite impressed with the level of understanding of the subject matter in question, both by the support and the opposition.

Secondly, I would like to use one of my first posts to weigh in on this subject. Actually, it won’t exactly be weighing in, more like giving two cents.

Aside from the fact that history has shown us that Socialsm does not a prosperous country make, lets take this down to a more basic level. As Catholics, as Chrisitans, we are all encouraged to follow the path that Christ has shown us. Sure, governent enforced soical justice seems like a great idea, built upon tenets that those who are less fortunate can prosper with the spreading of the wealthy’s riches. But does that really embody the true spirit of Chrisitanity? Of the teachings of our Catholic faith?

The burden to give, to care for your fellow man should be one of your own. It should be a concisous decision to give, to provide. When you see a derelict man on the street who asks for change, do you give it to him freely of your own will, regardless of what he may do with the money? Think of how you would feel if you had a hulking man standing behind you, forcing you to dig into your pocket to give the homeless man money. Doesn’t make much sense does it?

Spiritual growth and enlightenment come from the choices that we make as individuals. Again, the burden to give and to care for one another should come from an individual persepctive. It should not be forced upon us by the government, especially a government who chooses to give for the sole purpose of power, not the greater good of their fellow man.