Americans and the Catholic Church

[Hieronymus]

Franze:

In Spain we aren´t better, well, we need more example, more praying, and more good pastors.

Uhh… Spain. What has happened with you there? It was a strong catholic country and now I read in news that there are so much liberal things that confronts with catholic faith.

it is very saddly and there are real need for prayers about Your country.

 

[Ter]

Hi Fergal,

While things are serious in Ireland be aware that they are not as bad as the media would like us to think. The media constantly shades things & doesn’t report the good in the Church.

I’m sure you’ve heard the old the chruch is dying out, no young people go to Mass any more etc. over and over. I am 26 and I can tell you that there is a growing number of young people who are active & orthodox in their faith within the Church in Ireland but you never hear about them or the numbers attending retreats etc. There are 130 people going to WYD from my diocese [Kildare & Leighlin] as part of the diocesian pilgrimage & many others going through other groups.

There has also been an increase in the number of vocations in recent years (while still below what we had or need).

What really brought the media bias home to me was the coverage of John Paul II’s death & the election of Benedict XVI. Did you notice that the clips they showed of people at mass in the days after John Paul II’s death had only a few old people. That is inaccurate - I bet they went to a 10 o’clock mass in Dublin city centre or something, when all the younger people would have been at work.

P.S. As you may have gathered I don’t much like the Irish media

 

[SeekerJen]

geezerbob:

Back on topic, I think that a large percentage of Americans (and Europeans) have so distanced themselves from Christ’s teachings and become so hard of heart that they don’t really realize what they’re trying to do. It seems to be that “me first” mentality of materialism taking over.

Yup, and “me first” doesn’t just apply to religion. Someone cuts you off on the freeway? Well, of course you pull up alongside them and shoot them. Want that last Tickle-Me-Elmo? Beat up the mom who got to the toy store shelf first, and claim your prize. Someone catches your kid cheating on a test? Skip over disciplining the kid in favor of hiring a lawyer and suing the school. You want to be wealthy but don’t want to work honestly? Get yourself into a position of power at a big corp., cook the books, hope it doesn’t go the way of Enron, and screw the stockholders! You want to unload your disabled wife without divorcing her, so you can be with the woman with whom you’ve been committing adultery? Get the courts to declare that her life is worthless and that she should be starved to death, then see it through.

Ahh, American “morality”. It amazes me how whiny and spoiled the dissenters sound. “Waa-waa! Why won’t the Church do what I want?” I used to be one of them. I am ashamed at the thought that I used to sound like that! Thank God the Church continues to uphold the Truth. No one else will!

 

[m134e5]

I’m speaking based only on my own observation- and hope no one is offended here…The problem with American Catholics is there is too much national pride- they’re Americans first, and Catholics second. The U.S. emerged as a world superpower after World War I., and World War II solidified that. With the fall of the Soviet Union (which many Americans say it was all because of the U.S.- never mind the Pope’s influence, or the fact that Communism just doesn’t work), Americans got the idea that they were invincible. We didn’t like what we saw in Yugoslavia, so we overthrew their government. We jumped right in to Afghanistan after they attacked us, and overthrew their government, and put in a new one to our liking. We didn’t like what was going on in Iraq, so we overthrew their government and put a government in that satisfies us. Americans think their way of doing things is the only good way to do things.

 

[OriginalJS]

mtr01:

Americans, as a whole, have a superiority complex. Our form of goverment is the best form of government; our lifestyle is the best lifestyle; our views and opinions are the most important views and opinions; our grievances are the most important grievances and should be addressed first and without regard to the concerns of others, after all, we’re Americans!

And, who, in most countries of the world, doesn’t think the same about his country?

 

[OriginalJS]

m134e5:

I’m speaking based only on my own observation- and hope no one is offended here…The problem with American Catholics is there is too much national pride- they’re Americans first, and Catholics second.

This is correct. In the United States, at least, culture generally trumps religion. There are exceptions, but they are relatively rare. On a great many social issues today, Catholic opinion is substantially the same as the general public opinion. An example: the use of artifical birth control by the general population and by Catholics - the rates are about the same.

 

[UnworthySoul]

starrs0:

The Church is America needs a stern talking to from our new Holy Father and if that doen’t work a good spankning is in order.

Agreed. But so do American Catholics who feel it is their perogative to decide what articles of fait they will believe. EWTN ran a Mass by Fr. Corapi (first time I’ve heard of him, amazing man!) who said it like it is. Fr. Corapi was dead on accurate in talking about the need to stick to doctrine or face the fact that you’re a heretic. Harsh, but necessary perhaps? Worth reflecting on.

 

[UnworthySoul]

m134e5:

I’m speaking based only on my own observation- and hope no one is offended here…The problem with American Catholics is there is too much national pride- they’re Americans first, and Catholics second. The U.S. emerged as a world superpower after World War I., and World War II solidified that. With the fall of the Soviet Union (which many Americans say it was all because of the U.S.- never mind the Pope’s influence, or the fact that Communism just doesn’t work), Americans got the idea that they were invincible. We didn’t like what we saw in Yugoslavia, so we overthrew their government. We jumped right in to Afghanistan after they attacked us, and overthrew their government, and put in a new one to our liking. We didn’t like what was going on in Iraq, so we overthrew their government and put a government in that satisfies us. Americans think their way of doing things is the only good way to do things.

The only thing I absolutely must take issue with is that going into Afghanistan WAS justified. No question in my mind.

 

[JW10631]

ani ibi - We do have some good hockey programs in the US. We just don’t have enough of them. High school hockey is tremendously popular in Western Pennsylvania.

fergal - I have read that Catholics outside of Dublin are more faithful. Is this true?

As for American Catholics - we are not all bad. The church in the United States has about 60 million members (of varying faithfulness), which makes the Church in the United States likely the third largest in the world behind Brazil and Mexico. A lot of the money to operate the Vatican comes from the US - this was according to Business Week a few years ago.

What the Church needs - in the United States and the world over - is a good dose of orthodoxy. It will be a painful cure to some of the heterodox but it does work.

 

[Bulldog]

It sad that most US Americans don’t realize that we are not a Democracy, but a Republic with a slight socialistic complex and Democratic principles thoughts. With that said, maybe people will get rid of the “Me Me” frame of mind and work toward a Christ centric mode with little help of Our Lady.

 

[Lisa_N]

Melissa:

There is a democratic church in America–it’s known as the Episcopal church. Seeing what democracy in a church brought about was one of the reasons that I began looking much harder at the Catholic Church.

FWIW ironically the radical changes in the Episcopal church were NOT made democratically. The female priests were ordained ‘outside the gate’ by a Bishop who was retiring. The homo. bishop was voted in, not by the members but by another group of radicals. I don’t think the membership necessarily wanted these changes but they have soldiered on, some of them, and of course some have left.

Lisa N

 

[Bootoo]

I am an American Catholic. Unfortunately, I think that Americans in general tend to forget that the universe doesn’t revolve around the USA. Case in point: When the new Pope was selected and was speaking from the balconey, I was at work, and watching the TV in a patient waiting room, and one of the patients asked me why he wasn’t speaking in English!

I think that American Catholics basically forget that there are a whole lot of other Catholics in the world, except for occasions like these last few weeks, when it becomes so clear.

 

[Melissa]

Lisa N:

FWIW ironically the radical changes in the Episcopal church were NOT made democratically. The female priests were ordained ‘outside the gate’ by a Bishop who was retiring. The homo. bishop was voted in, not by the members but by another group of radicals. I don’t think the membership necessarily wanted these changes but they have soldiered on, some of them, and of course some have left.

Well, actually, the way was opened through their internal democratic process with the House of Bishops & House of Deputies (it’s been about 7 years since I left the Episcopal church, so I don’t remember what they called the meeting of the two houses). Basically, those groups did vote (democratically) on those issues and approved them (I know the acceptance of homosexuality preceded the homosexual bishop)–and being willing to put things up to a democratic vote would encourage the issue w/ the women priests which was ultimately voted on and approved. When I first joined them (18 years ago), I thought how great it was. Eleven years showed me how bankrupt the idea of allowing a church’s rules to be set by a structure modeled after the US Congress.

 

[slinky1882]

Bulldog:

It sad that most US Americans don’t realize that we are not a Democracy, but a Republic with a slight socialistic complex and Democratic principles thoughts. With that said, maybe people will get rid of the “Me Me” frame of mind and work toward a Christ centric mode with little help of Our Lady.

Very true, on the government part, we are not a true Democracy nor Republic. And not all Catholic Americans are bad, but I find it ironic in polling, why whould the press poll people who no longer go to Church or bother to try to understand the Faith??? Thanks and God Bless.

 

[UnworthySoul]

slinky1882:

Very true, on the government part, we are not a true Democracy nor Republic. And not all Catholic Americans are bad, but I find it ironic in polling, why whould the press poll people who no longer go to Church or bother to try to understand the Faith??? Thanks and God Bless.

Why would the press poll those people? Simple. Agenda.

 

[sparkle]

slinky1882:

Why do you suppose that Americans want to change the Church and make it more “democratic” in light of the fact that US Catholics make up maybe 5% of the world’s Catholics??? In order to be truly fair democratically speaking, Americans should only have about 5% of the total say. Any thoughts on undemocratic democracy (i.e. US Catholics wanted the Universal Church to bend to their wims)??? Thanks and God Bless.

Because, IMO, because America is the most messed up country in the world, I think. Consumerism, relativism, greed, the media, morals, etc., and the beautiful CC stands for TRUTH.

 

[Dredgemate]

Fergal:

Keep Ireland in your prayers.

Ireland is always in my prayers (as well as my dreams) .

It’s like the Holy Father has said recently, we are in the grips of Moral Relativism.

 

[TeriGator]

SeekerJen:

Someone cuts you off on the freeway? Well, of course you pull up alongside them and shoot them. Want that last Tickle-Me-Elmo? Beat up the mom who got to the toy store shelf first, and claim your prize. Someone catches your kid cheating on a test? Skip over disciplining the kid in favor of hiring a lawyer and suing the school. You want to be wealthy but don’t want to work honestly? Get yourself into a position of power at a big corp., cook the books, hope it doesn’t go the way of Enron, and screw the stockholders! You want to unload your disabled wife without divorcing her, so you can be with the woman with whom you’ve been committing adultery? Get the courts to declare that her life is worthless and that she should be starved to death, then see it through.

You and I seem to have similar opinions. That was reminiscent of my frequent rants about what our society has degenerated into. I find myself reading the paper and shaking my head in disgust on a daily basis. We are all so “entitled” in this country that anyone who dares suggest that individual needs and desires are not paramount is vilified and/or ignored. :banghead:

 

[TeriGator]

m134e5:

I’m speaking based only on my own observation- and hope no one is offended here…The problem with American Catholics is there is too much national pride- they’re Americans first, and Catholics second.

There is truth in what you say. However, it’s not just that. The American society has become a me-first society, as pointed out earlier. We are being fed the idea that the needs and desires of the individual outweigh the good of the many, so obviously that applies to our religious life as well.

If I want something, it has to be good. And if a lot of us want it, it has to be right and true, so everyone should be forced to accept it.

“Tolerance” is such a buzzword in this country, but all it really means is that you have to tolerate whatever I want. If you don’t, then you will be kicked off the island.

Now that I have both Star Trek and Survivor references in my rant, I’ll go back to my pharmacy studies.

 

[HagiaSophia]

slinky1882:

Why do you suppose that Americans want to change the Church and make it more “democratic” in light of the fact that US Catholics make up maybe 5% of the world’s Catholics??? In order to be truly fair democratically speaking, Americans should only have about 5% of the total say. Any thoughts on undemocratic democracy (i.e. US Catholics wanted the Universal Church to bend to their wims)??? Thanks and God Bless.

Actually I am going to disagree with your initial premise; it is not simply that Americans wish to change the church – it is an endemic movement which has swept through the Americas and Europe primarily.

It’'s root cause is that instead of man being made in the image of God, these men wish to remake God in the image of man. From this poison has flowed dissent, separation of church members, one from the other, from congregations and last, but certainly not least, the plague of national councils of bishops.

When bishops spoke for their individual dioceses, everyone knew who they were and what they said; under the national councils, it is a nameless faceless bunch of bureaucrats, backed up often by staff, who are the point guard for all kinds of “man made” theology.

In Germany for instance, the numbers of “progressives” are calling for far more progressive change than most here in the US-- in France, they really don’t pay any attention at all; and as the Celtic Tiger has grown in economic strength bringing prosperity to the Irish, many of them have fallen into the trap of the “modern phillosophies”. The country of Spain has within the past 12 months, striven hard to completely disassociate itself with its own Catholic history and heritage and in Canada, well, we’ve discussed much of here in this very forum. Then we have South and Central America - where marxists and communists seek to use Jesus and the gospels for their social agendas, trying to disguise it as “godly” And I am ashamed to say, that these political and social radicals are often led and fueled by members of our own clergy from at least three different orders, once known for their glorious service to God. A pox be on them and on their houses.

Yet, there are streams – small streams carrying the words of the water of life, of strong Catholic faith, of families who seek something better and the young, who are already disenchanted with the being fed stones instead of bread. For years now, many of us have cried out with the Magdalen, "Oh where have they taken my Lord, I know not where they have laid Him…JPII the Great and now Benedict the Blessed have answered those questions, it is up to us, now to pick up our responsibilities and move forward with them.

As for those who wish to take any means to self flagellate themselves or their countrymen, you are no better, but certainly no worse than your continental counterparts. Greed, corruption, the dissenters, the refusal like Lucifer to say aloud, the plain truth, it is not that we cannot serve, it is that we will not serve.