Amnesty Dead for now!

[Ani_Ibi]

screwoelmexico:

WOW.

Just wondering about your username.

Forum rules:

If the user name you choose contains offensive or misleading elements or innuendo, your account will be canceled and you will be banned from future participation at this site.

Since you are very new to the forum, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the mod to be merciful and let you change your username.

 

[MulusChristi]

LCMS_No_More:

Normally, it wouldn’t be a partisan issue, but it is now. The cloture vote went down on partisan lines. It’s the wedge issue of 2006 that the Republicans are going to use this year in their election campaigns. That’s how they win…by dividing people with wedge issues.

Hello LCMS,

Come, come. The Democrats never use wedge issues? Is that why republicans are attacked on race issues every election? What about Edwards’ ham-handed “two americas” rhetoric. Listen to Jimma Carter’s slanders about republicans.

Also, I have to disagree with your analysis. As a republican, I am furious with the party for nearly passing an amnesty. I am frustrated that neither dems nor republicans seem to take our national sovereignty seriously. This is an issue that could make me vote democratic, if the right candidate came along. I’d even relook at Hillary if she were credible on this issue. Luckily, she is so devoid of principle that I won’t have that moral quandary.

So I think this little senatorial exercise is a net loss for the republican base. It is another illustration that the reps are almost indistinguishable from dems. I think midterm elections are looking bad for us conservatives, so take heart.

 

[Geldain]

MikeWM:

It’s the way you are treating these people that is leading to this anger from the immigrant community.

Yeah, the US is brutal, expecting people to not break immigration laws

If you restructure your economy so no illegal immigrants are required, then the cards are placed differently.

Actually, if we stopped aborting 30-40 million babies every 30 years we wouldn’t need any extra workers.

But it is extremely unfair to treat these people like dirt at the same time as needing them to keep everything ticking over.

Holding people accountable for breaking the law = treating them like dirt? Wow, never thought of that one before

While you need them, treat them right.

When they are breaking the law, then treat them accordingly.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

MulusChristi:

Beautiful reflection on reconciliation. But there is just one problem. Reconciliation requires contrition on the part of the offender. I didn’t see alot of contrition in those marches over the last week. Or were those Mexican flags symbols of contrition?

I don’t know what you saw, but I was working in downtown Los Angeles when the protests were going on. I saw things with my own eyes.

Here’s what I saw here in downtown LA during the day of the big rally. I work at Fourth and Broadway here in downtown LA. The view from my office is from the 8th floor looking north (toward City Hall) up Broadway (the march took place walking toward City Hall up Broadway). I saw what I thought was at least 750,000 people. Almost everyone wore white shirts. I saw lots of US flags (the mainstream media doesn’t show you that, FOX"News" least of all) and a few flags of other countries here and there. I saw lots of signs with a No on 4437 message. I had to walk through part of this crowd (to get from the Metro station to my office - driving to the office would have been impossible) and no one gave me any dirty looks or had a bad word to say to me. It was done respectfully and peacefully.

That the mainstream media failed to, or refused to, report what really went on, at least in Los Angeles, is sad. But since they’re in the business of infotainment, I’m sure they decided to show only the most inflammatory things. The Mexican flag over an upside down US flag is a very inflammatory symbol. There are two guilty parties involved with it. First, the fool who flew the flags that way. Second, the right-wing media for emphasizing it and, by failure to report the whole truth, making it appear that all the people at the rallies were of this stripe.

It’s not true. It’s right-wing spin and I can say so because I was there!

Oh, and on the part about contrition. Aside from the civil infraction of illegal entry and the unlawful use of false documents, most illegal immigrants don’t violate any laws. The act of contrition would be coming forward and paying the fine, learning US civics and English.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

Nope.
Not a general pardon, there were still penalties involved.

How about the full definition:

Main Entry: am·nes·ty [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascriptopWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?amnest01.wav=amnesty’))
Pronunciation: 'am-n&-stE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Greek *amnEstia *forgetfulness, from *amnEstos *forgotten, from *a- + mnasthai *to remember – more at MIND
: the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals

• amnesty transitive verb

Essentially, what the government will do is pardon these people.

LCMS_No_More:

The acts of a few fools does not reflect the opinion of all. Should I say that the KKK represents the views of all white people? How about the Black Panthers for all black people?

There are not millions and millions of members of the KKK or Black Panthers, and they don’t go out in force protest just laws.

LCMS_No_More:

Dems?

Democrats.

LCMS_No_More:

Normally, it wouldn’t be a partisan issue, but it is now. The cloture vote went down on partisan lines. It’s the wedge issue of 2006 that the Republicans are going to use this year in their election campaigns. That’s how they win…by dividing people with wedge issues.

Democrats do the exact same thing.

 

[Della]

screwoelmexico:

If the Mexican Anarchy despises the American Government for ENFORCING HER LAWS then LETS GO TO WAR. I actually believe a conflict with Mexico or Mexicans will be neccesary in the future.

Well, I’m not fond of the Mexican government, either. I pity the citizens of Mexico who are daily told that all their woes can be blamed on the USA when huge numbers of them living in poverty is 99% of their own government’s fault, but let’s hope it doesn’t come to war.

Cut welfare, coerce the companies to pay minimum wage and we will cover the work deficet. What have mexican contributed to society? A Bunch of work? We can fulfill the working deficit. THEY ARE CRIMINALS! Deport them!

I too believe we ought to cut welfare and require the able bodied who are not working to take up the jobs the immigrants are now doing. Treating illegals as criminals isn’t really going to solve the problem, though. If there are no jobs for them here, they will stop coming here–it’s really that simple.

 

[MulusChristi]

MikeWM:

It’s the way you are treating these people that is leading to this anger from the immigrant community.

If you restructure your economy so no illegal immigrants are required, then the cards are placed differently. But it is extremely unfair to treat these people like dirt at the same time as needing them to keep everything ticking over. While you need them, treat them right.

Mike

Hello Mike,
The next time your house is being robbed and trashed, I’ll deliver the same lecture to you about how you offended the robber. We do not treat them like dirt. We treat them better than their OWN country does. And as thanks we get demonstrations and expectations that they have a right to be treated like citizens when they weren’t even invited here.

 

[MikeWM]

MulusChristi:

The next time your house is being robbed and trashed, I’ll deliver the same lecture to you about how you offended the robber.

A very poor analogy. These people aren’t robbing or trashing anything; indeed they are an important part of keeping the economy going.

We do not treat them like dirt.

No, you just compare them to thieves

We treat them better than their OWN country does.

Irrelevant. Treat them as you ought. It’s irrelevant what others do.

And as thanks we get demonstrations and expectations that they have a right to be treated like citizens when they weren’t even invited here.

So make your economy work without them. As I said, then the arguments change.

Mike

 

[LCMS_No_More]

wabrams:

How about the full definition:

Essentially, what the government will do is pardon these people.

No, they are replacing one punishment (forced deportation and banishment) with another, lighter, but more difficult, one.

There are not millions and millions of members of the KKK or Black Panthers, and they don’t go out in force protest just laws.

And the people saying what you allege is the mainstream message of illegal immigrants aren’t millions and millions. The people making this kinds of claims are a small minority of activists who are mostly Chicano (Mexican-Americans), not illegal immigrant.

And it is a lie to say that mostly Mexican flags were used at the protests. That’s what the mainstream/right-wing media shows you. That’s not what happened. I was there, in person, watching from my office window.

Democrats do the exact same thing.

Wedge issues? No, I don’t think so. Not on this kind of scale.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

Here’s what I saw here in downtown LA during the day of the big rally. I work at Fourth and Broadway here in downtown LA. The view from my office is from the 8th floor looking north (toward City Hall) up Broadway (the march took place walking toward City Hall up Broadway). I saw what I thought was at least 750,000 people. Almost everyone wore white shirts. I saw lots of US flags (the mainstream media doesn’t show you that, FOX"News" least of all) and a few flags of other countries here and there. I saw lots of signs with a No on 4437 message. I had to walk through part of this crowd (to get from the Metro station to my office - driving to the office would have been impossible) and no one gave me any dirty looks or had a bad word to say to me. It was done respectfully and peacefully.

That the mainstream media failed to, or refused to, report what really went on, at least in Los Angeles, is sad. But since they’re in the business of infotainment, I’m sure they decided to show only the most inflammatory things. The Mexican flag over an upside down US flag is a very inflammatory symbol. There are two guilty parties involved with it. First, the fool who flew the flags that way. Second, the right-wing media for emphasizing it and, by failure to report the whole truth, making it appear that all the people at the rallies were of this stripe.

And CBS, CNN, AP, et al showed were nice pictures of people holding a Mexico flag next to the US flag and “No on 4437” signs. What they did show were the uncropped version of those photos with a sea of Mexican flags, maybe another US flag, and many signs with obcentities on them.

LCMS_No_More:

The Mexican flag over an upside down US flag is a very inflammatory symbol. There are two guilty parties involved with it. First, the fool who flew the flags that way. Second, the right-wing media for emphasizing it and, by failure to report the whole truth, making it appear that all the people at the rallies were of this stripe.

The fools are the actual perpetrators and the MSM that acted like it’s no big deal to do that kind of thing.

LCMS_No_More:

It’s not true. It’s right-wing spin and I can say so because I was there!

It’s left wing spin becuase their are hundreds of blogs by people who attended these protests all over the southwest and their raw photos show something very different from the MSM.

 

[MulusChristi]

LCMS_No_More:

It’s not true. It’s right-wing spin and I can say so because I was there!

.

I remember so many times in the 80’s when I would encounter lefties who would say “I went to Cuba/Nicaragua/EastGernany; it’s a great place”. So your experience may not be entirely representative. I was not there, but I also found things unreported, like the overwhelming presence of Mexican, not US flags. And also the calls to reclaim “Aztlan” or “Alta California” for Mexico. That kind of stuff makes me very nervous. It also makes me wonder which country this is.

LCMS_No_More:

Oh, and on the part about contrition. Aside from the civil infraction of illegal entry and the unlawful use of false documents, most illegal immigrants don’t violate any laws. The act of contrition would be coming forward and paying the fine, learning US civics and English.

With all charity, these are not minor things! If your house were robbed, how would you feel if the police just said, “it’s only illegal entry”?

Forging documents was one of the main things which turned up in the Sept. 11 investigations. Our national security is seriously endangered by this stuff!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

wabrams:

And CBS, CNN, AP, et al showed were nice pictures of people holding a Mexico flag next to the US flag and “No on 4437” signs. What they did show were the uncropped version of those photos with a sea of Mexican flags, maybe another US flag, and many signs with obcentities on them.

The fools are the actual perpetrators and the MSM that acted like it’s no big deal to do that kind of thing.

It’s left wing spin becuase their are hundreds of blogs by people who attended these protests all over the southwest and their raw photos show something very different from the MSM.

Then my eyes lied to me when, from my 8th floor window, I saw hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of US flags and maybe dozens of flags of other countries.

Yeah, that’s it.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

No, they are replacing one punishment (forced deportation and banishment) with another, lighter, but more difficult, one.

Following the law towards citizenship is a punishment now?

LCMS_No_More:

And the people saying what you allege is the mainstream message of illegal immigrants aren’t millions and millions. The people making this kinds of claims are a small minority of activists who are mostly Chicano (Mexican-Americans), not illegal immigrant.

So you were there with all of them? You checked birth certificates and SS cards?

LCMS_No_More:

And it is a lie to say that mostly Mexican flags were used at the protests. That’s what the mainstream/right-wing media shows you. That’s not what happened. I was there, in person, watching from my office window.

Again, CBS, CNN, AP, et al showed nice pictures of people holding a Mexico flag next to the US flag and “No on 4437” signs. What they did show were the uncropped version of those photos with a sea of Mexican flags, maybe another US flag, and many signs with obcentities on them

LCMS_No_More:

Wedge issues? No, I don’t think so. Not on this kind of scale.

Thank you! I needed a good laugh today.

 

[wabrams]

MikeWM:

A very poor analogy. These people aren’t robbing or trashing anything; indeed they are an important part of keeping the economy going.

No, you just compare them to thieves

Irrelevant. Treat them as you ought. It’s irrelevant what others do.

So make your economy work without them. As I said, then the arguments change.

Mike

But let’s not forget the way your countrymen treat Indians: like second class citizens. I’ve met many an Englishman that have commented how we treat the Mexican immigrants, legal or illegal, much better then they treat the Indians.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

Then my eyes lied to me when, from my 8th floor window, I saw hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of US flags and maybe dozens of flags of other countries.

Yeah, that’s it.

One demonstration, in one day, in one city doesn’t speak for all of them as a whole. If one anti-war protest goes smoothly and politely, and 20 more are violent, protesters spewing obsentities, etc., kinda makes that one peaceful one inconsequential.

 

[MulusChristi]

MikeWM:

A very poor analogy. These people aren’t robbing or trashing anything; indeed they are an important part of keeping the economy going.

I guess you haven’t read about what is happening to our border areas. This stuff is going on.

MikeWM:

No, you just compare them to thieves

They are.

MikeWM:

Irrelevant. Treat them as you ought. It’s irrelevant what others do.

We do; tha’s part of why they keep coming.

MikeWM:

So make your economy work without them. As I said, then the arguments change.

Mike

Not at all. Our economy would be alot healthier without the exploitation which our businesses are perpetrating upon them

Mike, I see you are from the UK and I believe seeing reports that your country is also being overrun by illegals.

My only consolation is that, if our US invasion is unchecked I’ll still get to be Catholic. You will be under sharia law.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

MulusChristi:

I remember so many times in the 80’s when I would encounter lefties who would say “I went to Cuba/Nicaragua/EastGernany; it’s a great place”. So your experience may not be entirely representative. I was not there, but I also found things unreported, like the overwhelming presence of Mexican, not US flags. And also the calls to reclaim “Aztlan” or “Alta California” for Mexico. That kind of stuff makes me very nervous. It also makes me wonder which country this is.

Using the rhetoric of radical Chicano activists and umputing it to millions of people who have nothing to do with the activists is a dishonest tactic.

With all charity, these are not minor things! If your house were robbed, how would you feel if the police just said, “it’s only illegal entry”?

Under the current law, it is a civil infraction which is only punishable by deportation.

Forging documents was one of the main things which turned up in the Sept. 11 investigations. Our national security is seriously endangered by this stuff!

By terrorists, not by the vast majority of illegal immigrants.

In fact, the proposed law would actually AUGMENT our national security by bringing all these people out of the darkness where we know who’s here and where they’re from.

Sometimes, you have to be practical about the law. Aside from the violation of the civil law (which is still punished under the regularization proposals), I can’t think of a good, practical reason why the proposals are bad.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More,

If you say the parts of the protest you witnessed in LA was peacful, I believe you. But in a lot of other cities it hasn’t been as smooth as what you saw, and yes the MSM, not the right wing media, is the one showing cropped down pictures. For every protest picture I saw on cbs.com, cnn.com, ap newswire, etc., I saw four or five other sites with the uncropped originals of thos pictures and they told a completely different story.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

MulusChristi:

Forging documents was one of the main things which turned up in the Sept. 11 investigations. Our national security is seriously endangered by this stuff!

Yep. It’s not just Mexican citizens crossing the border to earn a few bucks to send back home. It’s drug traffickers and – most worrisome of all – it’s folks with links to terrorist organizations.

When all is said and done, the US, Canada, and Mexico have to agree on a perimeter defence which is effective against further terrorist incursions. This must involve economic development in all three countries and sensible trade enforcement.

Frankly, with Chavez and Castro posturing to the south, I think these precautions should be extended beyond the Nafta partners. And will be.

 

[Della]

wabrams:

But let’s not forget the way your countrymen treat Indians: like second class citizens. I’ve met many an Englishman that have commented how we treat the Mexican immigrants, legal or illegal, much better then they treat the Indians.

Like some other minorities in this country they are unwilling to join the mainstream population but insist they have their own territories, neighborhoods, culture, etc., etc., etc. When they are willing to admit they are just Americans like those who came from Europe, then maybe the problems of our minorities will be solved. As long as people think of themselves as victims and 2nd class citizens, they will remain exactly that because that is just what they truly want to be.