Amnesty Dead for now!

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

By terrorists, not by the vast majority of illegal immigrants.

According to many posters with first hand knowledge of illegal immigrants, they do forge documents. You’ve been involved in several discussions on this board where pro-immigration posters said that hundreds of thousands of illegal mexicans were using illegal docs and you never bothered to refute them. Why now?

 

[MikeWM]

wabrams:

But let’s not forget the way your countrymen treat Indians: like second class citizens. I’ve met many an Englishman that have commented how we treat the Mexican immigrants, legal or illegal, much better then they treat the Indians.

That may have been true 30 or 40 years ago, I’ve heard stories about how things used to be. But I don’t see any particular discrimination going on towards Indians nowadays. Indeed, they are some of the most successful members of our society, in banking, medicine, and manufacturing.

Mike

 

[wabrams]

MikeWM:

That may have been true 30 or 40 years ago, I’ve heard stories about how things used to be. But I don’t see any particular discrimination going on towards Indians nowadays. Indeed, they are some of the most successful members of our society, in banking, medicine, and manufacturing.

Mike

No, this has been over the last several years I have heard this. But I guess things like that don’t happen in progressive utopias.
Shame on us for not having a better economy and laws to accomidate illegal immigrants.

 

[MikeWM]

MulusChristi:

Not at all. Our economy would be alot healthier without the exploitation which our businesses are perpetrating upon them

Yes, they are exploited and business gets away with paying illegally low wages. I prefer to crack down on the exploiter rather than the exploited; I think they have the greater moral culpability.

Mike, I see you are from the UK and I believe seeing reports that your country is also being overrun by illegals.

Then you are reading the wrong reports. Are you applying to join the UK Conservative party? That was the attitude they took in the last election and it lost them votes. They’ve now softened on immigration considerably.

My only consolation is that, if our US invasion is unchecked I’ll still get to be Catholic. You will be under sharia law.

Utter nonsense. The UK will never be under sharia law. These ‘scares’ have been going on for centuries - and are usually directed against Catholics. You’d think we’d have learnt from the centuries of being discriminated against, not to discriminate against others. Still, it seems not.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

wabrams:

No, this has been over the last several years I have heard this. But I guess things like that don’t happen in progressive utopias.

Go on then, find me a link to a story in a respected publication that details the recent discrimination towards Indians in the UK. I don’t recall reading one. I could find some racist incidents, and a basketfull of anti-immigrant rhetoric, but I don’t see Indians.

I don’t believe I ever said the UK was a utopia. Indeed, recently there has been a disturbing increase in xenophobia and anti-immigrant feeling. I say what ought to be. It doesn’t mean the UK is doing it either.

Shame on us for not having a better economy and laws to accomidate illegal immigrants.

One or the other Either don’t need illegal immigrants, or start treating them with the respect they deserve as an integral part of the economy.

Mike

 

[MulusChristi]

MikeWM:

Then you are reading the wrong reports. Are you applying to join the UK Conservative party? That was the attitude they took in the last election and it lost them votes. They’ve now softened on immigration considerably.
Mike

Greetings Mike,
The reports I saw were on the BBC last summer when I visited London. The debate was over the number of illegals in the country; similar to the debate we have here.

As to the UK conservatives, they seem as hapless as our republicans.

Couldn’t resist the sharia law quip. I agree the UK is better off than the rest of Europe, but the trends do not bode well for you. It amazes me how many Europeans seem to be blind to what is happening to Europe.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

wabrams:

According to many posters with first hand knowledge of illegal immigrants, they do forge documents. You’ve been involved in several discussions on this board where pro-immigration posters said that hundreds of thousands of illegal mexicans were using illegal docs and you never bothered to refute them. Why now?

Because of the context of the statement. Terrorists and most illegal immigrants are two totally difference classes of persons and they must be kept separate in this debate.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

Because of the context of the statement. Terrorists and most illegal immigrants are two totally difference classes of persons and they must be kept separate in this debate.

5 years ago today I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you; but after 9/11 we’ve kept our eyes a little sharper and we are catching people who aren’t Hispanic coming over that border with ties to terrorist orginizations. It would seem they now go hand in hand.

 

[wabrams]

MikeWM:

Go on then, find me a link to a story in a respected publication that details the recent discrimination towards Indians in the UK. I don’t recall reading one. I could find some racist incidents, and a basketfull of anti-immigrant rhetoric, but I don’t see Indians.

I don’t believe I ever said the UK was a utopia. Indeed, recently there has been a disturbing increase in xenophobia and anti-immigrant feeling. I say what ought to be. It doesn’t mean the UK is doing it either.

One or the other Either don’t need illegal immigrants, or start treating them with the respect they deserve as an integral part of the economy.

Mike

I would be more than happy to exercise some google-fu for those articles right after you show me some saying we treat all the immigrants like dirt.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

5 years ago today I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you; but after 9/11 we’ve kept our eyes a little sharper and we are catching people who aren’t Hispanic coming over that border with ties to terrorist orginizations. It would seem they now go hand in hand.

Ah. See that kind of thinking can lead to saying that all illegal immigrants are terrorists…which is ludicrous.

And no one is saying that we don’t need to get a much better handle on our borders. (Emphasis on the ‘s’ because no one talks about the northern border…where a terrorist intending to blow up LAX was caught just before 2000).

The question at hand is what can be **practically and realistically ** done about the 11-12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States right now (those who are not terrorists) and how can we encourage legal immigration (thus discourage illegal immigration) in the future?

Doesn’t it stand to reason that we should find out who is here, where they’re from and keep tabs on that sort of thing? Doesn’t it stand to reason that we need to discourage illegal immigration by providing a realistic and legal means to allow those who want to immigrate and/or work and enforcing laws that are actually enforceable?

That’s what this whole argument is about. Reality must meet ideals.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

Ah. See that kind of thinking can lead to saying that all illegal immigrants are terrorists

Only politicians, dem or rep, with an agenda would do that.

LCMS_No_More:

…which is ludicrous.

Agreed.

LCMS_No_More:

And no one is saying that we don’t need to get a much better handle on our borders. (Emphasis on the ‘s’ because no one talks about the northern border…where a terrorist intending to blow up LAX was caught just before 2000).

Couple of things:

1. We work very closely with the Canadian government regarding terrorism and immigration. The Mexican government could care less. Your example of the LAX bomber is further proof it works.
2. We don’t have thousands of Canadians trying to sneak into this country or living here illegally.

LCMS_No_More:

The question at hand is what can be **practically and realistically **done about the 11-12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States right now (those who are not terrorists) and how can we encourage legal immigration (thus discourage illegal immigration) in the future?

Doesn’t it stand to reason that we should find out who is here, where they’re from and keep tabs on that sort of thing? Doesn’t it stand to reason that we need to discourage illegal immigration by providing a realistic and legal means to allow those who want to immigrate and/or work and enforcing laws that are actually enforceable?

That’s what this whole argument is about. Reality must meet ideals.

The only way you can control immigration is to seal the broder. You cna either leave it like it is (doesn’t work), station thousands of troops 24/7/365 on the broder (too costly), or build a wall. I’d say the wall is the most effective.
After you have a means to secure the border, then you can either do this “amnesty” thing or kick them all out because now they just wouldn’t run right back across the border.

 

[wabrams]

I remember sitting around drinking one night my freshman year of college (97-98) w/ my buddies talking about terrorists hitting the US. We all agreed they would probably detonate a nuke and it would probably come through Mexico. All we knew at the time was that it was a pourous border and had no clue about the immigration problem. 9 years later I think we might not have too far off. If something does happen, a lot of people are going to be fightin’ mad that wall was never built.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

wabrams:

Only politicians, dem or rep, with an agenda would do that.

Dem? Rep?

Imagine that! Politicians with an agenda!

Couple of things:

1. We work very closely with the Canadian government regarding terrorism and immigration. The Mexican government could care less. Your example of the LAX bomber is further proof it works.

Actually, I think Mexico would be willing to work with us if we treated Mexico as an equal partner… They don’t want to be dictated to, though. We gave our national pride, so do they.

1. We don’t have thousands of Canadians trying to sneak into this country or living here illegally.

And not all illegal immigrants “sneak into this country…illegally.” I’ve read, in multiple places, illegal immigrants are those who have entered legally and overstayed their visa…which is what many of the 9-11 hijackers did!

The only way you can control immigration is to seal the broder. You cna either leave it like it is (doesn’t work), station thousands of troops 24/7/365 on the broder (too costly), or build a wall. I’d say the wall is the most effective.

False! Not all illegal immigrants cross the border where it is not authorized to do so, so “sealing the border” won’t cut all illegal immigration. Second, a wall sends a really bad message to the rest of the world and especially Mexico. If we want them to work with us on immigration and terrorism, building a wall says, ‘(something really nasty) you, Mexico, we want nothing to do with you!’

Also, you can’t use troops to enforce law in the United States. To do so would be a violation of posse comatatus. Not only that, troops are not trained to do this kind of work. We need to add border patrol agents along the border to keep vigil on the border as well as high-tech means to keep an eye out in remote areas to augment the human surveillance.

After you have a means to secure the border, then you can either do this “amnesty” thing or kick them all out because now they just wouldn’t run right back across the border.

The comprehensive immigration reform bill is a multi-faceted approach (that’s why it’s called comprehensive). It has increased border security (on both borders), interior enforcement, reform of the immigration system and a means for illegal immigrants to come out of the shadows.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

Actually, I think Mexico would be willing to work with us if we treated Mexico as an equal partner… They don’t want to be dictated to, though. We gave our national pride, so do they.

Mexico is one of the most corrupt industrialized nations in the world. A good chunk of that government is in bed with the drug cartels. The government passes out maps and pamplets for people to come over illegally.

LCMS_No_More:

And not all illegal immigrants “sneak into this country…illegally.” I’ve read, in multiple places, illegal immigrants are those who have entered legally and overstayed their visa…which is what many of the 9-11 hijackers did!

You are absolutely right, but 11 mil. people didn’t come here and overstay their visa.

LCMS_No_More:

False! Not all illegal immigrants cross the border where it is not authorized to do so, so “sealing the border” won’t cut all illegal immigration.

But you create some dandy checkpoints where that is almost the only way they can get into the country.

LCMS_No_More:

Second, a wall sends a really bad message to the rest of the world and especially Mexico. If we want them to work with us on immigration and terrorism, building a wall says, ‘(something really nasty) you, Mexico, we want nothing to do with you!’

Who cares what message it sends? Half the world hates us for supporting Israel, so my should we care if the get ticked off over Mexico? If the Mexican government works with the cartels, what makes you think they want to work with us to stop illiegal immigration?

LCMS_No_More:

Also, you can’t use troops to enforce law in the United States. To do so would be a violation of posse comatatus. Not only that, troops are not trained to do this kind of work. We need to add border patrol agents along the border to keep vigil on the border as well as high-tech means to keep an eye out in remote areas to augment the human surveillance.

You can either use the national guard to circumvate posse comatatus or the president declares martial law in those counties at the border, paving the way to use federal troops.
We do need more border patrol, but without a wall we will need an entire army of federal troops to completely seal the border.
With regards to high tech means, how much more hi-tech can you get than infared red, motion detectors, satellites, etc.?

LCMS_No_More:

The comprehensive immigration reform bill is a multi-faceted approach (that’s why it’s called comprehensive). It has increased border security (on both borders), interior enforcement, reform of the immigration system and a means for illegal immigrants to come out of the shadows.

And now it justs keeps getting watered down by both sides.

 

[rlg94086]

MikeWM:

ASo make your economy work without them. As I said, then the arguments change.

Mike

Mike,

The problem with that demand, is that it requires rounding up all 11 million illegal aliens and deporting them and then replacing them with other workers. There are plenty who want to give that a try. (btw…I’m not one of them - just pointing out the flaw in your statement.)

Peace,

Robert

 

[MikeWM]

rlg94086:

The problem with that demand, is that it requires rounding up all 11 million illegal aliens and deporting them and then replacing them with other workers. There are plenty who want to give that a try. (btw…I’m not one of them - just pointing out the flaw in your statement.)

I think we probably have to differentiate between the people who are already there and people who may be coming in the future. Employers should be cracked down upon very hard for employing illegals, while the illegals already present should be offered a legal route rather like the Seante bill. That way you remove the incentive for more to immigrate illegally, while being fair to the illegals already present. That seems pretty equitable to me.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

MulusChristi:

The reports I saw were on the BBC last summer when I visited London. The debate was over the number of illegals in the country; similar to the debate we have here.

There was such a debate, yes - though only really because there was a general election. There has been a lot of anti-immigrant fever here in the last few years, it comes and goes, stoked by the tabloids and the occasional politician.

As to the UK conservatives, they seem as hapless as our republicans.

Right now, that is a bit of an understatement…

Mike

 

[rlg94086]

Don’t get me wrong, I think we agree on this. I was talking about your comment about making the economy work without them. Those who are for booting them out are willing to give that a try, so your argument would fall flat to them.

I hope all of this political wrangling will result in a good law:

• a stronger border
• better enforcement and penalties on employers
• fines and a process with requirements (e.g. no criminals) for illegal aliens to stay as legal residents.
• guest worker program, if needed. I think if we do the others, it may not be needed.

Robert

MikeWM:

I think we probably have to differentiate between the people who are already there and people who may be coming in the future. Employers should be cracked down upon very hard for employing illegals, while the illegals already present should be offered a legal route rather like the Seante bill. That way you remove the incentive for more to immigrate illegally, while being fair to the illegals already present. That seems pretty equitable to me.

Mike

 

[LCMS_No_More]

rlg94086:

Don’t get me wrong, I think we agree on this. I was talking about your comment about making the economy work without them. Those who are for booting them out are willing to give that a try, so your argument would fall flat to them.

I hope all of this political wrangling will result in a good law:

• a stronger border
• better enforcement and penalties on employers
• fines and a process with requirements (e.g. no criminals) for illegal aliens to stay as legal residents.
• guest worker program, if needed. I think if we do the others, it may not be needed.

Robert

I’m with you here!

 

[gilliam]

rlg94086:

Don’t get me wrong, I think we agree on this. I was talking about your comment about making the economy work without them. Those who are for booting them out are willing to give that a try, so your argument would fall flat to them.

I hope all of this political wrangling will result in a good law:

• a stronger border
• better enforcement and penalties on employers
• fines and a process with requirements (e.g. no criminals) for illegal aliens to stay as legal residents.
• guest worker program, if needed. I think if we do the others, it may not be needed.

Robert

I’ll lay even money it won’t.