Amsterdam Apparition and Mary as the "Co-Redemptrix"

[Writer]

Another way to approach the wider issue of the “Co-Redemptrix” is to say that we can support much of the theology which may appear to stand behind the title–that on which it is based. Rather than the theology which precedes the title, my concern is more centered upon the theology which proceeds from its actual application or use. Having a term in the background, which may be meaningful to some, is one thing, but its proponents by and large seem to want more than this. Although there are other arguments to deal with, I think it is the potential of widespread use or application which would really cause the potential harm to the Christian community. It is like an English idom which is meaningless to the foreigner or the uneducated. You can declare what it is (and is not) all you want, but if the term does not lend itself to simple understanding, then it’s time for a new expression or term to be created which actually makes sense in the English language.

 

[serendipity]

Writer:

Another way to approach the wider issue of the “Co-Redemptrix” is to say that we can support much of the theology which may appear to stand behind the title–that on which it is based. . . .You can declare what it is (and is not) all you want, but if the term does not lend itself to simple understanding, then it’s time for a new expression or term to be created which actually makes sense in the English language.

This is my opinion too. But is my belief that that is the purpose of the magisterium, not to change what we believe, per se, but to change the words used to deine it so that the words best express the concept that the doctrine is suppsoe to define. I think that more work will have to be done on the semantics of this doctrine, in order for it to be better comprehended not only by those who consider themselves Catholic, but alos by the other churches with which we are suppose to be aspiring to unify.

 

[The_Cub]

Writer,

Are you aware that Mary as Co-redemptrix is already Catholic doctrine?

Are you aware of the teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium on the matter?

catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=50

God bless you and your family,

cub

 

[serendipity]

I’m not arguing on the role of mary as represented by the doctrine, but am only saying that more work needs to be done to better articulate. The writing chosen is not clear or effective.

 

[Augustine]

Writer:

To the non-Christian this may all seem like the “splitting hairs” referred to in an earlier post, but I think there are some major problems with the title “Co-Redemptrix”.

I wouldn’t care about either non-Christians or non-Catholics. Many disagree on any title Mary has. Of the other 4 dogmas on her, a few sects don’t agree with the 1st and progressively more disagree with the others in ascending order.

I can’t say that the 5th dogma is due or not, but neither the word or what non-Catholics could think should bear any importance.

It’d be nothing but political correctness in Theology. Thanks, but, no, thanks.

Writer:

The simplest, but perhaps most powerful argument of opposition, centers on issues of language. We can lament the present state of education all we want, but the truth of the matter is that the phrase is inherently confusing and doesn’t succeed in describing or clarifying who Mary truly is.

Perhaps too much importance is being given in this thread to the rendition of a Latin term in English. As most Catholics speak Romance languages, the term has no problems and would be quite suitable for most of the Church.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but the Church is larger than America. I mean no offense nor beligerance. Given that everywhere, but in Western Europe and in N. America, there are more seminarians than ever, the problem is not with the Church, but with the developed world.

 

[Augustine]

serendipity:

I have problems accepting the term co-redemptrix too, and think it was ill conceived becuase it is subject to misinterpretation. People throw out the Timothy verse at the mention of it.

Protestants do just that: protest.

What other verses do they throw at us at the mentioning that Mary is mother of God, or virgin, or immaculately conceived, or assumed to Heaven? Many fume at listening that she’s our Advocate, many more delirate at her mediation. So why compromise the truth on her coredemptive role so as to appease unwilling hearts?

 

[The_Cub]

Serendipity,

This is Dr. Mark Miravalle’s site. He is a special consultant to Pope John Paul II on the declaration of the proposed 5th dogma. It is most detailed and thorough.

voxpopuli.org/

voxpopuli.org/booktext.php

Let’s pray that Our Lady receives this title, this May 31st !!!

We have been told that she will then obtain her full power to crush the head of Satan (Gen. 3:15, Vulgate).

cub

 

[Writer]

Augustine:

I wouldn’t care about either non-Christians or non-Catholics. Many disagree on any title Mary has. Of the other 4 dogmas on her, a few sects don’t agree with the 1st and progressively more disagree with the others in ascending order.

I can’t say that the 5th dogma is due or not, but neither the word or what non-Catholics could think should bear any importance.

It’d be nothing but political correctness in Theology. Thanks, but, no, thanks.

Perhaps too much importance is being given in this thread to the rendition of a Latin term in English. As most Catholics speak Romance languages, the term has no problems and would be quite suitable for most of the Church.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but the Church is larger than America. I mean no offense nor beligerance. Given that everywhere, but in Western Europe and in N. America, there are more seminarians than ever, the problem is not with the Church, but with the developed world.

You might be right on the ecumenical argument if we lived in a diffferent time. If one boils it down to simply an issue of “political correctness”, I’d probably find myself on your side, too. The truth of the matter is, however, that few people have a grasp of the magnitude of destruction the “Culture of Death” is wrecking upon the developed nations of the world, and is up to Christians to stand in unity against this evil. As a a Catholic scholar named Joseph Pearce reminded us in C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, the Evanglical Christians represent our strongest allies on the social wrongs of the day. Why would we allienate them over a term which is essentially meaningless–in terms of language clarity and meaning as well as coming too close to what each of can be called in reference to our own “cooperation” with Christ? To put the Culture of Death reference in better context, here is a short quote from an (as yet unpublished) article of mine entitled “Respice Finem”.

*Perhaps most disturbing of all, his calculations indicate that our nation has lost 114 million Americans due to the drop in domestic fertility rates between 1950 and the year 2000. To put this number in clearer perspective, we might turn to recent US Census figures. In order to arrive at a population figure nearing the 114 million range, we would need to add the total populations of California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Washington State. While it is true that the total United States population has grown from about 123 million in 1930 to an estimated figure approaching 295 million, the key to understanding the nature of the Contagious Infertility Syndrome is that the rate of growth has declined significantly. *

A key component, we believe, of this “Contagious Infertility Syndrome” represents the effects of the Culture of Death–e.g. abortion, birth control, etc.

As much as we’d like to believe that individiualism is the ultimate good, community is always what the Bible encourages us to safeguard and strive for. The Christian community contains everyone from the Catholic Church to the misguided Southern Baptists (who are now going around our neighborhood trying to convert children on their way home from the Catholic school).

 

[Augustine]

Writer:

You might be right on the ecumenical argument if we lived in a diffferent time. If one boils it down to simply an issue of “political correctness”, I’d also be on your side, as well. The truth of the matter is, however, that few people have a grasp of the magnitude of destruction the “Culture of Death” is wrecking upon the world, and is up to Christians to stand in unity against this evil.

I couldn’t agree more with you. However, I think that you’re assuming that the term is not appropriate to them.

Writer:

As a a Catholic scholar named Joseph Pearce reminded us in C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, the Evanglical Christians represent our strongest allies on the social wrongs of the day. Why would we allienate them over a term which is essentially meaningless–in terms of language clarity and meaning as well as coming too close to what each of can be called in reference to our own “cooperation” with Christ?

Because the truth, if indeed this is the case with the 5th dogma, cannot be compromised for the sake of marketing.

We may come from different points of view, but I think that getting this dogma right with Catholics first is much more important than putting it in terms strange to us but warm and fuzzy to Evangelicals.

If the dogma of the Real Presence would be defined today, what you call it other than Flesh and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? These very words make Evangelicals run away, to their loss, yet attract so many Catholics converts…

If anything, we’ll do better promoting unity by being Catholic, not anything else.

 

[serendipity]

Writer:

*Perhaps most disturbing of all, his calculations indicate that our nation has lost 114 million Americans due to the drop in domestic fertility rates between 1950 and the year 2000. To put this number in clearer perspective, we might turn to recent US Census figures. In order to arrive at a population figure nearing the 114 million range, we would need to add the total populations of California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Washington State. While it is true that the total United States population has grown from about 123 million in 1930 to an estimated figure approaching 295 million, the key to understanding the nature of the Contagious Infertility Syndrome is that the rate of growth has declined significantly. *

Why is this disturbing? Fertility rates aren’t the sole source of a country’s rate of natural increase. We are also suppose to consider the inlux of immigrants, which is considerable even inspite of all the legal restrictions that are always being introduced. Many immigrants are from Central America and Catholic. It is kind of self-centered to think that the only way our society and our faith continue is through the children related to us by blood. I also don’t understand the relveance to the thread’s topic.

 

[Augustine]

Writer:

You might be right on the ecumenical argument if we lived in a diffferent time. If one boils it down to simply an issue of “political correctness”, I’d also be on your side, as well. The truth of the matter is, however, that few people have a grasp of the magnitude of destruction the “Culture of Death” is wrecking upon the world, and is up to Christians to stand in unity against this evil.

I couldn’t agree more with you. However, I think that you’re assuming that the term is not appropriate to them.

Writer:

As a a Catholic scholar named Joseph Pearce reminded us in C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, the Evanglical Christians represent our strongest allies on the social wrongs of the day. Why would we allienate them over a term which is essentially meaningless–in terms of language clarity and meaning as well as coming too close to what each of can be called in reference to our own “cooperation” with Christ?

Because the truth, if indeed this is the case with the 5th dogma, cannot be compromised for the sake of marketing.

We may come from different points of view, but I think that getting this dogma right with Catholics first is much more important than putting it in terms strange to us but warm and fuzzy to Evangelicals.

If the dogma of the Real Presence would be defined today, what you call it other than Flesh and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? These very words make Evangelicals run away, to their loss, yet attract so many Catholics converts…

If anything, we’ll do better promoting unity by being Catholic, not anything else.

 

[Augustine]

serendipity:

I also don’t understand the relveance to the thread’s topic.

It is a bit off-topic, but he was trying to make the point that the Culture of Death is a tragedy not in slow motion anymore, thus the urgency to unite with other Christians to promote the Culture of Life.

But perhaps the saddest statistic is that there could be 3 times more blacks in the US had it not been for the legalization of abortion. A genuine genocide!

 

[Writer]

The Cub:

Writer,

Are you aware that Mary as Co-redemptrix is already Catholic doctrine?

Are you aware of the teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium on the matter?

catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=50

God bless you and your family,

cub

Cub:

I am not sure I see your point. You refer to this link, but I find the term “coredemptrix” used only twice–see the 1935 and 1985 references. It is primarily emphasizing her cooperation and the understanding of her as the “New Eve”. If you had read my online essay, you’d know that I am in agreement on both of these issues. I am also not sure that two passing references to the title (over the course of half a century) really change a great deal in our understanding of the term’s shortcomings. As an aside, if the term is greatly important, then why is it not mentioned once in the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, *by writers such as Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas Aquinas, or some of the greatest Catholic writers of the past century such as G.K. Chesterton or even devout fiction-writers such as J.R.R. Tolkien, who wrote some wonderful pieces on the Catholic Church in letters and elsewhere? Why, furthermore, would every Church authority I have contacted–from priests and brothers–agree that “Co-Redemptrix” won’t (and shouldn’t) become the Fifth Dogma?

All I can surmise is that the “Co-Redemptrix” is being pushed primarily by a relatively small group of Catholics, who aren’t content at recognizing her unique and powerful cooperation, but who wish to raise her to either “an inch below the glory of Christ”, or, as I have witnessed in these forums, who declare an equality between the glory of Christ and Mary. This brings the whole problem of the “Lady of all Nations” to the forefront; do we worship the created or the Creator?

(Important edit!)

 

[Writer]

serendipity:

Why is this disturbing? Fertility rates aren’t the sole source of a country’s rate of natural increase. We are also suppose to consider the inlux of immigrants, which is considerable even inspite of all the legal restrictions that are always being introduced. Many immigrants are from Central America and Catholic. It is kind of self-centered to think that the only way our society and our faith continue is through the children related to us by blood. I also don’t understand the relveance to the thread’s topic.

Yes, immigration masks the problem, but this is not a problem simply here in the United States, as you appear to believe. It is also a problem across Europe and Russia. In fact, National Review recently referred to “Islamization of France”.

It is not off-topic, because it is defining the need for ecumenical relations to oppose the “Culture of Death”. I would encourage you to expand your understanding of population trend analysis.

 

[serendipity]

Writer:

It is not off-topic, because it is defining the need for ecumenical relations to oppose the “Culture of Death”. I would encourage you to expand your understanding of population trend analysis.

Yes, but the US has more of an immigration of Catholics than does France. Most of France’s immigrants are from former French colonies where the majority are Muslims. And yes, France now has more Muslims than Protestants. Even though it is a Catholic country, it probably has more active Muslims evangelizing than it does active Catholics, since the Muslims in France face extreme discrimination which perpetuates an enclave mentality. Many think that their plight will be improved only if more people become Muslims in France. The French are so funny because they always point to the racism in the US, but they are hypocrites.

Thank you for the encouragement, but I don’t need to expand my understanding of population trend anlaysis, as it constituted a bulk of my graduate work. Why do so many people on here assume that if some one has a different opinion than they are uneducated in the matter?

What worries me, is that many immigrants form Central America come here as Catholic, but they are increasingly more and more vulnerable to evangelization by the Bible-thumping churches. It use to be rare to see Spanish-speaking Baptist church and other fundamental churches, but now they are everywhere. Have you not noticed this trend too?

 

[Augustine]

serendipity:

What worries me, is that many immigrants form Central America come here as Catholic, but they are increasingly more and more vulnerable to evangelization by the Bible-thumping churches. It use to be rare to see Spanish-speaking Baptist church and other fundamental churches, but now they are everywhere. Have you not noticed this trend too?

Good point. It is one thing that concerns me a lot. Being an immigrant myself, I’ve seen many other immigrants who were lukewarm in the Faith become prey of Evangelicals, whether because they’re maturing or because the distance from the protection of the family makes them more vulnerable.

I volunteered at a new ministry in my parish to reach out to immigrants, but it seems more concerned about stereotypes and in doing nothing in particular to address their spiritual needs that I’ve decided to leave it.

Particularly in a city with a lot of technology companies, the main concern is not English as second language or bus routes. The typical immigrant in town speaks English very well, earns a six-figure income and entered the US legally. Yet, their spiritual needs are not being met by the Church at large. But I digress…

 

[Writer]

Augustine:

Good point. It is one thing that concerns me a lot. Being an immigrant myself, I’ve seen many other immigrants who were lukewarm in the Faith become prey of Evangelicals, whether because they’re maturing or because the distance from the protection of the family makes them more vulnerable.

I volunteered at a new ministry in my parish to reach out to immigrants, but it seems more concerned about stereotypes and in doing nothing in particular to address their spiritual needs that I’ve decided to leave it.

Particularly in a city with a lot of technology companies, the main concern is not English as second language or bus routes. The typical immigrant in town speaks English very well, earns a six-figure income and entered the US legally. Yet, their spiritual needs are not being met by the Church at large. But I digress…

Interesting digression, though… What do you think the Church needs to do to address this shift to the Protestant churches by recent immigrants? (might be a good new thread topic)

 

[serendipity]

Augustine:

Particularly in a city with a lot of technology companies, the main concern is not English as second language or bus routes. The typical immigrant in town speaks English very well, earns a six-figure income and entered the US legally. Yet, their spiritual needs are not being met by the Church at large. But I digress…

Sorry to continue the digression, but the Protestants, particularly the Bible churches are so good at getting to people. First is the simple language; which is easier when their history is so abbreviated - it trips up adults too who speak it as their first languages.

But most of the Bible-thumping churches here too have minivans or full-fledged busses that pick up people to attend their churches. And many offer child care programs for people. even if they are not standard day care facilities, per se, they offer all kinds of after school activities, which they send thier vans out to schools to pick them up and keep them until the parents can get them, or even take them home. I woudl think that this socialization helps the immigrant family (or may families in general) by providing child care, and by keeping kids involved in morally safe environments, and makes them feel part of a group.

Oops…maybe this should be a new thread…I’ll look to see if it has alredy been started.

 

[Augustine]

Writer:

Interesting digression, though… What do you think the Church needs to do to address this shift to the Protestant churches by recent immigrants? (might be a good new thread topic)

Good thought. I’ll be replying at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=39438.

 

[Augustine]

serendipity:

Even if they are not standard day care facilities, per se, they offer all kinds of after school activities, which they send thier vans out to schools to pick them up and keep them until the parents can get them, or even take them home. I woudl think that this socialization helps the immigrant family (or may families in general) by providing child care, and by keeping kids involved in morally safe environments, and makes them feel part of a group.

I replied at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?postid=458836#post458836.