S
spockrates
Guest
Thank you for the answer, Cranster. Your quoting Saint Thomas Aquinas reminds me of something Socrates said:I’m going to refer to a teaching by John Paul 2, and Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.
“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]
A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense, so let us try to understand him.
(Theatetus, 152)
Thus I think it wise for me to try to understand the wisdom of the respected Church Father.
Yes, but we should not let a little thing like that stop us. What have we to lose but our ignorance!This goes somewhat with the concept of time that I mentioned a few posts back. Time according to Einstein can’t be separated from space. He called it spacetime, It’s one substance. If you remove time you also remove space.
Neither heaven or hell exist in spacetime. They exist in eternity. There is literally no space or place in the purely temporal concept of spacetime for God to be in. God is pure spirit. God is simple, which means that He can’t be divided into parts. If God has no parts then God does not occupy space. This doesn’t mean God in not omnipresent. God transcends both space and time, and cannot be contained by either. God is present in space in a purely spiritual way and does not occupy the space in which He’s present. I think it would be more appropriate to think of space as contained within God rather than God contained wit in space. Rather than using the temporal concept of heaven, hell, and purgatory in spacetime it might be more accurate to describe them in statetimeless.
Presence is an inadequate term when talking about God. I think it may be more fitting to use the term communion. Those going to heaven are destined for communion with God. Those condemning themselves to hell through their own free will are deprived of communion with God. So those in the state of hell will be completely deprived of communion with God while God is still omnipresent even though there is no physical space to be present in. Souls in hell are deprived of communion with God in the spiritual place of statetimeless. Bottom line… God can be everywhere, and still not be in communion with souls in hell.
Kinda hard to talk about things beyond human experience. You have to throw out the known and familiar when talking about the spiritual realm.
The question to answer that will cause our ignorance to flee into the darkness from whence it came is this: Do you think Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying eternity is an absence of space-time? or is it possible that eternity transcends space time? To answer that question, please let me ask you this: Do you think that a human body requires space-time to exist in its physical form?