An emptier Hell than most believe?

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I’m going to refer to a teaching by John Paul 2, and Saint Thomas Aquinas.

Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]
Thank you for the answer, Cranster. Your quoting Saint Thomas Aquinas reminds me of something Socrates said:

A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense, so let us try to understand him.

(Theatetus, 152)

Thus I think it wise for me to try to understand the wisdom of the respected Church Father.

👍
This goes somewhat with the concept of time that I mentioned a few posts back. Time according to Einstein can’t be separated from space. He called it spacetime, It’s one substance. If you remove time you also remove space.

Neither heaven or hell exist in spacetime. They exist in eternity. There is literally no space or place in the purely temporal concept of spacetime for God to be in. God is pure spirit. God is simple, which means that He can’t be divided into parts. If God has no parts then God does not occupy space. This doesn’t mean God in not omnipresent. God transcends both space and time, and cannot be contained by either. God is present in space in a purely spiritual way and does not occupy the space in which He’s present. I think it would be more appropriate to think of space as contained within God rather than God contained wit in space. Rather than using the temporal concept of heaven, hell, and purgatory in spacetime it might be more accurate to describe them in statetimeless.

Presence is an inadequate term when talking about God. I think it may be more fitting to use the term communion. Those going to heaven are destined for communion with God. Those condemning themselves to hell through their own free will are deprived of communion with God. So those in the state of hell will be completely deprived of communion with God while God is still omnipresent even though there is no physical space to be present in. Souls in hell are deprived of communion with God in the spiritual place of statetimeless. Bottom line… God can be everywhere, and still not be in communion with souls in hell.

Kinda hard to talk about things beyond human experience. You have to throw out the known and familiar when talking about the spiritual realm.
Yes, but we should not let a little thing like that stop us. What have we to lose but our ignorance!

😃

The question to answer that will cause our ignorance to flee into the darkness from whence it came is this: Do you think Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying eternity is an absence of space-time? or is it possible that eternity transcends space time? To answer that question, please let me ask you this: Do you think that a human body requires space-time to exist in its physical form?
 
I think the argument is that God is in fact 100% loving to every human being created in His image. For those who have cooperated with God and kept His commandments and have therefore grown in holiness while they lived on earth (with holiness being defined as a characteristic unique to God’s character that becomes the goal for human moral character) God’s love brings them just as close to Him as Jesus prayed for in John 17 because they are equipped to receive God’s love. But to those whose characters are ungodly God’s love is necessarily torturous. It’s really an awful thing to contemplate. I have to admit it seems to make sense, though.

When “God’s Justice Demands…” is the assumption used as the starting point I feel prompted to question it rather than accept it. How does one understand the Atonement? Why did Christ have to die on the Cross? If the answer is, “To satisfy God’s justice,” I think I’d request further details about the presuppositions and the subsequent route taken to arrive at that conclusion.

As far as degrees of punishment are concerned, that seems to me to take the dialogue into the “let the punishment fit the crime” arena. And it’s therein that I think I have to be a little cautious about projecting onto God my personal opinions about what fits and what doesn’t fit. Recall the parable of the laborers in the vineyard? The guys who came along last do the least amount of work and yet get the same reward as the guys who’ve been at it slogging out in the sun all day. Obviously the lesson Christ was imparting would sound like nonsense if He had been conducting a seminar on Industrial Relationships. But He wasn’t. He was talking about what the kingdom of heaven is like, as He generally was whenever He spoke in parables.

The Catholic doctrine of mortal sin isn’t one that I (as an Orthodox Christian) believe so the comparison between Hitler and a woman who had an abortion doesn’t raise for me the hampering questions that I think would arise if I were a Catholic.

In conclusion, let me state this. I believe there’s a difference between justice and judgment. Both are God’s prerogative. No question about that. But Saint James, in his general letter to the Church, declares that mercy triumphs over judgment (cf. James 2:13b). He doesn’t say that mercy triumphs over justice. God’s mercy upon the greater – and even the greatest – sinner in no way intrudes upon God’s justice. God’s justice identifies and categorizes the sin as great or greater. But His mercy is even greater still, as He shows when He uses it in His judgment. With that in mind, we can begin to appreciate the danger we put ourselves in when we judge others. In our humanity we can understand judgment only in terms of punishment and condemnation. But God’s ways are not our ways (cf. Isaiah 55:8–9). If we could only judge as God does, we would be so different. We’d never say a bad word about anybody ever again.

In Christ,
Mick
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Time does not permit me to reply as I desire. I look forward to hearing your replies to my other posts and hope to respond to this post soon.

🙂
 
This issue of this thread has been of critical importance to me for the last year, and is the primary reason I am considering leaving the Church, as this issue causes me to be very angry at God.

What kind of God would create us, and then demand that we obey and love him under threat of eternal damnation?

The main issue here for me is not justice, or love, or forgiveness necessarily, but the very fact of creation of a soul without that souls permission so to speak.

God has created each soul, knowing full well the peril he would bring that soul into. Many people go their whole lives oblivious to God’s existence. many others spend their whole lives seeking truth but are unable to find it. Some engage in every kind of evil, knowing this or that God disapproves of their actions, but being unconvinced of the existence of that God, cannot truly regard their actions as evil. Everyone lives as they see fit at every moment in proportion to their level of belief/faith/experience.

Basically, I can not accept that one person uses his or her free will better than another persons. For why does one person choose evil and another good? I find the idea that some people just happen to have some quality in their souls which makes them choose a set of actions more morally in line with natural law, divine law, and reality itself, and that by doing so they acquire merit, as opposed to demerit, thus avoiding hell, absolutely absurd.

perhaps I could believe if God were more self-evident, but the very fact that humans created in his image struggle with his existence or non-existence tells me that God is not self-evident nor morality self-evident enough to merit hell for anybody,

How can God hold us responsible for our own damnation, when it is only God who created the conditions(the creation of anything at all, and our souls in particular), that allowed for the possibility of eternal suffering??

What would resolve this entire issue for me however, is if annihilation was possible. the fact that hell is so bad and eternal is just too much; the fact that the nature of God prevents him from annihilating his good creation, even when he is in hell is too great a tragedy as could be allowed an all loving God.
 
This issue of this thread has been of critical importance to me for the last year, and is the primary reason I am considering leaving the Church, as this issue causes me to be very angry at God.
slywakka250,

I once struggled with this issue just as you are doing now. It caused me immense anxiety; I mean, how could a Good God create souls knowing that they would (much less could) be condemned to eternal Hell?

For me, there are several things that helped me reconcile the two.
  1. For one, I think it shows what enormous importance God places on free will. We are given the solemn dignity to choose for or against Him. But why is free will so important? It is so important because, without it, we cannot enter into the deepest relationship with Him - and thereby experience the deepest joy. Real relationships require assent, and real assent requires a real choice. If the choice were not real and stark, then it would be meaningless - which would defeat assent.
I trust God that his Mercy will save me. I trust God that this gift of life (though I did not choose it) is MORE THAN worth the risk of eternal death (though I did not choose the risk) because of the supreme joy that comes of assenting to God’s invitation to deeper relationship with Himself. I further trust that if anyone IS in Hell then that fate is both just and merciful.
  1. You have assumed that annhilation is superior to Hell. It may be that Hell is superior to annhilation.
  2. Hell is a choice. God’s infinite mercy allows anyone to accept His love and be saved. If Hell is a choice, then it is on the chooser and not on God. Remember, salvation might happen to those outside of the Church through the action of the Church; thus, this is not just some exclusive club to a few believers. Also recall that the duration of Hell (eternity) has more to do with the fact that the spiritual world is outside of space-time than it does with any measure of time as we know it.
  3. God’s ways are not our ways, and our ways are not God’s ways. God’s ways are so high above our ways as are the heavens above the Earth.
Realize that we are limited and blinded and cannot understand what Hell and Heaven really mean beyond what has been revealed to us - the Beatific vision or lacking thereof. God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful at the same time, and I believe that His full justice will be revealed at the end of days. In the meantime we have to trust Him.

Remember when Jesus first talked about what would become the Eucharist? (i.e., telling everyone they would have to eat him to have eternal life?) Many disciples left him because they just couldn’t get it - and it sounded so nasty. Peter’s response was “Lord, you have the words of eternal life, to whom can we turn?” His response was one of trust, even though he was totally confused and it all made no sense - and worse yet seemed wrong and disgusting!

In the same way, we are called to respond with trust and faith in God’s mercy and justice with regard to issues of Heaven and Hell.
  1. Regardless of whether or not we understand or like or agree with God’s decision, it is the TRUTH in the absolute sense that there is a Hell that we can choose. That means, regardless of whether you understand it or like it - or even if you could properly substitute your moral judgement for God’s (GULP!) - this is the way it is in an absolute sense.
If so, then leaving the Church over this issue is like a drafted soldier in war throwing himself in front of a bullet for the sole reason that he thinks that the battle or war is unjust and he’s pissed that his CO sent him into combat. Regardless of his feelings and regardless of the fact that he did not choose the risk, the soldier faces the reality of battle. It makes no sense for the soldier to kill himself by standing up and taking a bullet for no other reason than that he’s angry with the draft board from forcing battle upon him. Likewise, it makes no sense to leave the Church because you do not understand or do not see the justice in God’s ways.
Basically, I can not accept that one person uses his or her free will better than another persons. For why does one person choose evil and another good?
Good question! We don’t know. Remember, again, that we are limited and cannot judge the souls and minds of others. That is why God commands us not to judge others spiritual condition. Only God knows what is people’s hearts. Because God is infinitely merciful, it is possible that a person could commit grave evils his whole life but, through some repentence that only God knows, the person is saved. On the other hand, because God’s justice is infinite, it is possible that a person could commit no grave evils his whole life, but because he rejects God in some sense, the person is damned.

Again, it boils down to trust. Trust in both the mercy and justice of God. Besides, leaving the Church over this issue makes no sense for the reasons given above.
 
slywakka250,
  1. For one, I think it shows what enormous importance God places on free will. We are given the solemn dignity to choose for or against Him. But why is free will so important? It is so important because, without it, we cannot enter into the deepest relationship with Him - and thereby experience the deepest joy. Real relationships require assent, and real assent requires a real choice. If the choice were not real and stark, then it would be meaningless - which would defeat assent.
I understand why free will is important, and the power it is, and this terrifies me.
I trust God that his Mercy will save me. I trust God that this gift of life (though I did not choose it) is MORE THAN worth the risk of eternal death (though I did not choose the risk) because of the supreme joy that comes of assenting to God’s invitation to deeper relationship with Himself. I further trust that if anyone IS in Hell then that fate is both just and merciful.
  1. You have assumed that annhilation is superior to Hell. It may be that Hell is superior to annhilation.
You seem to agree with me that one does not choose to assume the risk of hell. So, I, without knowing the true odds, (i.e. what ratio of humans make it to heaven) no matter how good the beatific vision is, cannot say the risk is worth it because this assumes that the possibility of me having never existed is worse then hell. I know many argue that existence is always better that non-existence and even Satan is good and glorifies God insofar as Satan exists.

But this existential goodness is rather obscure and not satisfying to me. Can you honestly say that the entire time I spend in hell, I would prefer to remain in that state of torment rather than cease to exist, when already here on earth, where there is still hope and much less suffering, still I even now pray to be annihilated?? won’t I want this even more once my torment in hell has begun??
  1. Hell is a choice. God’s infinite mercy allows anyone to accept His love and be saved. If Hell is a choice, then it is on the chooser and not on God. Remember, salvation might happen to those outside of the Church through the action of the Church; thus, this is not just some exclusive club to a few believers. Also recall that the duration of Hell (eternity) has more to do with the fact that the spiritual world is outside of space-time than it does with any measure of time as we know it.
The tradition teaches you must reach an age of reason before you are capable of rejecting God. And why should Providence give infants who die immediately after baptism a free pass out of hell (even if their glory is substantially less, my biggest concern is the distinction between heaven and hell; there is a break point where the lowest seat in heaven is infinitely far from the highest place in hell) . The infants have not had to take the risk that the rest of have had to. This seems incredibly unfair;

The fact that hell is outside space-time I don’t think should do anything to lessen its horror. The scriptures and the teaching of the Church and of the saints is clear. Hell is awful; thinking of its eternity is a good way to appreciate its true terror.
4)…realize that we are limited and blinded and cannot understand what Hell and Heaven really mean beyond what has been revealed to us - the Beatific vision or lacking thereof. God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful at the same time, and I believe that His full justice will be revealed at the end of days. In the meantime we have to trust Him.
  1. Regardless of whether or not we understand or like or agree with God’s decision, it is the TRUTH in the absolute sense that there is a Hell that we can choose. That means, regardless of whether you understand it or like it - or even if you could properly substitute your moral judgement for God’s (GULP!) - this is the way it is in an absolute sense.
I like your point about trusting him. This seems like all that can be done. My faith is weak though, and today is the day of salvation, and the horror that hell threatens me makes me cry and run not to God who has given me such a perilous existence, but to the comforts of this world, in hope that I can grasp my last moments of pleasure as I prepare to face the eternal judgment of the God I know full well I am rejecting just because I don’t like the state of affairs he created, and who this God is.
Good question! We don’t know. Remember, again, that we are limited and cannot judge the souls and minds of others. That is why God commands us not to judge others spiritual condition.
I’m not interested in judging others. What I’m getting at is that it is very curious to me why one person would use his free will in an evil way, and another person use his free will in a good way. I find no explanation or reasons, other than perhaps predestination or divine providence, which would make one person choose one way and another person choose another way. This dynamic of choice with eternal consequence seems groundless
 
This issue of this thread has been of critical importance to me for the last year, and is the primary reason I am considering leaving the Church, as this issue causes me to be very angry at God.

What kind of God would create us, and then demand that we obey and love him under threat of eternal damnation?

The main issue here for me is not justice, or love, or forgiveness necessarily, but the very fact of creation of a soul without that souls permission so to speak.

God has created each soul, knowing full well the peril he would bring that soul into. Many people go their whole lives oblivious to God’s existence. many others spend their whole lives seeking truth but are unable to find it. Some engage in every kind of evil, knowing this or that God disapproves of their actions, but being unconvinced of the existence of that God, cannot truly regard their actions as evil. Everyone lives as they see fit at every moment in proportion to their level of belief/faith/experience.

Basically, I can not accept that one person uses his or her free will better than another persons. For why does one person choose evil and another good? I find the idea that some people just happen to have some quality in their souls which makes them choose a set of actions more morally in line with natural law, divine law, and reality itself, and that by doing so they acquire merit, as opposed to demerit, thus avoiding hell, absolutely absurd.
I understand your frustration and annoyance only too well. The way out of it I found was to focus on what God had in mind for me and to leave aside what I thought He had in mind for others in the hypothetical cases that I continually concocted. I found that trying to take the overview and put myself in God’s place and comparing God’s way of conducting business with what I thought I’d do if I had infinite power was just making me see God as being some kind of celestial tyrant that created people just to hurt them and amuse Himself. They were most depressing thoughts.

I asked myself: How is my life? Have I had any happiness? Has it all been misery and discontent? And my truthful answer was that I’d had my share of pain and suffering but it wasn’t nearly as bad as some I knew. And although I’d had some good times I knew people who’d had much better experiences and much greater successes. So it turned out that I was (possibly) Mr. Average. And even if that wasn’t so I was certain that I was nothing special.

However, I’ve never figured out why God created the world or why he created you or me or anybody else. It doesn’t make any sense. He doesn’t need anything or anybody outside of Himself – so why the extra baggage? And why bother to create us all in the first place knowing that He’d eventually have to go through all the pain and suffering of the crucifixion? God sure works in mysterious ways.

But where else was there to go? These questions – to which there evidently is no answer this side of eternity – weren’t going to dissipate even if I tried to extricate myself from the spiritual side of my nature. I was stuck with it. So the annoying lesson I’ve had to learn is that I have to fit in with God’s agenda because He simply won’t fit in with any of my plans or ideas.

How has God been to you? Has your life been, say 50/50, as I’ve categorized mine or has your life experience been much worse than mine? If you first focus on how God has treated you and settle that with Him perhaps the question of how much information you need about His overall plan and purpose will seem less relevant? It seems to have worked for me, at least. Now, when I don’t know, I just say so. That used to bother me because I was minus the details. But not now. I just don’t need to nail down all those details any more. They are of interest, sure, and I quite like discussing them but they aren’t of vital importance to me.

I now pray this prayer as part of my prayer rule:

LORD God, My Father and King, I thank Thee that Thou hast created me, have preserved me, have called me to the true faith, and in the true faith have provided and continue to provide me with all means for salvation. Would I find the joy of life if Thou hadst not created me? Would I be alive now if Thou hadst not preserved my life? What would have happened to me if Thou hadst not redeemed me? How miserable would I be if Thou hadst not brought me into the true faith and not provided me thus with all the means of salvation? I thank Thee with all my soul, All–Good and All–Merciful One.

Sorry about the olde English. I use it whenever I can as it helps me to distance myself from the “God and me’s buddies” mindset that I imbibed when I was an Evangelical and which doesn’t fit in with icons and a lighted candle in a prayer corner. But prayer is definitely the only answer, I’d say, given the tough spot you’re apparently in just now. You simply can’t think your way out of the conundrum – it has to be an appeal to God Himself for help. If you feel God has treated you reasonably – or, at least, not unreasonably – try praying that prayer. Just say the words at first and maybe your heart will follow?

It’s the best I can do. God be with you.

Sympathetically,
Mick
👍
 
I understand why free will is important, and the power it is, and this terrifies me.
I understand; really I do. Been there, done that - even to this day I worry about it sometimes. In fact, even St. Paul was “working out my salvation with fear and trembling.” I’m not sure if that’s a direct quote from scripture, but it’s close. If one of the mightiest apostles who ever lived worked out salvation with fear and trembling, and yet went to Heaven, then we should not expect any less tribulation.

I think the key is not to focus on ourselves, or rather not to focus on what we need to do to inherit salvation. The key is that Jesus has already done the heavy lifting for us, so the focus should be on Him - on trusting Him. As for the rest we need to do our best to do what Christ commanded, repent and go to confession when we don’t, and constantly invite the Holy Spirit to increase our personal relationship with Jesus.
You seem to agree with me that one does not choose to assume the risk of hell. …
But this existential goodness is rather obscure and not satisfying to me…
I do agree one did not choose the risk of Hell or the benefit of creation. I do not necessarily come to the same conclusion. For me, recognition of three facts is important.
  1. Trust. God can handle it, and He seems to require it. That makes sense to me; we have to conform ourselves to Him, not the other way around. As he is infinite, all powerful, all knowing, and unchanging - and we are limited and changeable, anything not in conformance with Him must be excluded from Him or destroyed.
  2. Mercy. Worrying about God’s judgement tends to focus on his Justice at the expense of His mercy. The are both infinite. If so, then you may rely on His mercy to save you. I strongly urge you read up on the life of St. Faustina ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/stfaust.htm. She did have visions of Hell - but the critical aspect of Divine Mercy is just how vast it is; she described it as being revealed as an ocean.
  3. Why would Jesus incarnate Himself and suffer torture and death to redeem us if he didn’t love us THAT much??? Surely that shows us how much He wants to save us. We should rely on the fact that he WANTS to save us!
… The infants have not had to take the risk that the rest of have had to. This seems incredibly unfair;
Jesus told a parable about this - remember the one where the workers came at the end of the day but received a full day’s wage anyway? Thus, this is just and good and right and fair.

Also, remember there are multiple experiences of the Beatific vision, just as there are multiple levels of Hell. Those who have had the harder choices enter more deeply into Christ, and therefore experience more Joy. Think of how much more Joyful Mother Theresa’s life must be relative to someone who just eked in and will be in purgatory until the last day! An infant never learned to chose and assent, and thus MIGHT not experience the same joy we can because there was no assent to the relationship. This is my speculation only, but is merely an example to show that even with our limited minds God’s fairness will win out in the end.
The fact that hell is outside space-time I don’t think should do anything to lessen its horror. The scriptures and the teaching of the Church and of the saints is clear. Hell is awful; thinking of its eternity is a good way to appreciate its true terror
Agreed. The visions of St. John Bosco of Hell really scared the **** out of me. :eek: Again, the focus should not be on that, but on 1) trust in God’s mercy and 2) our relationship with the Lord.
like your point about trusting him. This seems like all that can be done. My faith is weak though, and today is the day of salvation, and the horror that hell threatens me makes me cry and run not to God who has given me such a perilous existence, but to the comforts of this world, in hope that I can grasp my last moments of pleasure as I prepare to face the eternal judgment of the God I know full well I am rejecting just because I don’t like the state of affairs he created, and who this God is.
YES! (to your first statement) Trust is where it is at. If your faith is weak, then pray to God in the name of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit to increase it. Jesus will grant this request, because He promised He would. Maybe not today, or now, but He WILL in His own perfect time. I can attest to it. In the meantime, I* strongly urge you again to take up the Chaplet of Divine Mercy*. ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm Say this every day and you will find peace in your heart and the fear will go away! Remember what the Pope says all the time, “do not be afraid!”
What I’m getting at is that it is very curious to me why one person would use his free will in an evil way, and another person use his free will in a good way. I find no explanation or reasons, other than perhaps predestination or divine providence, which would make one person choose one way and another person choose another way. This dynamic of choice with eternal consequence seems groundless
I have also really struggled hard with this mystery - as have the greatest philosophers of all time. In the end, I think that we simply have to Trust in God’s love - just as when we were toddlers we simply had to trust in our parent’s care. However, unlike our Human parents who can fail, God will always keep his promises and love us (Isaiah: “even if a mother forgets the child within her womb, I will not forsake you!”)

The hardest thing for me to accept over the years is that there are some things that are simply unknowable by me. 🙂
 
The question to answer that will cause our ignorance to flee into the darkness from whence it came is this: Do you think Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying eternity is an absence of space-time? or is it possible that eternity transcends space time? To answer that question, please let me ask you this: Do you think that a human body requires space-time to exist in its physical form?
Yes, the human body needs space time to exist in its physical form.

At the last judgement when our bodies are resurrected they will be spiritualized and proper for the spiritual place-state of either heaven or hell. When Jesus resurrected from the dead, He physically resurrected from the dead, but His physical body was spiritualized, and was no longer bound by the restrictions of the physical universe. He could walk through walls and move instantaneously anywhere He wished. He could be touched like when Thomas put his fingers into His wounds. Curiously though outside of that encounter with Thomas He asked no to be touched. He could eat, and was able to handle the physical objects necessary to make fire like He did when He cooked fish, and bread on the shore of the lake. People didn’t recognize Him until He chose to be recognized.

I think that a resurrected physical body that becomes spiritualized exists in a hyper reality that contain higher dimensions than the three of the physical universe. None of which require time or space as we can know it or can understand it. This feels like a person in a two dimensional universe looking for depth, and having a sense of what it is, but impossibly trying to grasp at where it is.

On a side note I think the strange elements of instantaneous travel, not wanting to be touched, and the non recognition motif after the resurrection lend a tremendous weight to the actuality of the resurrection itself. 1st century Jewish understanding of resurrection was that a resurrected body would shine as bright as the sun. If you were going to concoct a fable in which God came to earth, died, and was resurrected then it would make much more sense to have the resurrection happen within the parameters of current understanding.
 
Yes so true. To start a point ,then load it up with trick words like ‘well they did have love and charity etc’ is nonsense! The greatest gift our Creator gave us is free will! We are free to save or destroy our souls at will!!! How many public buildings,libraries,museums etc are named after some rich dude,you have seen them all over the place…and just where did this money come from to build this monument to these robber barons…while they stole from the poor to give to the rich yet they are praised as ‘giving’ and ‘charitable’!!! It is soooo pc to be evil in this the devils world! See how the ads are getting,more and more outrageous in their sexual under and over tones. The flicks attack goodness and then are rewarded with prizes while millions of the lemmings flock to pay and see these brainwashing and dulling nails in the body of Jesus and Truth. In the sit com…Cheers…all of the main characters are sinners except one…the one called ‘Coach’ who in the middle of the second season died in real life.He it was who had a real heart and sensitivity. But to counter this Christian behavior it was ‘played into various segments’ that Coach never could hit in minor league ball so to get on base would deliberately allow himself to be hit by the baseball in the head…in the head!!! This then worked on the viewers mind that one who is kind and sensitive is not in his right head you see…our rulers consider us no wiser then Pavlovs mutts…bow wow…the greatest most courageous Pope of the 20th century was PiusX11 and finally as the papers are released it will so be revealed…the Deputy etc not withstanding. all the best…Pas
 
My my, doesn’t it just shiver my little feet in my little booties, All that thoughts of hell and all that. My how Christ just gave so little respect to the devil, didn’t he? Looks like you all are just like him in your giving so little respect the little guy as well, doesn’t it? Oh, but don’t you big bad Nazi’s make those who go to hell like you make dolly’s for you little children? If you want someone to go to hell, you just make them to be judged accordingly when they are too young to do anything about it. That is what they did to me? Don’t you do that to your children as well? At least those good Christians who would sell their little children to hell by driving them insane. Right?

Lucky for all the non-damned that it is rather uncommon to be driven to the destruction of hell. It is right and good for the devil to be damned, but not you. I know that hypocricy is a no no for Christians, but goodness gracious, one would be better an evil hypocrite than a crazy little hell bound loser, now would it? I would be sure you would all agree with that, wouldn’t you all? After all, Christ made the world as it is. All the meanness in the world is because of Christ. If you don’t believe me, just ask the Furer. Or at least T.J. Johnson. Right?

Aren’t you though a bunch of real meanies. How many of you would actually offer the devil something real and meaningful beyond something useless as “have a nice day”? Any one of you? Oh, but hypocrites aren’t hypocrites are they? Oh, but look at the devil seeking a new life just like it was colonial times and he just left the oppression of Europe. My doesn’t he just do things like that? I would just think that the big bad old greed that Christ has brought to this world by the changing of the “guard” as it were, made him do such a nasty thing as to leave the comforts of his very comfortable home to seek a better life, don’t you think?. All those horrible ugly nasty Nazi’s making life so happy for the little devil? My, I hope all your greed doesn’t make you lose control of him. I would be well assured that only those poor crazy people in hell that the world has comdemned because it felt like doing so would like that. Howvever I would not think that most of you would like that very much at all. I hope though, you will tell me before I end this if I am wrong. God knows you need to tell the devil of your power over him in the end, don’t you? I know for one, I would hate for you all to lose that ability.
 
I also have heard of the vision Our Lady showed the children of Fatima and it is indeed a very sad thought. I also think that God alone knows the answer to the question, and I think of it each time I see a snow shower.
Jesus also showed St Faustina a vision of hell and she recorded in ther diary that she noticed that hell was very full of souls who did not believe in hell.
St Faustina also spoke all the time of the unfathomable Mercy of Jesus, for those who come to Him with complete trust. We have just had Divine Mercy Sunday as was the mission of St. Faustina to spread through the world.
St Faustina who lived in very bad health, did more and more sacrifices for souls to turn to the Mercy of Jesus.
Souls need to receive confession and get rid of the mortal sins and turn to Jesus for Mercy with all their hearts and souls.

A lovely prayer for souls, all souls and those most in need, and can be said anywhere all day long is
Jesus and Mary I love you - please save souls.
There is no prayer that Jesus does not hear.

The 3.p.m. prayer for conversation of a soul said with complete trust in the Divine Mercy of Jesus is" O Blood and Water which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a font of Mercy for us I trust in You"

I think we need to pray and pray for those living to turn to Jesus. We cannot do anything for the poor souls in hell.

God Bless 🙂
 
This issue of this thread has been of critical importance to me for the last year, and is the primary reason I am considering leaving the Church, as this issue causes me to be very angry at God.

What kind of God would create us, and then demand that we obey and love him under threat of eternal damnation?

The main issue here for me is not justice, or love, or forgiveness necessarily, but the very fact of creation of a soul without that souls permission so to speak.

Basically, I can not accept that one person uses his or her free will better than another persons. For why does one person choose evil and another good? I find the idea that some people just happen to have some quality in their souls which makes them choose a set of actions more morally in line with natural law, divine law, and reality itself, and that by doing so they acquire merit, as opposed to demerit, thus avoiding hell, absolutely absurd.

How can God hold us responsible for our own damnation, when it is only God who created the conditions(the creation of anything at all, and our souls in particular), that allowed for the possibility of eternal suffering??

What would resolve this entire issue for me however, is if annihilation was possible. the fact that hell is so bad and eternal is just too much; the fact that the nature of God prevents him from annihilating his good creation, even when he is in hell is too great a tragedy as could be allowed an all loving God.
I have snipped out parts of this quote as I thought they led up to the points made in the parts I left - so forgive me if I cut out something crucial.

re some people using their free will better than others - and the absurdity of it all - we see people using their gifts differently every day. People that can run really fast; some will join the track team, some won’t. People that can sing really well; some will audition for American Idol, some will sing in the choir, some will sing in the shower.

Free will is a gift, it is not surprising to me that people will use their gifts differently.

re God holding us responsible for our own damnation - this is truly the crux of your question, I think. It stems from a representation of damnation being something that you merit. The kind of thing I think most people envision is where you stand there and St. Peter has a scale and all your good deeds are piled on one side, all your bad on the other, and then some kind of weighing or measuring takes place and zoom - off to heaven or hell.

I have come to the somewhat frightening conclusion, based on my understanding of salvation, that merit has nothing to do with it at all. For basically, none can merit salvation - it too is a gift. The repercussions of this line of thinking, for me, was that at the end of time, what we call judgment is simply God’s official recognition of the decision that we made in life. We either turn to God, as best we can given our circumstances, or we turn away. Our decision - it matters not if you are pygmy in Africa with no knowledge of The Bible, or if you are the Pope, you work with what you got, and you turn toward or away. That act of free will is officially recognized at the end of time.
fb
 
Yes, the human body needs space time to exist in its physical form.

At the last judgement when our bodies are resurrected they will be spiritualized and proper for the spiritual place-state of either heaven or hell. When Jesus resurrected from the dead, He physically resurrected from the dead, but His physical body was spiritualized, and was no longer bound by the restrictions of the physical universe. He could walk through walls and move instantaneously anywhere He wished. He could be touched like when Thomas put his fingers into His wounds. Curiously though outside of that encounter with Thomas He asked no to be touched. He could eat, and was able to handle the physical objects necessary to make fire like He did when He cooked fish, and bread on the shore of the lake. People didn’t recognize Him until He chose to be recognized.

I think that a resurrected physical body that becomes spiritualized exists in a hyper reality that contain higher dimensions than the three of the physical universe. None of which require time or space as we can know it or can understand it. This feels like a person in a two dimensional universe looking for depth, and having a sense of what it is, but impossibly trying to grasp at where it is.

On a side note I think the strange elements of instantaneous travel, not wanting to be touched, and the non recognition motif after the resurrection lend a tremendous weight to the actuality of the resurrection itself. 1st century Jewish understanding of resurrection was that a resurrected body would shine as bright as the sun. If you were going to concoct a fable in which God came to earth, died, and was resurrected then it would make much more sense to have the resurrection happen within the parameters of current understanding.
I apprehend what you are saying, Cranster and am familiar with the passages of the New Testament used to support the idea that Jesus’ resurrected body, at least at times, has no physical matter to it. Years ago, I spent more than a year having regular conversations with Jehovah’s Witnesses in my home. Their team leader Nelsa used to bring a new recruit by each time to show them how to debate a Bible-thumper like myself (yes, to my shame, I used to win a lot of arguments, but won few souls to Christ). She used the passages you mentioned and similar reasoning–although her purpose is not to prove that Jesus can remove matter from His essence and recreate the matter of His essence at will. Instead, she used the passages as proof text to show that Jesus is not the unique and eternal God-man, but is the Michael the Arch Angel. Some of her proof texts:

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

(Luke 24:36)

and

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ "

(John 20:17)

and

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

(1 Corinthians 15)

Regarding the first passage, she reasoned that Jesus could walk through walls, and so He must have the body of an angel, not a physical body like you and me. My response was that she was making an argument from ignorance. Luke writes that Jesus “stood among them” but not that He walked through walls. He might have teleported or made Himself invisible, but still have been physical.

Regarding the second passage she reasoned that Jesus told the woman to not touch Him because he was an angel, in non-physical form and could not be touched. I answered that she was not paying attention to the words Jesus used. For Jesus did not say to not touch Him. Instead He said to not hold on to Him. In other words, He was saying that she should not try to keep Him with her on earth, for He had to return to Heaven.

Regarding the third passage, she reasoned that

spiritual body = spirit (or non-physical) body

My response was that she was making another argument from ignorance. For nowhere does Saint Paul indicate that a spiritual body is a non-physical body. All he says–and all we can know from what he says–is that a spiritual body is a non-perishable, glorious and powerful one. I then mentioned this passage:

37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

(Luke 24)

and asked why, if Jesus had a non-physical body, did He go out of His way to show that His body has flesh and bones?

Her response was that they would not have believed Jesus really rose from the dead if Jehovah God had not temporarily given Him flesh and bones.

I then said that this sounds deceptive to me, and asked why, if Jesus had the body of an angel, did He not ever say He had the body of an angel? She had no answer for that one.

I mention all this to you, Cranster only to spare you and I several posts of debating whether Jesus’ body is always made of physical matter, or merely sometimes made of physical matter. Would you be content to say that we cannot know either way unless we find some official Church doctrine that resolves the matter of Jesus’ mysterious matter for us?

🙂
 
Cranster:

For the sake of discussion, I’m willing to compromise by saying it is possible–though not yet certain to me–that there is no physical matter in Heaven. Will you then be willing, for the sake of discussion, to compromise by saying it is possible that there is something like time–but something that is also so much more than time–in eternity?

If not, can you explain how existence is possible without time? My thought is that eternity is a kind of perfected time, rather than a complete absence of it. For example, one might be able to move at the speed of thought and perhaps even travel through time–to the past and to the future–at will in eternity. Would that not be a kind of supernatural and eternal time rather than no time at all?
 
Very Nice. I’m with you on this one.

Hebrews 9:27 states something like, “it is appointed for man to die once, and after this comes judgement.” Many confuse the word JUDGEMENT with SENTENCING.

The verse doesn’t say it is appointed for man to die once, and after this comes SENTENCING. No it says we are judged. What will I do during my judgement? I’m going to throw myself upon the mercy of the court! Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me, a sinner! Now, as a Christian, I believe I’ll receive additional blessing and reward in heaven for my belief in the unseen Jesus, here on earth.

But there are those, like Thomas (on earth), who will not believe until they see Jesus, corporeally, in heaven. At that judgement time, I believe the vast majority will throw themselves upon the mercy of Jesus, and after their cleansing in Purgatory, will spend eternity in heaven. Unfortunately, upon their judgement, there are those who would rather spit in his face and spend eternity with themselves in Hell. I pray (and suspect) they are very few in number.

God bless.
 
My my, doesn’t it just shiver my little feet in my little booties, All that thoughts of hell and all that. My how Christ just gave so little respect to the devil, didn’t he? Looks like you all are just like him in your giving so little respect the little guy as well, doesn’t it? Oh, but don’t you big bad Nazi’s make those who go to hell like you make dolly’s for you little children? If you want someone to go to hell, you just make them to be judged accordingly when they are too young to do anything about it. That is what they did to me? Don’t you do that to your children as well? At least those good Christians who would sell their little children to hell by driving them insane. Right?
Lucky for all the non-damned that it is rather uncommon to be driven to the destruction of hell. It is right and good for the devil to be damned, but not you. I know that hypocricy is a no no for Christians, but goodness gracious, one would be better an evil hypocrite than a crazy little hell bound loser, now would it? I would be sure you would all agree with that, wouldn’t you all? After all, Christ made the world as it is. All the meanness in the world is because of Christ. If you don’t believe me, just ask the Furer. Or at least T.J. Johnson. Right?
Aren’t you though a bunch of real meanies. How many of you would actually offer the devil something real and meaningful beyond something useless as “have a nice day”? Any one of you? Oh, but hypocrites aren’t hypocrites are they? Oh, but look at the devil seeking a new life just like it was colonial times and he just left the oppression of Europe. My doesn’t he just do things like that? I would just think that the big bad old greed that Christ has brought to this world by the changing of the “guard” as it were, made him do such a nasty thing as to leave the comforts of his very comfortable home to seek a better life, don’t you think?. All those horrible ugly nasty Nazi’s making life so happy for the little devil? My, I hope all your greed doesn’t make you lose control of him. I would be well assured that only those poor crazy people in hell that the world has comdemned because it felt like doing so would like that. Howvever I would not think that most of you would like that very much at all. I hope though, you will tell me before I end this if I am wrong. God knows you need to tell the devil of your power over him in the end, don’t you? I know for one, I would hate for you all to lose that ability.
Huh?:confused:
 
I have snipped out parts of this quote as I thought they led up to the points made in the parts I left - so forgive me if I cut out something crucial.

re some people using their free will better than others - and the absurdity of it all - we see people using their gifts differently every day. People that can run really fast; some will join the track team, some won’t. People that can sing really well; some will audition for American Idol, some will sing in the choir, some will sing in the shower.

Free will is a gift, it is not surprising to me that people will use their gifts differently.

**Ah, but can you identify the condition or the quality or the state of one’s soul which predisposes that soul to make a good action as opposed to an evil action??

I’m not talking about someone doing a good action because they know it will please God, or a good action because it feels good, or an evil action because it is expedient, or an evil action because it feels right, but I’m talking about something more foundational then these considerations.

For hopefully God created every person or at least the majority of persons with an EQUAL capacity** to avoid hell. I consider this *capacity *some collection of powers in the soul; basically God has given us the power to avoid hell. (this power will consist in doing whatever God asks of each individual, as it may be different from each, but to make the final judgement on a particular person, there MUST be something that the individual does of his own free will to accept or reject God, be it some sort of act of charity, faith, or good work)

This means we have the ability to avoid hell, and the ability to go to hell if we so choose. Now, supposedly all people are made for heaven, and God calls ALL people to heaven. This means that using this unique ability which we all have to choose hell, is a *failure *of our hell avoiding power in our soul, given my God, to function correctly.

Now, I get back to my question of why some choose evil and others good. In Those who choose evil, the capacity of their souls to avoid hell is not functioning properly, and in those who choose good the capacity in their souls to avoid hell is functioning properly. Now, how can this be fair, that in some people God gift of hell-avoidance capacity functions properly, and consequently the people go on to do good (heaven), and in others the hell-avoidance capacity functions poorly, and consequently the people go on to do evil (hell)? After all, God should given this power equally to everyone, so if the power is not sufficient to save everyone, it seems rather random who gets saved, in a sense we have no control over the matter, even though we seem to in that we have free will;

e God holding us responsible for our own damnation - this is truly the crux of your question, I think. It stems from a representation of damnation being something that you merit. The kind of thing I think most people envision is where you stand there and St. Peter has a scale and all your good deeds are piled on one side, all your bad on the other, and then some kind of weighing or measuring takes place and zoom - off to heaven or hell.

I have come to the somewhat frightening conclusion, based on my understanding of salvation, that merit has nothing to do with it at all. For basically, none can merit salvation - it too is a gift. The repercussions of this line of thinking, for me, was that at the end of time, what we call judgment is simply God’s official recognition of the decision that we made in life. We either turn to God, as best we can given our circumstances, or we turn away. Our decision - it matters not if you are pygmy in Africa with no knowledge of The Bible, or if you are the Pope, you work with what you got, and you turn toward or away. That act of free will is officially recognized at the end of time.
fb
How does merit have nothing to do with it, with what you describe? You say it yourself, “you turn toward or away” you say. This turning is the act of merit, and this turning toward or away, what ever circumstances it took place in, be it those of pygmy in Africa or the Pope, will be what is on the scale. so I don’t see your point here.
 
SSTeacher;6543028 said:
…I think I’d be unable to describe what love is if I were unable to give examples of what love does. We can perhaps agree (for the purposes of dialogue, anyway) that they are similar.
Perhaps, but I have my doubts at the moment. Please let me ask you this: If I were to ask you, “What is color?” and you were to answer, “Red,” and someone else were to answer, “White,” and yet another were to answer, “Color is Blue,” would any of you have answered my question?

🤷

Yes – but we’d all have failed the This is Jeopardy! test because there’s no category to link our answers to the question.
SSTeacher;6543028:
I think it can reasonably be inferred from Saint Paul’s description of what love is/does that love is forgiving since He declares that it keeps no record of wrongs
. And according to the Psalmist, so great is God’s love for those who fear Him that “as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.” Same idea. The proviso that the Psalmist adduces shouldn’t be overlooked, of course, but it’s perhaps permissible to suggest that God’s love also includes God’s forgiveness. Incidentally, don’t you think it’s interesting that the Psalmist chooses to declare “from east to west” and not “from north to south”?Yes, I like the thought of that! and I have no doubt that all forgiveness is love, but is all love forgiveness? Tell me, Teacher, does God the Father love God the Son?

🤷
I believe so.
SSTeacher;6543028:
I don’t know if I can get away with suggesting that God’s love also includes God’s mercy. I’ll certainly try, though. Remember the parable of the unmerciful servant?

Noting that this parable includes both the concepts of mercy and
forgiveness and appears to treat them as synonymous there seems now to be good reason to think that love in action includes being merciful and being forgiving. So, yes, I can agree with you that the way we most want God to love us is to show mercy to us and forgive us. In fact, I might even infer that God will love us in the same way that He is telling us to love. I want to be cautious here, of course, as it’s but an inference.Yes, you might be on to something there! It is certainly true that we are to love as God loves us.

👍

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

(John 13:34-35)

And it seems that if you or I refuse to show the specific love called forgiving, God will not forgive us.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

(Luke 6:37)

Although, much needs to be investigated to be certain of the meaning of His words.

🙂
Fair enough.
SSTeacher;6543028 said:
…I don’t think it’s Catholic dogma but I’ll allow myself to be corrected by any Catholic that cares to interpolate. I’ve found an Orthodox source for the idea that I had in mind, though. It’s lengthy and certainly polemical, passim. Still, never mind, eh? 🙂 Click here
Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:It’s certainly worth considering, and it is one currently being carefully considered in another discussion thread here at the forum. If you are interested, see post 151 at this link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6535533#post6535533

Reading this stuff reminds of the fun I used to have with religionists before I became a Christian. I once had a Jehovah’s Witness practically explaining to me how God’s mind worked! The acceptance of mystery is (for me) one of the many attractions of Holy Orthodoxy. Incidentally, in case you didn’t realize it, it’s possible to isolate posts and link to them by clicking on the post number, scil:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6533589&postcount=151

It cuts out the ads, too.
But the idea has its thoughtful critics. Cranster, in this discussion thread, is one. Baptists and Evangelicals of my past are others, for they told me that God is a loving God, but He is also a just God, and His justice demands that His love ends where the Gates of Hell begin.
The Evangelicals told me the same thing so at least they’re consistent. 🙂

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
My my, doesn’t it just shiver my little feet in my little booties, All that thoughts of hell and all that. My how Christ just gave so little respect to the devil, didn’t he? Looks like you all are just like him in your giving so little respect the little guy as well, doesn’t it? Oh, but don’t you big bad Nazi’s make those who go to hell like you make dolly’s for you little children? If you want someone to go to hell, you just make them to be judged accordingly when they are too young to do anything about it. That is what they did to me? Don’t you do that to your children as well? At least those good Christians who would sell their little children to hell by driving them insane. Right?

Lucky for all the non-damned that it is rather uncommon to be driven to the destruction of hell. It is right and good for the devil to be damned, but not you. I know that hypocricy is a no no for Christians, but goodness gracious, one would be better an evil hypocrite than a crazy little hell bound loser, now would it? I would be sure you would all agree with that, wouldn’t you all? After all, Christ made the world as it is. All the meanness in the world is because of Christ. If you don’t believe me, just ask the Furer. Or at least T.J. Johnson. Right?

Aren’t you though a bunch of real meanies. How many of you would actually offer the devil something real and meaningful beyond something useless as “have a nice day”? Any one of you? Oh, but hypocrites aren’t hypocrites are they? Oh, but look at the devil seeking a new life just like it was colonial times and he just left the oppression of Europe. My doesn’t he just do things like that? I would just think that the big bad old greed that Christ has brought to this world by the changing of the “guard” as it were, made him do such a nasty thing as to leave the comforts of his very comfortable home to seek a better life, don’t you think?. All those horrible ugly nasty Nazi’s making life so happy for the little devil? My, I hope all your greed doesn’t make you lose control of him. I would be well assured that only those poor crazy people in hell that the world has comdemned because it felt like doing so would like that. Howvever I would not think that most of you would like that very much at all. I hope though, you will tell me before I end this if I am wrong. God knows you need to tell the devil of your power over him in the end, don’t you? I know for one, I would hate for you all to lose that ability.
English is indeed my first language but what the david is the above post meant to convey? :hypno:

Bewilderedly,
Mick
👍
 
How does merit have nothing to do with it, with what you describe? You say it yourself, “you turn toward or away” you say. This turning is the act of merit, and this turning toward or away, what ever circumstances it took place in, be it those of pygmy in Africa or the Pope, will be what is on the scale. so I don’t see your point here.
Above what I have quoted there, you say
Ah, but can you identify the condition or the quality or the state of one’s soul which predisposes that soul to make a good action as opposed to an evil action??
I’m not talking about someone doing a good action because they know it will please God, or a good action because it feels good, or an evil action because it is expedient, or an evil action because it feels right, but I’m talking about something more foundational then these considerations.
First - your term “predispose” - sounds like you have a more deterministic view of things than a pure free will view. In an attempt to answer that question, I would say that all people may in fact be born predisposed toward God, but, it is a fact that people make choices that others would view as wrong. To bring it down to earth, some people make decisions that send them to jail, others don’t. It sounds to me that you believe people are predestined to go to jail; if that is the case we really don’t have any common ground to continue any kind of productive conversation. We’d have to spend a lot of time first on the concepts of free will vs determinism.

Second - I am curious what you are referring to when you say you are talking about something more foundational.
For hopefully God created every person or at least the majority of persons with an EQUAL capacity to avoid hell. I consider this capacity some collection of powers in the soul; basically God has given us the power to avoid hell. (this power will consist in doing whatever God asks of each individual, as it may be different from each, but to make the final judgement on a particular person, there MUST be something that the individual does of his own free will to accept or reject God, be it some sort of act of charity, faith, or good work)
I consider this capacity to be free will. Yes there must be something the the individual does of his own free will to accept or reject God - they make a decision. They exercise their free will.
This means we have the ability to avoid hell, and the ability to go to hell if we so choose. Now, supposedly all people are made for heaven, and God calls ALL people to heaven. This means that using this unique ability which we all have to choose hell, is a failure of our hell avoiding power in our soul, given my God, to function correctly.
Yes. We choose to misuse the God given ability.
Now, I get back to my question of why some choose evil and others good. In Those who choose evil, the capacity of their souls to avoid hell is not functioning properly,
and in those who choose good the capacity in their souls to avoid hell is functioning properly.
As stated above by you, it does not appear that you really believe that some people choose good and others choose evil. Either God made them “right” and they choose good, or he made them “defective” and they choose bad. If that is actually the case then it isn’t fair.

But, if that is not the case, and people have free will, then all you are commenting on is the sad fact some people choose what is bad for them.
 
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