An emptier Hell than most believe?

[SSTeacher]

I believe that God loves Hitler and a woman who had an abortion equally and infinitely. Since we aren’t capable of knowing the state of either soul right before death, and how it dealt with God’s final appeal to avail themselves of His love and mercy. That makes us uniquely unqualified to pass judgement on either. In fact we are warned not to judge because the measure with which we judge others is the same measure we judge ourselves. So we can say neither is in hell.

Consider this statement:

It’s a fact that there are people currently in hell and that their number will continue to increase but since God alone knows the names of the individuals whom He will allow/send to suffer there in agony for all eternity it is permissible to talk about these people only en bloc in order to avoid the sin of passing judgment upon others.

Is there anything in the above statement that contradicts formal Catholic teaching or doctrine?

Inquiringly,
Mick

 

[slywakka250]

Consider this statement:

It’s a fact

I have never seen anywhere in Catholic teaching where the Church affirms that *anyone at all, not even an ** “en bloc” * in hell. The teaching seems to say in my opinion that it is very very likely that there are people in hell, but I think the Church continues to pray for the salvation of *all *souls, because we do not know, as we do not judge.

 

[Slowlearner]

How does merit have nothing to do with it, with what you describe? You say it yourself, “you turn toward or away” you say. This turning is the act of merit, and this turning toward or away, what ever circumstances it took place in, be it those of pygmy in Africa or the Pope, will be what is on the scale. so I don’t see your point here.

Merit, reward, recognition, recompense, et. cetera and the antonyms penalty, punishment, retribution, price et. cetera are all terms used to conceptualize human worthiness or value.

Rather than associating heaven with our value or worthiness, I sometimes think of heaven as a simple law of nature like gravity. For instance, we don’t say that a penny dropped from a building is rewarded, or earned, or merits the fall to the earth. A penny dropped will fall. Similarly, if you choose God, you get God. It’s not a deal, a contract, or any agreement God offers us. It’s just the truth. If you choose God you get him. Just as if you choose to jump in a pool, you get wet. You are not rewarded with wetness, it is a natural consequence of your choice.

Thankfully we do not have to merit God’s presence because none of us are meritorious. But such is God’s love for us that he shows us mercy in our sinfulness.

For me, understanding heaven and hell was a matter of perspective. When I worshipped myself more than God, when I was the center of the universe, hell seemed a mighty unfair concept to me for reasons nearly identical to those you list above. When I submitted to the Lord, that feeling went away.

For me, I think much of my earlier thinking, though couched in philosophical thoughts and concern for others (how could a loving God do this to his creations?), was really all about ME. At the heart, and I never thought about it much, was the following: “You mean I have to give up my own personal desires, feelings, and pleasures and follow your will to get to Heaven?” At the time I was having too much fun and too busy to give my life to the Lord, but I always thought that someday, maybe when I retired, I’d give some time to God. Seemed pretty unfair to me that if I died before I got around to doing some work for God, then I’d go to hell. Especially, because I considered myself a pretty good citizen. I guess I wanted to get to heaven on my own terms. One of the pretexts I used to rationalize my state of being was that God, if he existed, was unfair, so it was ok for me to do my own thing.

Interestingly, now that I’ve submitted to the Lord, I consider myself LESS WORTHY of heaven (but more likely to get there, I hope and pray). I feel less worthy because I now see and admit my sinful nature which is still with me each and every day. Looking back I don’t feel it would have been unfair for me to go to hell in my state before accepting the Lord. By putting primary importance on myself, all I wanted was ME and that’s all I had. My separation from God was a simple fact.

In his mercy, while I was alive, God acted in ways to bring ME to choose him. He did not force me to do it, but I believe he did things to assist me to see the light. Seems to me that it is logical that the act of faith and trust in God can only be made while we are on earth because it is the only time we can act and make choices.

For me, God also provides meaning to life. Without him, there was no meaning, other than my own happiness, that I could determine (and I believe that no one has been able to explain any meaning absent something greater than our individual desires). Now, the essence of life is pretty simple to me: it is the chance to choose and know God and thereafter do your best to serve him.

We live in a fallen and corrupted world. That’s what the bible explains at the very beginning. Our society tempts people to follow a path of superficial self-happiness. Of course, that is nothing new, it is the story of man. Society says that Christians live in a fairly tale kingdom ruled by a mean and vengeful god. Rather than accept this fairly tale, society begs us to enter a sensual, pleasure dome with no limits, meaning, or consequence. Let us shine as a light for those living in darkness.

 

[lutherlic]

I don’t have anything to add to all the good content already in this thread, but to note the subject on the “Hot Topics” e-mail was different (it is often restated).

The topic on “Hot Topics” was “How full is hell?” The answer that jumped into my head was “there is still plenty of room!”

 

[spockrates]

Very Nice. I’m with you on this one.

Hebrews 9:27 states something like, “it is appointed for man to die once, and after this comes judgement.” Many confuse the word JUDGEMENT with SENTENCING.

The verse doesn’t say it is appointed for man to die once, and after this comes SENTENCING. No it says we are judged. What will I do during my judgement? I’m going to throw myself upon the mercy of the court! Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me, a sinner! Now, as a Christian, I believe I’ll receive additional blessing and reward in heaven for my belief in the unseen Jesus, here on earth.

But there are those, like Thomas (on earth), who will not believe until they see Jesus, corporeally, in heaven. At that judgement time, I believe the vast majority will throw themselves upon the mercy of Jesus, and after their cleansing in Purgatory, will spend eternity in heaven. Unfortunately, upon their judgement, there are those who would rather spit in his face and spend eternity with themselves in Hell. I pray (and suspect) they are very few in number.

God bless.

Do you mean you are with me, Percussion?

 

[spockrates]

Yes – but we’d all have failed the This is Jeopardy! test because there’s no category to link our answers to the question.

LOL!

Well, if the answer were red, or white, or blue, the question would be, “What is an example or kind of color.” If you were to answer, “What is color itself?” you would not win Final Jeopardy, would you?

 

[spockrates]

… I believe so. …:

Yes, so do I. So we have our answer: God the Father loves God the Son–at least He does if we are to believe what the gospel writer quoted Him as saying:

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

(Matthew 3:17)

But the Son of God never sinned–at least He never did if we are to believe what the New Testament author wrote:

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

(Hebrews 4:15)

Therefore, since one who is loved but never sins cannot be forgiven, it stands to reason that not all love is forgiveness.

 

[spockrates]

… Reading this stuff reminds of the fun I used to have with religionists before I became a Christian. I once had a Jehovah’s Witness practically explaining to me how God’s mind worked! The acceptance of mystery is (for me) one of the many attractions of Holy Orthodoxy. Incidentally, in case you didn’t realize it, it’s possible to isolate posts and link to them by clicking on the post number, scil:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6533589&postcount=151

It cuts out the ads, too. …

Well, in all fairness to my friend Ryan, I did ask him to let his imagination run wild and think about what might be, rather than sticking close to what must be. I’ve had my share of discussions with JWs, too. I found them to be sincere, yet sincerely wrong. But the biggest difference between them and thoughtful folks like Ryan is that they would never think outside the box. They only stuck to what the Watchtower told them was so, and beyond that they refused to go!

 

[spockrates]

… The Evangelicals told me the same thing so at least they’re consistent.

Cordially,
Mick

Yes, Mick, that they are!



It’s that consistency that I found, sometimes, to be consistently wrong. Take the whole concept of Hell, for example. To the Evangelical, those who don’t believe receive eternal torment. Those who do believe, even though they might be of lower moral character, get to Heaven. To them, there is no middle ground. You’re either a saint, or an ain’t. You’re either Hellbent, or Heaven bound. There is only one or the other destination when Purgatory is out of the question. I could never understand how that could be loving or just.

 

[PJM]

Lately I have come to wrestle with the idea of a Hell much emptier than most consider. That’s not to say there are not hundreds or thousands or millions of souls there, just less than most people believe. I have a couple of points that I can’t quite reconcile when put together and they have to do with mercy, justice, love, and intention.

At Fatima, Our Lady revealed to the children that “souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” That sounds terrifying, but then I think back to a few other factors: God, the divine creator, is love- the ultimate, most pure love beyond anyone’s imagination. That being said, we all know there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO love in Hell. I know plenty of very secular people that have a difficult time accepting the truth (no matter how much sense it makes and no matter how much truth is presented to them) of Faith and Christianity and God, but have plenty of love and charity and good-will in their hearts- more than many practicing Christians! This being said, a lack of Faith and the decision not to yield their lives to God would send them to Hell, however, all of their love and good must be taken away for them to be condemned to this fate. For all good and charity and love to be stripped from them on their way to Hell would be to actually CHANGE their souls and change their entire being. This does not make sense. Another point to be brought up is that, while we must trust in God’s justice, it is even more important to trust in His mercy. Is it possible that those with love in their hearts and good-will and charity go to Hell? There is no doubt in my mind that there are some (very few) who did have no love in their hearts and made definitive choices to do and be evil, and they are in Hell, but for those who did possess love, charity, and good-will but still chose to contracept while knowing it was wrong, or engage in unchaste behavior while fully aware of it being wrong, could it be they ended up in Heaven, probably with more time in purgatory?

I would love to hear thoughts on this as it is a topic I’m fascinated with that really could affect the way we view our Faith as Catholic Christians.

May God Bless you, Mary guide you, and the Holy Angels protect you!

Without out reservation [a play on words here] God tells us that Hell is MUCH Bigger than Heaven. Why, because it’s OH so much easier to get too.

Matt.7: 13 “***Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” ***

Let us pray!

 

[cranster]

My response was that she was making another argument from ignorance. For nowhere does Saint Paul indicate that a spiritual body is a non-physical body. All he says–and all we can know from what he says–is that a spiritual body is a non-perishable, glorious and powerful one.

I concur my pointy eared friend. the difference between a physical body and a risen body is the former is corruptible, and temporary, and the latter is incorruptible and permanent.

---

I mention all this to you, Cranster only to spare you and I several posts of debating whether Jesus’ body is always made of physical matter, or merely sometimes made of physical matter. Would you be content to say that we cannot know either way unless we find some official Church doctrine that resolves the matter of Jesus’ mysterious matter for us?

Ask and you shall receive.

Direct from the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.509 Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.510 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.511

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”.512

I think that the resurrected body of Jesus is physical in the manner fitting the spiritual realm of the Father. That while able to interact with space and time it can’t be bound by it because space and time are temporary and the spiritual realm of the Father is not. So I think physical things exist in the hyper reality of the spiritual realm of heaven, but they are physical only in the manner fitting that spiritual realm, and do not require the temporary fabric of space time for their existence.

 

[cranster]

Yes, Mick, that they are!



It’s that consistency that I found, sometimes, to be consistently wrong. Take the whole concept of Hell, for example. To the Evangelical, those who don’t believe receive eternal torment. Those who do believe, even though they might be of lower moral character, get to Heaven. To them, there is no middle ground. You’re either a saint, or an ain’t. You’re either Hellbent, or Heaven bound. There is only one or the other destination when Purgatory is out of the question. I could never understand how that could be loving or just.

Let’s say you take a flight from New York To LA, and make a stop in Denver. Would you consider Denver to be the destination? No… the destination is LA.

Purgatory is like Denver on the flight from New York to LA. It’s where you get a good final scrubbing to be clean enough to enter heaven. It’s where all attachment to things, sin, and self, and the stains left by those attachments are removed before you can move onto the final destination of Heaven. The difference between purgatory and Denver is purgatory is as hot as hell and Denver isn’t.

 

[cranster]

Consider this statement:

Is there anything in the above statement that contradicts formal Catholic teaching or doctrine?

Inquiringly,
Mick

Yeah I think that’s a fair statement. We can speak of the population of hell in a general way, but not specific residents of hell, since only God knows who those are. I don’t think it’s judging to speak of the population of hell in a general way.

 

[spockrates]

I concur my pointy eared friend. the difference between a physical body and a risen body is the former is corruptible, and temporary, and the latter is incorruptible and permanent.

---

Ask and you shall receive.

Direct from the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.509 Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.510 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.511

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”.512

I think that the resurrected body of Jesus is physical in the manner fitting the spiritual realm of the Father. That while able to interact with space and time it can’t be bound by it because space and time are temporary and the spiritual realm of the Father is not. So I think physical things exist in the hyper reality of the spiritual realm of heaven, but they are physical only in the manner fitting that spiritual realm, and do not require the temporary fabric of space time for their existence.

Agreed. And thank you for taking the time to find that quote from our Catechism.

 

[spockrates]

Let’s say you take a flight from New York To LA, and make a stop in Denver. Would you consider Denver to be the destination? No… the destination is LA.

Purgatory is like Denver on the flight from New York to LA. It’s where you get a good final scrubbing to be clean enough to enter heaven. It’s where all attachment to things, sin, and self, and the stains left by those attachments are removed before you can move onto the final destination of Heaven. The difference between purgatory and Denver is purgatory is as hot as hell and Denver isn’t.

LOL! Agreed.



Let’s also say that on your way to LA your flight takes a detour to Gary Indiana. There are no outgoing flights. Being trapped in Gary is the closest thing to Hell in Indiana! That’s what I used to believe as an Evangelical–a lot of people thinking they were headed to heavenly LA ended up lost in the Hell of Gary, to their surprise. The only thing different between some of them and some Evangelicals was that they bought the wrong airline ticket.

 

[cranster]

LOL! Agreed.



Let’s also say that on your way to LA your flight takes a detour to Gary Indiana. There are no outgoing flights. Being trapped in Gary is the closest thing to Hell in Indiana! That’s what I used to believe as an Evangelical–a lot of people thinking they were headed to heavenly LA ended up lost in the Hell of Gary, to their surprise. The only thing different between some of them and some Evangelicals was that they bought the wrong airline ticket.

If I got stuck in Gary Indiana I would take a bus, rent a car, hitch hike or walk outta there, and I personally would not head to LA nor would I consider it to be like Heaven.

 

[spockrates]

if i got stuck in gary indiana I would take a bus, rent a car, hitch hike or walk outta there, and i personally would not head to la nor would i consider it to be like heaven.

lol!

:d

 

[cranster]

This issue of this thread has been of critical importance to me for the last year, and is the primary reason I am considering leaving the Church, as this issue causes me to be very angry at God.

What kind of God would create us, and then demand that we obey and love him under threat of eternal damnation?

The main issue here for me is not justice, or love, or forgiveness necessarily, but the very fact of creation of a soul without that souls permission so to speak.

God has created each soul, knowing full well the peril he would bring that soul into. Many people go their whole lives oblivious to God’s existence. many others spend their whole lives seeking truth but are unable to find it. Some engage in every kind of evil, knowing this or that God disapproves of their actions, but being unconvinced of the existence of that God, cannot truly regard their actions as evil. Everyone lives as they see fit at every moment in proportion to their level of belief/faith/experience.

Basically, I can not accept that one person uses his or her free will better than another persons. For why does one person choose evil and another good? I find the idea that some people just happen to have some quality in their souls which makes them choose a set of actions more morally in line with natural law, divine law, and reality itself, and that by doing so they acquire merit, as opposed to demerit, thus avoiding hell, absolutely absurd.

perhaps I could believe if God were more self-evident, but the very fact that humans created in his image struggle with his existence or non-existence tells me that God is not self-evident nor morality self-evident enough to merit hell for anybody,

How can God hold us responsible for our own damnation, when it is only God who created the conditions(the creation of anything at all, and our souls in particular), that allowed for the possibility of eternal suffering??

What would resolve this entire issue for me however, is if annihilation was possible. the fact that hell is so bad and eternal is just too much; the fact that the nature of God prevents him from annihilating his good creation, even when he is in hell is too great a tragedy as could be allowed an all loving God.

I’ve been there, and I know how it feels. I remember seeing a case where a guy shot his mother, and brother to death, and critically wounded his father. All because he was angry that his parents brought him into the world without his permission. It didn’t change the reality of his existence, but it did get him life in prison without the possibility of parole.

I think the way we look at things makes all the difference in the world. One way to look at it is that God didn’t ask my permission for my existence, and only gave me the possibility of heaven or hell all through the exercise of my terrible and wonderful free will.

Another way to look at it is in the council of the Trinity before anything was created, and out of all possible people to create you were decided out of love, not anger, or the need for condemnation. That makes you and I extraordinarily rare creatures. God knows something we don’t, and that is the gift that He Himself is. The desire from all eternity was that you share the life of the Trinity forever. Love exists in the will, and it must be free for love to be true. Since God loves us unconditionally, He desires, but doesn’t demand the same from us toward Him. Love can’t be real without the possibility that we could chose not to love, and nothing but pure love can be in God’s presence. Don’t forfeit the possibility of being with God forever because He didn’t consult you before he made you. That would be a decision you would regret forever. God knows that He Himself is a gift to you that infinitely outweighs the burden of having a free will with the possibility of choosing hell. If that were not the case He wouldn’t have made you or I. He could have just as easily decided on someone other than you. Existence is better than non existence. Just think what you would have already missed out on if you didn’t exist with the best to come. Your will is there to use as you and only you choose. It doesn’t matter how others use theirs, only how you use yours. You can choose to stop poisoning your well if you wish. Nothing good will come from it. You have my prayers my friend.

If you aren’t now praying the rosary daily I highly recommend you do before making a decision of that magnitude, and see if your outlook doesn’t change.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6553397:

It’s a fact

that there are people currently in hell and that their number will continue to increase but since God alone knows the names of the individuals whom He will allow/send to suffer there in agony for all eternity it is permissible to talk about these people only en bloc in order to avoid the sin of passing judgment upon others.Is there anything in the above statement that contradicts formal Catholic teaching or doctrine?

Inquiringly,
Mick
:thumbsup:I have never seen anywhere in Catholic teaching where the Church affirms that *anyone at all, not even an ** “en bloc” * in hell. The teaching seems to say in my opinion that it is very very likely that there are people in hell, but I think the Church continues to pray for the salvation of *all *souls, because we do not know, as we do not judge.

Thanks for responding.

SSTeacher;6553397:

Consider this statement:

It’s a fact

that there are people currently in hell and that their number will continue to increase but since God alone knows the names of the individuals whom He will allow/send to suffer there in agony for all eternity it is permissible to talk about these people only en bloc in order to avoid the sin of passing judgment upon others.

Is there anything in the above statement that contradicts formal Catholic teaching or doctrine?

Inquiringly,
Mick
:thumbsup:Yeah I think that’s a fair statement. We can speak of the population of hell in a general way, but not specific residents of hell, since only God knows who those are. I don’t think it’s judging to speak of the population of hell in a general way.

Remembering, of course, that whether or not there are people in hell is a matter of private opinion (I declared incorrectly that it was a fact).

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6553130:

Yes – but we’d all have failed the This is Jeopardy!

test because there’s no category to link our answers to the question.LOL!

Well, if the answer were red, or white, or blue, the question would be, “What is an example or kind of color.” If you were to answer, “What is color itself?” you would not win Final Jeopardy, would you?

No, I certainly wouldn’t.

So we have our answer: God the Father loves God the Son–at least He does if we are to believe what the gospel writer quoted Him as saying:

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

(Matthew 3:17)

But the Son of God never sinned–at least He never did if we are to believe what the New Testament author wrote:

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

(Hebrews 4:15)

Therefore, since one who is loved but never sins cannot be forgiven, it stands to reason that not all love is forgiveness.

Can that understanding be used to advantage?

SSTeacher;6553130:

… Reading this stuff reminds of the fun I used to have with religionists before I became a Christian. I once had a Jehovah’s Witness practically explaining to me how God’s mind worked! The acceptance of mystery is (for me) one of the many attractions of Holy Orthodoxy. Incidentally, in case you didn’t realize it, it’s possible to isolate posts and link to them by clicking on the post number, scil:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6533589&postcount=151

It cuts out the ads, too. …Well, in all fairness to my friend Ryan, I did ask him to let his imagination run wild and think about what might be, rather than sticking close to what must be. I’ve had my share of discussions with JWs, too. I found them to be sincere, yet sincerely wrong. But the biggest difference between them and thoughtful folks like Ryan is that they would never think outside the box. They only stuck to what the Watchtower told them was so, and beyond that they refused to go!

Can’t altogether blame them, though, huh?
.

SSTeacher;6553130:

… The Evangelicals told me the same thing so at least they’re consistent.

Cordially,
Mick

Yes, Mick, that they are!

It’s that consistency that I found, sometimes, to be consistently wrong. Take the whole concept of Hell, for example. To the Evangelical, those who don’t believe receive eternal torment. Those who do believe, even though they might be of lower moral character, get to Heaven. To them, there is no middle ground. You’re either a saint, or an ain’t. You’re either Hellbent, or Heaven bound. There is only one or the other destination when Purgatory is out of the question. I could never understand how that could be loving or just.

So how would you have made sense of God’s love, God’s justice, and God’s mercy had you lived as a Christian prior to the doctrine of purgatory being developed in the West? In other words, if belief in purgatory were not a viable option for you, would your belief system totter?

Feel free to think outside the box, bun or current millennium.

Thoughtfully,
Mick