An Honest Question for Any Honest Muslim

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Jewish historian, Josephus. In his book, “Antiquities of the Jews”, which he finished in the year A.D. 93 or 94, Josephus refers to Jesus twice. This is the authentic version.

The Arabic version reads as follows:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders

Caius the Roman also wrote, and his book refers to the deaths of Peter and Paul. And states. “I will take you to see their graves if you would like”. And correctly mentions where Paul was Martryed.

Today we see that many Roman authors are referred to from this early period, who didn’t write about Christ. That has little importance. How many great authors existed during the time of Mohammad and never mention him? To me thats like talking apples and oranges.
 
So let us not pretend that “just” Christians or Jews witnessed this and where aware of Christ and exactly how he died. Here’s another…

Cornelius Tacitus, who was one of the greatest of the Roman historians, also mentioned Christ in his Annals, written about A.D. 110. During his description of the burning of Rome, Tacitus wrote that rumors were spreading that Nero had set the fire himself. Tacitus wrote of Nero:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a deadly superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but also in the City [Rome], where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world meet and become popular.

SOOoooooooo I would have to conclude, Christ really died on that Cross by Pilates hand.
 
So let us not pretend that “just” Christians or Jews witnessed this and where aware of Christ and exactly how he died. Here’s another…

Cornelius Tacitus, who was one of the greatest of the Roman historians, also mentioned Christ in his Annals, written about A.D. 110. During his description of the burning of Rome, Tacitus wrote that rumors were spreading that Nero had set the fire himself. Tacitus wrote of Nero:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a deadly superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but also in the City [Rome], where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world meet and become popular.

SOOoooooooo I would have to conclude, Christ really died on that Cross by Pilates hand.
Yes, this bit of writing from Tacitus was what I was referring to. Thank you for posting it 👍
 
Jewish historian, Josephus. In his book, “Antiquities of the Jews”, which he finished in the year A.D. 93 or 94, Josephus refers to Jesus twice. This is the authentic version.

The Arabic version reads as follows:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders

Caius the Roman also wrote, and his book refers to the deaths of Peter and Paul. And states. “I will take you to see their graves if you would like”. And correctly mentions where Paul was Martryed.

Today we see that many Roman authors are referred to from this early period, who didn’t write about Christ. That has little importance. How many great authors existed during the time of Mohammad and never mention him? To me thats like talking apples and oranges.
Awesome quote. I’m glad you found that 👍

“Today we see that many Roman quthors are referred to from this early period, who didn’t write about Christ. That has little importance. How many great authors existed during the time of Mohammad and never mention him?”

With all due respect, I don’t believe anyone has brought up this objection in this thread yet.
 
Fine. Allah tricked everyone into believing Jesus was crucified so it’s Allah’s fault that people believe in the crucifixion and Christianity.
Believing in the crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh) is not a sin… at least for the non-Muslim.

However, assigning divinity to Jesus (pbuh) is indeed an unpardonable sin in the eyes of Allah if the person dies with that belief after learning about the teachings of Islam.

If however the person dies before the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or if that someone is unaware of what Islam teaches, then there would be a special test for him or her on the Day of Judgment.

Alas, for those who are on this forum, this does not apply to them since they already know what Islam teaches about the mission of Jesus (pbuh) and about his alleged crucifixion… and they then willingly CHOOSE to reject the Message from their Lord.
 
Believing in the crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh) is not a sin… at least for the non-Muslim.

However, assigning divinity to Jesus (pbuh) is indeed an unpardonable sin in the eyes of Allah if the person dies with that belief after learning about the teachings of Islam.

If however the person dies before the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or if that someone is unaware of what Islam teaches, then there would be a special test for him or her on the Day of Judgment.

Alas, for those who are on this forum, this does not apply to them since they already know what Islam teaches about the mission of Jesus (pbuh) and about his alleged crucifixion… and they then willingly CHOOSE to reject the Message from their Lord.
It’s very peculiar how similar these beliefs are to Christianity. It seems both Islam and Christianity profess to be correct and demand obedience if you hear about their messages. Please, give me a reason other than potential damnation to accept Islam over Christianity, for Christianity says damnation awaits me if I do what you ask.
 
Once Moses led the Israelites from Egypt is a good place to start. Deuteronomy is filled with laws and instructions on how to treat those who transgress the law.
The laws in Deuteronomy was given to Israelites after 40 years of the desert without having learned anything.
On Sinai, God gave them a Law for holiness. With this law, they were to go to Canaan in holiness and convert people there by their holiness.
However from the Golden Calf incident on, they kept falling that by 40 years, they had not changed. In fact, they had just fallen into a second greatest sin (Numbers 25). They had learned that it is very hard to be holy according to God’s standard, but they had not asked him to give them power to be holy. This is what Moses told them 40 years after giving them the Deuteronomical laws:
Deuteronomy 29:
[1] These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab: beside that covenant which he made with them in Horeb. [2] And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: You have seen all the things that the Lord did before you in the land of Egypt to Pharao, and to all his servants, and to his whole land. [3] The great temptations, which thy eyes have seen, those mighty signs and wonders, [4] And the Lord hath not given you a heart to understand, and eyes to see, and ears that may hear, unto this present day. [5] He hath brought you forty years through the desert: your garments are not worn out, neither are the shoes of your feet consumed with age.
Here, Moses is telling them that since they keep falling and are not asking God for help, God has commanded him to find a way to deal with them. 40 years have passed and they are about to cross the Jordan to enter the land. Yet, they are not ready. They are more prone to adopt pagan practices (Numbers 25) than the pagans are to adopt their holiness. So Moses (not God) made the Deuteronomy covenant with them at God’s request. Here, because of their wickedness, Moses tolerated a numbers of evils but told them that unless they repent, the curses (Deut. 28) which he pointed out will befall them (Deut. 30). He also prophesied that they will suffer greatly through their sins and learn through their suffering that they can’t achieve anything by themselves. Then they will ask God his grace to transform their hearts so that their eyes would see , and ear would hear.
Deut. 30: [1] Now when all these things shall become upon thee, the blessing or the curse, which I have set forth before thee, and thou shalt be **touched with repentance of thy heart **among all the nations, into which the Lord thy God shall have scattered thee, [2] And shalt return to him, and obey his commandments, as I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul: [3] The Lord thy God will bring back again thy captivity, and will have mercy on thee, and gather thee again out of all the nations, into which he scattered thee before. [4] If thou be driven as far as the poles of heaven, the Lord thy God will fetch thee back from thence, [5] And will take thee to himself, and bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it: and blessing thee, he will make thee more numerous than were thy fathers.
[6] The Lord thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed: that then mayst love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayst live. [7] And he will turn all these curses upon thy enemies, and upon them that hate and persecute thee.
Now, all these things happened. Through Joshua, David, Salomon, etc up to John the Baptist (who gave them a baptism of repentance) all this things happened. They struggled with enemies, built a Temple and got it destroyed, they went to exile several times and got scattered into the nations. Then they cried to the Lord and the Lord sent them Jesus.

Those who received Jesus, God did to their hearts what he promised. Through Jesus, God gives us the Holy Spirit. And by the power of the Holy Spirit, hope and faith are restored in their glories and splendor. People of God are made capable to abolish things like death penalties or Genocide survivals to forgive those who harmed their families. This is not weakness it is divine power. It is not anyone who can love their enemy.

When we distance ourselves from God, God leave us alone so that we may prove ourselves. When we refuse his laws, he leave us to make our own laws until we are convinced of their deficiency… So yes, it is still justice when we are left to ourselves.
It is God’s justice when an addict prosper in their addiction. But this is not a blessing but a curse. God’s law has blessing for those who obey it, and curses for those who disobey. both streams from his loving kindness. When the addict hit bottom, he wakes up and thank God. But God does not wishes us to go through all this in order to get it.
 
Sister Amy,
We can only take Mohammed’s word that what he said was true. You say he was known as virtuous. However, as the others have said there were witnesses to Jesus and and his miracles not to mention the rise of what was eventually called Christianity. Did Mohammed perform any miracles? While dictating the Koran is important is there anymore than that?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
 
Actually there is recorded record in the NT. There were Apostles who witnessed the event Sister Amy. You are certainly entitled to believe as you wish. But by your own logic how would you chose to believe the same story told 600 years after the event, as opposed to an eye witness or the Apostles? Peter, John, Paul, Luke etc all had first hand knowledge of the NT events. The painting Luke painted of Christ and Mary still exists.

While the OT is very informative and historically correct, its fufilled through the messianic prophecy of the NT.

The witnesses of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ are listed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.

Paul also speaks about the Old Testament testimony to the resurrection of Christ in Acts 13:27-39.

1 Corinthians 15:5 “He was seen by Cephas” {Peter} Luke 24:34

1 Corinthians 15:6 “After that he was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present”

1 Corinthians 15:7 “After that He was seen by James”

1 Corinthians 15:7 “then by all the apostles”

To say I believe what God said in the Quran could only indicate one thing. Someone must have misinterpreted by what God said, or maybe they actually didn’t talk to him?, Because we have eyewitness accounts of Christ Crucifixtion and Resurrection.
I would like to reply to your post but generally I try to avoid confrontations about the Bible because some people get defensive and start launching incredibly wild and bizarre accusations.

Sorry.
 
Sister Amy,
We can only take Mohammed’s word that what he said was true. You say he was known as virtuous. However, as the others have said there were witnesses to Jesus and and his miracles not to mention the rise of what was eventually called Christianity. Did Mohammed perform any miracles? While dictating the Koran is important is there anymore than that?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
People witnessed Muhammad, they witnessed him performing miracles (which have been recounted in authentic ahadith), they witnessed the revelation (has also been described by those present) and some even witnessed the Angel Gabriel.
 
When people ask for honest answers from Muslims, they should expect that what Muslims might say about the teachings of their own faith might not exactly be to their liking.

Islam is all about what is taught in the Qur’an and in the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and I do not know of any other kind of “Islam” that is even worth talking about.

And so, I really do not understand why people should feel hurt or offended when I quote verses from the Qur’an and the ahadith and also verses from the Bible in order to support my views.

I feel that Muslims here are following proper etiquette in confining ourselves to the non-Catholic section of CAF and it is out of respect for the Catholics here that we do not try to barge into other rooms in the house of CAF to express our views.

Like I said, if forum participants want honest answers from Muslims, then they in turn should honestly declare that Muslim views are welcomed in CAF, at least in the non-Catholic section.
 
It is best that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself answer the question asked.

"By the One in whose hand my soul is, no Jew or Christian of this community hears about me - {that is from the community of people from the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) until the Day of Judgment} - and then does not follow me - or he said does not believe in what I brought - except that he is from the inhabitants of the Hell-fire." [Saheeh Muslim]
So, let me understand what is being said here. Christians or Jews who hear of Islam, but do not become Muslim, are from the inhabitants of hell-fire, and thus are damned. Is that what Muhammad is saying?
 
Out of interest, do some Catholics who think that all non-Catholics are damned to Hell?
 
So, let me understand what is being said here. Christians or Jews who hear of Islam, but do not become Muslim, are from the inhabitants of hell-fire, and thus are damned. Is that what Muhammad is saying?
In a word… Yes.

But unfortunately, Muslims too are not guaranteed of a place in Paradise.

On the contrary, sinful Muslims who do not repent their wrongdoings are almost guaranteed of spending a certain amount of time in the Hell-fire as well.
 
On the contrary, sinful Muslims who do not repent their wrongdoings are almost guaranteed of spending **a certain amount of time **in the Hell-fire as well.
Is that to say, ‘a certain amount of time’, but not forever? Forgive my ignorance, I am not familiar with the tenets of Islam, but that statement caught my attention. Those who do not repent are only subject to hell for a time? What happens after that?
 
Is that to say, ‘a certain amount of time’, but not forever? Forgive my ignorance, I am not familiar with the tenets of Islam, but that statement caught my attention. Those who do not repent are only subject to hell for a time? What happens after that?
After spending time in Hell, they will be admitted into Paradise.

The fires of Hell, besides being punishment for their wrongdoing, would also be a cleansing process for them.

However, it would of course be unimaginably unpleasant and painful and all the pleasures in the world would not be worth spending even one moment in the Hell-fire.

It is therefore not a recommended way to enter Paradise.

There is however some disagreement among the scholars of Islam whether or not everyone who enters the Hell-fire would be permitted to leave it eventually.

BTW, Paradise has many levels and so the people who have gone through Hell would perhaps eventually be admitted to the lower levels… and Allah knows best.
 
You are asking the wrong “authority” on the subject.

The truth is that I do not know and the only One who would know for sure would be the Master of the Day of Judgment.

However, what I do know from a hadith is that the creations who have not heard of the teachings of Islam will be given a special test on that Day in order to determine whether or not they deserve to be admitted into Paradise to be with their Lord and Creator.
 
After spending time in Hell, they will be admitted into Paradise.

The fires of Hell, besides being punishment for their wrongdoing, would also be a cleansing process for them.

However, it would of course be unimaginably unpleasant and painful and all the pleasures in the world would not be worth spending even one moment in the Hell-fire.

It is therefore not a recommended way to enter Paradise.

There is however some disagreement among the scholars of Islam whether or not everyone who enters the Hell-fire would be permitted to leave it eventually.

BTW, Paradise has many levels and so the people who have gone through Hell would perhaps eventually be admitted to the lower levels… and Allah knows best.
Sounds almost like Purgatory!

🙂

Too bad we infidels get stopped at the exit door while the Muslims get to leave.
 
Well while I’m at it I’ll through at one more thing. Isn’t there some debate on Islamic prayers you can say for the dead. Isn’t that similar to the saints in Catholism?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
 
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