An honest question from a Catholic

[KephasAugustine]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.

I am honestly wondering (and have been for years now) how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. Also, and this is just an afterthought, He tells a parable just a few verses before this about the talents. The men with 5 and 2 talents are rewarded because they went out and did something, and the third, who received only one talent, did nothing but know the master and what the master was like, and did not go out and do anything. It seems odd to me, then (and maybe I completely misunderstand "sola fide–if I do please explain it to me), that some Protestants believe that works hold no water in the eyes of God, and merit nothing–especially in light of verses 31ff. What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

 

[LutheranDK]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.

I am honestly wondering (and have been for years now) how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. Also, and this is just an afterthought, He tells a parable just a few verses before this about the talents. The men with 5 and 2 talents are rewarded because they went out and did something, and the third, who received only one talent, did nothing but know the master and what the master was like, and did not go out and do anything. It seems odd to me, then (and maybe I completely misunderstand "sola fide–if I do please explain it to me), that some Protestants believe that works hold no water in the eyes of God, and merit nothing–especially in light of verses 31ff. What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

Nice to finally have a thread on this that is not baiting

The heart of the matter is not IF we should do good works, because we SHOULD. You’re right in saying that Scripture leaves no doubt as to that. The question is, however:

WHY should we do good works? Should we do good works IN ORDER TO be saved, or BECAUSE we are saved?
I say the latter, because I believe that it is what the Bible teaches:

Salvation is achieved through faith, which then shows itself in good deeds. The passage from James which is normally used against Sola Fide was written into an entirely different context. It was written to people who said something like this:

“If we’re saved by faith, then good works are irrelevant, and we don’t need to do good” = treating Christendom as another kind of Greek philosophy which was intellectually challenging, but without practical applications.
It is THIS heresy which James rebukes, and rightly so. He is not challenging Sola Fide; he is rebuking the abuse of it to lawlessness.

 

[Publisher]

Good works are a necessary part of a Christian’s life. Through our good works Christ lives in our world again. Through good works we grow, day by day into the likeness of Christ. They are the natural product of a heart redeemed. They do not redeem us, they are a product of our redemption…we have become new creations.

George Fox wrote “For I am come up through Flaming Sword into the Paradise of God…” In Christ we gain that state Adam had before the fall, so to speak…we are brought back into Paradise…Christ is our Paradise…He is our Sabbath Rest…“In Him we live and move and have our being.”

Good works are necessary…they show our salvation…they are the “fruit” of the Tree of Life we are now fed with…they are the “pathway” we walk on now that we’ve entered the Door…we do not trust in our works…we trust in the One who renewed our hearts and called us to good works…not only called us…but predestined us FOR good works…we share His nature…how could we not share also in His works…which are nothing but good?

There is no work I could do to equal the Work He has already done for me…there is no work I could do that would bring me back out of the darkness…He came to me and carried me back into the Light…He is the One who sought us…He is the One who offers us the faith to respond to Him…“He is our all and in all.” “Behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we sould be called the Children of God.”

 

[KephasAugustine]

Can it be said, then, that without good works, the person is not really “faithful” in the Christian sense? If “the tree is known by its fruits,” and good works are the fruit of the tree of faith, as it were, would it make sense to say that the two are inseparable?

I’m guess the reason I’m still confused is because the reason Christ keeps the “goats” out of heaven is precisely because “you did not do…” etc. In fact, the goats state that they believed in Him, and just didn’t realize they had to treat others with kindness as well. It seems that in regard to the sheep, their faith and their works are what gain their access into heaven, and with the goats, their belief without works is what bars them from the Kingdom. Would you argue that their “belief” is not true, or just a “false faith” as it were?

Again, I hope this doesn’t seem or sound like baiting or trying to prove you wrong. I really just want to understand better.

Thanks again.

 

[manualman]

In my experience, the protestants who have thought hard on the passage see it as simply a statement of the fact that faith will have those effects on the lives of the believers. BECAUSE they were already believers, Grace worked on their insides and made them into the kind of people who do those good works.

This is different than the catholic understanding that CHOOSING to do an act of charity out of love and obedience to Christ can actually be an avenue where we open our hearts to Christ and allow him to DO that sanctification we so desperately need.

The difference is subtle, but IMO makes it a lot easier for the former to sit back and sip lattes at the megachurch coffee bar and wait for Grace to come along and compell him to works of charity. (Although in fairness, we’ve more than our fair share of goats in the pews too. I just think ours are a basic faith problem, more than a theology problem)

 

[greystoke]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.

I am honestly wondering (and have been for years now) how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. Also, and this is just an afterthought, He tells a parable just a few verses before this about the talents. The men with 5 and 2 talents are rewarded because they went out and did something, and the third, who received only one talent, did nothing but know the master and what the master was like, and did not go out and do anything. It seems odd to me, then (and maybe I completely misunderstand "sola fide–if I do please explain it to me), that some Protestants believe that works hold no water in the eyes of God, and merit nothing–especially in light of verses 31ff. What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

Luther ADDED the word alone in his translation of the Bible into German.

The only words where the words “by faith alone” occur in the whole Bible is in the Epistle of James, and they are preceeded by the word “NOT”!

Protestants are on the same side as us against the forces of darknes. But methinks their claim to put their faith in the the Word of God in the Bible alone, “Sola Scriptura” should actually read that they put their faith in Martin Luther alone, and his interpretations of Scripture.

 

[SIA]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.

I am honestly wondering (and have been for years now) how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. Also, and this is just an afterthought, He tells a parable just a few verses before this about the talents. The men with 5 and 2 talents are rewarded because they went out and did something, and the third, who received only one talent, did nothing but know the master and what the master was like, and did not go out and do anything. It seems odd to me, then (and maybe I completely misunderstand "sola fide–if I do please explain it to me), that some Protestants believe that works hold no water in the eyes of God, and merit nothing–especially in light of verses 31ff. What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

Great honest question! I believe in the whole of Scripture. I believe that what we do says much about our faith as does St. James. I also believe that ultimately there is nothing that we can do to merit our Salvation. Jesus said that one must accept the Kingdom of God as a child accepts a gift. Faith saves us but works must accompany proper faith. C.S. Lewis said that in the end, it won’t matter what we did, but who we are with.

 

[manualman]

…methinks their claim to put their faith in the the Word of God in the Bible alone, “Sola Scriptura” should actually read that they put their faith in Martin Luther alone, and his interpretations of Scripture.

Nah, you go too far. I find Luther as morbidly fascinating as the next catholic, but most protestants alive today know nothing of Luther. They honestly put their trust in God and erroneously believe that God left us here with nothing but an inspired book (and a notoriously inconsistant Holy Spirit) to help us figure life out.

 

[manualman]

Great honest question! I believe in the whole of Scripture. I believe that what we do says much about our faith as does St. James. I also believe that ultimately there is nothing that we can do to merit our Salvation. Jesus said that one must accept the Kingdom of God as a child accepts a gift. Faith saves us but works must accompany proper faith. C.S. Lewis said that in the end, it won’t matter what we did, but who we are with.

I wonder if a discussion about the difference in definition between ‘earn’ and ‘merit’ is in order here. I’d agree with sentence #3 if it used the word ‘earn.’ But merit is not an objective deserving, it is a subjective one.

Lewis is a great man. But JESUS said clearly in the Sheep and Goats narrative that what we do is part of what makes us what we are. When and if Jesus and Lewis come into conflict, I’m sticking with Christ!

 

[SIA]

I wonder if a discussion about the difference in definition between ‘earn’ and ‘merit’ is in order here. I’d agree with sentence #3 if it used the word ‘earn.’ But merit is not an objective deserving, it is a subjective one.

Lewis is a great man. But JESUS said clearly in the Sheep and Goats narrative that what we do is part of what makes us what we are. When and if Jesus and Lewis come into conflict, I’m sticking with Christ!

They don’t conflict. What we do says alot about what we are and ultimately who we are with.

 

[LutheranDK]

Luther ADDED the word alone in his translation of the Bible into German.

The only words where the words “by faith alone” occur in the whole Bible is in the Epistle of James, and they are preceeded by the word “NOT”!

Protestants are on the same side as us against the forces of darknes. But methinks their claim to put their faith in the the Word of God in the Bible alone, “Sola Scriptura” should actually read that they put their faith in Martin Luther alone, and his interpretations of Scripture.

http://www.oh-snap.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/BeatDeadHorse.gif

 

[LutheranDK]

In my experience, the protestants who have thought hard on the passage see it as simply a statement of the fact that faith will have those effects on the lives of the believers. BECAUSE they were already believers, Grace worked on their insides and made them into the kind of people who do those good works.

That’s, basically, it

This is different than the catholic understanding that CHOOSING to do an act of charity out of love and obedience to Christ can actually be an avenue where we open our hearts to Christ and allow him to DO that sanctification we so desperately need.

Well, I would also say that I choose to do acts of charity. But the reason I choose to do it, is that I want to please my Father in Heaven, and live my life as He wants me to. I want to serve others, because Christ has saved me.
As far as I understand, the difference between the RC and “protestant” understanding is whether or not we do good works in in order to be saved or because we’re saved.

The difference is subtle, but IMO makes it a lot easier for the former to sit back and sip lattes at the megachurch coffee bar and wait for Grace to come along and compell him to works of charity.

Unfortunately, I have to agree here There is, in some circles, this horrible misunderstanding that until the Holy Spirit descends like a dove and a voice thunders from on high: “Go help people!”, we shouldn’t do anything. That is not what Sola Fide is about.

The danger I can see, and feel free to correct me (charitably!!) if I’m wrong, with the RC point of view, is that Pharisee’ism becomes a very real possibility. That one begins to rely on oneself for salvation, through one’s good deeds, and not on Christ.

 

[ralphinal]

There are two other acpects of this that I want to discuss.

First, is it possible that there is a part of doing good works that aids in salvation? How many of us have heard that idle hands are the devil’s workshop? When we are focused on proclaiming AND living the Christian life, it leaves less room for sin.

Second, does it matter to the conversation if we see a separation between justification, sanctification, and salvation?

 

[manualman]

As far as I understand, the difference between the RC and “protestant” understanding is whether or not we do good works in in order to be saved or because we’re saved.

Ah, and here we run smack into vastly different views on the nature of salvation. Protestants tend to think of being saved as a moment in time when their souls changed from utterly depraved to being eternally saved. Salvation is an event. Such thinking, of course is utterly incompatible with St. Paul’s warnings that we must endure to the end.

Salvation in catholicism is not a binary event, it is a lifetime of little choices of accepting God’s Grace instead of yielding to our own fallenness. Protestants do well to note the danger of starting to feel that salvation is ‘earned.’ Fortunately, the catholic church has for millenia warned against such a heresy (which we call ‘Presumption’).

 

[willingheart]

The danger I can see, and feel free to correct me (charitably!!) if I’m wrong, with the RC point of view, is that Pharisee’ism becomes a very real possibility. That one begins to rely on oneself for salvation, through one’s good deeds, and not on Christ.

I would agree with this. The other problem is this: if works are a part of the salvation equation, if God requires me to do certain things, then what specifically are they? And how many are “enough?” If I’m counting on my works in addition to Jesus’s sacrifice, how will I know when I am done?

 

[M0nkey]

This has been my problem with sola fide ever since I was introduced to the idea; it simply doesn’t make any sense. And what I see now is that the very act of faith is in itself works and a gift. You can quote scripture to support it, but at the end, like Martin Luther once said (and I paraphrase) you can fit bits and pieces of scripture like wax into any round or square hole.

 

[Carlos_Ramos]

If one walks in good faith, that’s what’s important. Being anxious about refuting what somebody else says is contrary to a spirit of charity. Do not judge. I would think that we should also recall the parable of the workers in the vineyard: those who were recruited last were paid as much as those who were working all day. The same goes for the parable of the prodigal son. The Father received the scoundrel with great joy while he took the other son for granted. The point is: God is free to do as He chooses and we should be grateful for his having chosen us from all eternity to give us the gift of faith and salvation. We cannot buy God with good works, nor can we impose on Him the obligation to admit us into Heaven. We have no right to claim anything, just like the good son or the ninety nine other sheep vis a vis the wayward one.

Thanks

 

[LutheranDK]

Such thinking [that salvation is an event], of course is utterly incompatible with St. Paul’s warnings that we must endure to the end.

Depends on what Paul meant by that
Did he mean
“Keep the faith” (because we are only saved as long as we’re in the true Faith)
or
“Keep doing good”

Salvation in catholicism is not a binary event, it is a lifetime of little choices of accepting God’s Grace instead of yielding to our own fallenness. Protestants do well to note the danger of starting to feel that salvation is ‘earned.’ Fortunately, the catholic church has for millenia warned against such a heresy (which we call ‘Presumption’).

But…If the RC church says that salvation is through faith AND works, isn’t it also thereby saying that salvation is, at least partly, earned by us? And then the question remains: When have we done enough to escape Hell?
I do not see this uncertainty about the salvation of Christians in the Bible, and I can’t see how the usual “textbook arguments” thrown at us non-RCs are say this. Please inform me, as I’d like to understand RC teachings better

 

[nbtb1348]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.

I am honestly wondering (and have been for years now) how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. Also, and this is just an afterthought, He tells a parable just a few verses before this about the talents. The men with 5 and 2 talents are rewarded because they went out and did something, and the third, who received only one talent, did nothing but know the master and what the master was like, and did not go out and do anything. It seems odd to me, then (and maybe I completely misunderstand "sola fide–if I do please explain it to me), that some Protestants believe that works hold no water in the eyes of God, and merit nothing–especially in light of verses 31ff. What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

Thanks for the opportunity to share. First, I would strongly encourage you to let Scripture say what it says. You can’t pull out some verses and not look at them all together. They do not contradict themselves.

One of Jesus’ missions, prior to the cross, was to convince proud Jews and especially the religious leaders, that their righteousness was like dirty rags compared to God’s.

Secondly, we believe that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD FAITH! How many times do we have to say it? True saving faith works, and it works wonderfully and in increasing measure. If I ask you to come look at my new baby with real human life in him, and then I pull back the blanket and there is a doll there, it is not going to move and grow and live, because there is no life. It’s fake. But that baby is going to grow up and do marvelous things, and nothing will ever take its humanness away, even though it won’t walk for about a year! And he will fall a lot.

Thirdly, we say that a man is justified by faith apart from any works of the law, because those are the very words of Scripture!

And Paul says, (do you think we make this stuff up?) "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. "
But then he goes on to say, “10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT SAVES US! Conversion, cross-appropriating faith saved us. And yes, we were gloriously saved, though sometimes we fall. God knew we would.

 

[With_Questions]

Since this is my first “faith alone” thread, I will approach this with some trepidation.

I will try to approach this a little differently, in a less theological way.

Imagine a timeline that starts at the instant one when one becomes a Christian and ends at death. Assume for now we are dealing with the adult believer who comes to Christ (the question of children is a little thorny although I believe the principles are the same)

Works are not a part of the equation of becoming a Christian initially at instant one. What is a part of the equation is faith in Jesus Christ and some degree of repentance.

At instant one, the believer is also regenerated. Regeneration means that one receives some level of transformation through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

After instant one (the point of conversion) to the time of death. works are absolutely necessary. However these follow regeneration and would not occur without regeneration. Thus they are viewed as a result of regeneration.

It is impossible to be regenerated and to have no change in lifestyle between the point of regeneration and death from prior to regeneration. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit transforms the believer.