An honest question from a Catholic

[willingheart]

Seems like your free to do as you want because your already saved.

No one who is truly saved would feel free to do what they want. In loving God, we hate sin just as He does, and together with the Holy Spirit we root out the sin in our lives. (This is how I understand “working out your salvation,” that your salvation works its way in your heart and life through the HS. Probably not saying this the best I can.)

To me the catholic church shows you the ways of doing good works and when you fail you can go humble yourself before the lord in reconcilation.

Funny, sometimes I think it would be easier to be Catholic. To have someone spell out everything for me and to know there’s a system in place to fix it when I mess up. I think it is harder to put your trust fully in Jesus. Kind of like the rich man and the kingdom of heaven. Jesus knew that the man relied on himself and his wealth for security, so He asked the man to give it up so he could fully rely on God. That was harder for the man to do, so he walked away.

Then get up and keep on putting in your time and good deeds, with hope and prayers to be saved until the end.

Isn’t the uncertainty a burden to you? It was to me.

(Nice job making up, guys!)

 

[Chancellare]

Those verses do not in any way change the fact that God puts the power and desire to do good works into the believer at the moment of salvation!

And when is that moment?

 

[Aaron409]

To each their own than and no its not a burden to not know if i have been saved yet or not. It is my motivation to keep a holy life dedicated to God. Trust me sometimes it isn’t the easy thing to go to confession

 

[NDfan]

the problem w/ this is we preempt God of our salvation. can you say you are saved w/ certitude? what guarantee do you have that you’ll not sin? remember the bakers, jimmy swaggart? how about judas iscariot? when we finally have to face our maker, is not God and God alone who’ll decide? in the meantime, let’s humble ourselves and obey our Lord; let’s do the will of his Father in heaven.
God bless.

But what is the will of our Father in Heaven? You mention will = work. That’s not true at all.

In John 6 Christ tells us that the Father’s will is for us to believe in the one HE sent. Believe and have eternal life.

So then what does it mean to believe? Are works a part of believing? Absolutely. Believing produces good works. Can we ever fall away from believing? Yes again absolutely. But falling away doesn’t mean that you are permanently fallen away. You can repent and come back to the Lord so to speak. But you can fall away permanently if you so choose.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Funny, sometimes I think it would be easier to be Catholic. To have someone spell out everything for me and to know there’s a system in place to fix it when I mess up. I think it is harder to put your trust fully in Jesus. Kind of like the rich man and the kingdom of heaven. Jesus knew that the man relied on himself and his wealth for security, so He asked the man to give it up so he could fully rely on God. That was harder for the man to do, so he walked away.

Okay, I came and asked an honest question, but now we’re a bit off topic so I’m going to jump in and participate. . .

Actually, if you read the Old Testament, you will see that God has always desired structure and “a system in place to fix it when I mess up.” He ordained the tribe of Levi in the person of Aaron and his descendants to offer sacrifices to heaven, He made every provision necessary through His chosen priests and prophets for the people of Israel to come back to Himself when they “messed up.” He never asked anybody to leave that behind, but renewed it with the Christian Church through Jesus Christ and His Apostles.
I’m not saying you have to believe it’s the Catholic Church, and I’m sure as hell not saying that you shouldn’t believe it’s not the Catholic Church. I’m saying that you can’t throw out the God of the Old Testament when you get to the New one. He doesn’t change, but He does fulfill the Old Covenant with the New–there was a form of Confession in ancient Israel, and there’s a form of Confession now (though a strictly spiritual one, without animal sacrifice). There was a form of a passover meal in ancient Israel, and there is a form of a passover meal now (the Mass), though also more spiritual. Every sacrament of the Church is a fulfillment of some ritual of ancient Israel–I say “fulfillment” because Jesus Christ did not abolish, but fulfill. He is the center of every sacrament, He fulfilled and took the place of the symbols of the Old Covenant.

And there’s nothing easy about being Catholic. Our sins are just as real as any Protestants, the struggle is exactly the same, and I resent the implication that we ‘fake ourselves out’ in regard to forgiveness.

Isn’t the uncertainty a burden to you? It was to me.

I’m pretty sure Christ was burdened His whole life, and “no servant is greater than his Master.” So I’ll take it

(of course I’m saying that a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I hope you get my point)

 

[willingheart]

He ordained the tribe of Levi in the person of Aaron and his descendants to offer sacrifices to heaven, He made every provision necessary through His chosen priests and prophets for the people of Israel to come back to Himself when they “messed up.” He never asked anybody to leave that behind, but renewed it with the Christian Church through Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

And Jesus fulfilled the law by being the final sacrifice, once and for all, which gets back to your original question. Protestants believe that there is no more to be done - no further sacrifice to be made. “It is finished.” Our job is to accept and believe by turning away from self and toward God.

And there’s nothing easy about being Catholic. Our sins are just as real as any Protestants, the struggle is exactly the same, and I resent the implication that we ‘fake ourselves out’ in regard to forgiveness.

I meant no disrespect here. God knows the truly repentant heart from the “fakers.” I don’t presume to know.

 

[NDfan]

Okay, I came and asked an honest question, but now we’re a bit off topic so I’m going to jump in and participate. . .

Actually, if you read the Old Testament, you will see that God has always desired structure and “a system in place to fix it when I mess up.” He ordained the tribe of Levi in the person of Aaron and his descendants to offer sacrifices to heaven, He made every provision necessary through His chosen priests and prophets for the people of Israel to come back to Himself when they “messed up.” He never asked anybody to leave that behind, but renewed it with the Christian Church through Jesus Christ and His Apostles.
I’m not saying you have to believe it’s the Catholic Church, and I’m sure as hell not saying that you shouldn’t believe it’s not the Catholic Church. I’m saying that you can’t throw out the God of the Old Testament when you get to the New one. He doesn’t change, but He does fulfill the Old Covenant with the New–there was a form of Confession in ancient Israel, and there’s a form of Confession now (though a strictly spiritual one, without animal sacrifice). There was a form of a passover meal in ancient Israel, and there is a form of a passover meal now (the Mass), though also more spiritual. Every sacrament of the Church is a fulfillment of some ritual of ancient Israel–I say “fulfillment” because Jesus Christ did not abolish, but fulfill. He is the center of every sacrament, He fulfilled and took the place of the symbols of the Old Covenant.

And there’s nothing easy about being Catholic. Our sins are just as real as any Protestants, the struggle is exactly the same, and I resent the implication that we ‘fake ourselves out’ in regard to forgiveness.

I’m pretty sure Christ was burdened His whole life, and “no servant is greater than his Master.” So I’ll take it

(of course I’m saying that a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I hope you get my point)

Kephas this is a great post so I’d like to go back to your original post and refocus the thread.

Your original question was for Protestants to reconcile the notion of works and the requirement or non re-requirement of them as it relates to our salvation.

I think the the best way to answer this is to first understand that you can’t lump all Protestants into the discussion of faith+works because some protestants will flat out say works are not necessary. But I believe this represents a small percent of the protestant world and is more likely to be isolated to very specific sects.

Overall I don’t know any protestant that would disagree with the notion that good works are very important and in fact are a necessary part of our faith. The disgreement seems to come in when you say faith and performing good works. Somehow implying that the 2 are mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand but in the end Paul flat out tells us that we are saved by faith and not works lest we boast. But remember Paul is addressing Jews in this letter and wants to re-assure them that their works of the law as defined under the old covenant is not the pathway to GOD. It’s Faith in Christ. James compliments Paul by saying that Faith includes good works and takes it a step further by saying that Faith without works is a dead Faith.

But we need to be very careful by placing the parameter around saying good works are required because we can never answer the question of how much. This makes the notion of salvation questionable even to those who are loyal followers of Christ which is untrue. Christ guarantees our salvation by HIS work at the cross and not our works and is spelled out in scripture more than once in those terms. But to be a Christ follower means you take up your own cross. The life of a Christian is not easy as we read Paul telling us that he still struggled with his actions saying the very thing he didn’t want to do he ended up doing. Then he immediately thanks GOD for sending Christ because Paul knows HE paid the price for those shortcomings. But Paul also tells us contrary to what some may say that he is assured of his salvation if he finishes the race. Finishing the race means never falling away from your Faith. It’s the same as someone who is running a marathon. If they complete the race they are considered finishers. If not their time is not even reported and are listed as DNF. This may be too simplified but the point is the same.

But then we can’t imply that because someone is more passive with their works that somehow that translates into them falling away from their Faith. That judgement is not ours to make and can only be made by GOD who truly knows our heart. Someone who falls away from their Faith is someone that literally questions Christ and no longer accepts HIM as their savior.

PEACE

 

[John_Hendrix]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.

I am honestly wondering (and have been for years now) how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. Also, and this is just an afterthought, He tells a parable just a few verses before this about the talents. The men with 5 and 2 talents are rewarded because they went out and did something, and the third, who received only one talent, did nothing but know the master and what the master was like, and did not go out and do anything. It seems odd to me, then (and maybe I completely misunderstand "sola fide–if I do please explain it to me), that some Protestants believe that works hold no water in the eyes of God, and merit nothing–especially in light of verses 31ff. What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

If you are truly interested why not go to to a Fundamental Baptist Church and talk to the Pastor, we are happy to share our beliefs with all of God’s people.

As far as salvation by grace if it is not true then the the Bible is contradictory and therefore a worthless story book or a loose moral guide free to be interpreted to suit every individual. The Bible claims to be the word of God so it is correct or you are.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is a gift, that we are saved by grace, by the blood of the Lamb of God. To say something we have done has earned us any part of the price Christ paid for us is to deny the atonement.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

It was not the works of Abraham but his faith that justified him. He believed God would keep His promise to make him the father God nations though Issac and that God would raise Issac back up. If you consider the situation if God allowed Abraham to kill Issac and then not raised him up that would mean He was not God in the first place. Issac was a type of Christ and this probably took place exactly where God would sacrifice His own Son and raise Him 2000 years later. The ark was a type of Christ and there was nothing required to be saved from the flood but walk through the door. It was a gift the world rejected. Noah was justified by hi faith , not his works. Had He not believed God he would have never built the ark. Sadly the RCC and most of mainstream Protestantism as well has rejected Genesis as myth and the foundation of Christianity is destroyed.

Psa 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Mat 25 does not say we are saved by works. Those who are saved will feed his sheep.We do works because we are saved, not to get that way. Salvation by works is taught by the Mormon’s , JW’s, the Stoics etc. but we are given the gift of eternal life. God loved the world so much He gave us His only begotten Son, He did not make us a deal. I take your word that you are honestly wondering so consider this. The thief on the cross did not live a good life, He never visit those in prison , He never fed the sheep , all he did was confess his faith. But the greatest contradiction of all is the RCC’s own belief in Extreme Unction. I believe in deathbed confessions but you believe correct me if I am wrong} that the last rites will save even after death. Either way we both believe that a person who confesses just before they pass will be saved regardless of how they lived yet you claim works are necessary. So where is the contradiction? The Bible or you?

There is another parable in Matthew that confirms this.

Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

Nothing we can do can add to Christ’s sacrifice. We try to show our love through good works.

 

[emarc]

Yes, because that is what Jesus told us. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you are saved. (Not can be, or might be, if you do enough good.) If salvation depends in any part on our works, and if God will still decide our salvation based on those works, then why did Jesus die on the cross? What value was there in His sacrifice, if there is still more for us to do? And, as I’ve asked before, how much is enough?

Maybe a difference in thinking is this: In the church I grew up in, I used to hear that Christ died for our sins - our sins. I believed that, but I still thought that maybe I wasn’t good enough to go to heaven, and how would I know? When I finally understood that Christ died for my sins, in my place, for my redemption, it clicked. (Max Lucado makes the point that even if you were the only one, He still would have done it.) Maybe you all got that already, but that’s what made the difference to me. For anyone interested, it was Lucado’s book, He Chose the Nails, that helped me understand that point.

None whatsoever. Even Paul lamented doing things he did not want to do and not doing the things he should do. Yet, don’t we believe he was saved? I’ve heard it said that believers are not “sinless” they just “sin less.” It is a lifelong process of refinement. I’ve heard it compared to a new field. At first, the farmer goes in with big equipment and removes the really big boulders. Then he can go through with some workers and a truck to remove by hand the smaller rocks that are in the way of the plough. Then the plough can turn over the ground to reveal other rocks, and the workers go through again, and again, until the field is prepared. It’s how God works in our hearts. Who cannot testify to this in their own life? If we are not constantly being changed, then we have to ask why.

I agree with other posters who’ve said that works are a natural expression of God’s love within us. A true change of heart toward God and away from self, must express itself outward. Are there some who will profess belief but not really believe? Yes. But remember - man looks on the outer appearance, and God looks at the heart. He knows the difference.

You’re claiming w/ certitude that you’re saved, thus you imply that you have equal authority w/ God on this matter. Hmmm. Just dwell on this. When one says he believes (Rom 10:9), it’s a submission of will, a surrender. If one disobeys the will of the Father, you’re not believing in your heart. You can say Rom 10:9 a thousand times, but they could be meaningless. Yes, Jesus came to this world to offer his life as ransom for many (Matt 20:28) and because of our free will, many will not be saved; those who profess belief but refuse to submit. God gives us free will, we have a choice to worship him above all things and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. If we fail on this, can you say you’re saved, with certitude? Then, why did God emphasize on Love, why not on faith if faith alone can save us?
God bless.

 

[With_Questions]

And when is that moment?

The moment one is regenerated.

 

[John_Hendrix]

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab. I just want to make that clear.
Thanks

If you are truly interested why not go to to a Fundamental Baptist Church and talk to the Pastor, we are happy to share our beliefs with all of God’s people.

As far as salvation by grace if it is not true then the the Bible is contradictory and therefore a worthless story book or a loose moral guide free to be interpreted to suit every individual. The Bible claims to be the word of God so it is correct or you are.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is a gift, that we are saved by grace, by the blood of the Lamb of God. To say something we have done has earned us any part of the price Christ paid for us is to deny the atonement.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

It was not the works of Abraham but his faith that justified him. He believed God would keep His promise to make him the father of nations though Issac and that God would raise Issac back up.
If you consider the situation if God had allowed Abraham to kill Issac and then not raised him up that would mean He was not God in the first place. Issac was a type of Christ and this probably took place exactly where God would sacrifice His own Son and raise Him 2000 years later. The ark was a type of Christ and there was nothing required to be saved from the flood but walk through the door. It was a gift the world rejected. Noah was justified by his faith , not his works. Had He not believed God he would have never built the ark. Sadly the RCC and most of mainstream Protestantism as well has rejected Genesis as myth and the foundation of Christianity is destroyed.

Psa 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Mat 25 does not say we are saved by works. Those who are saved will feed his sheep.We do works because we are saved, not to get that way. Salvation by works is taught by the Mormon’s , JW’s, the Stoics etc. but we are given the gift of eternal life. God loved the world so much He gave us His only begotten Son, He did not make us a deal. I take your word that you are honestly wondering so consider this. The thief on the cross did not live a good life, He never visit those in prison , He never fed the sheep , all he did was confess his faith. But the greatest contradiction of all is the RCC’s own belief in Extreme Unction. I believe in deathbed confessions but you believe correct me if I am wrong} that the last rites will save even after death. Either way we both believe that a person who confesses just before they pass will be saved regardless of how they lived yet you claim works are necessary. So where is the contradiction? The Bible or you?

There is another parable in Matthew that confirms this.

Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

Nothing we can do can add to Christ’s sacrifice. We try to show our love through good works.I will take your word as a fellow Christian you did not intend to be holier than thou but please refrain from saying that Christians who are not Catholics say Christ does not take account of good works, He most certainly does. Works show your love for Christ and add to your heavenly reward. Works are an outward sign of an inward commitment.
But salvation is a free gift.

 

[emarc]

But what is the will of our Father in Heaven? You mention will = work. That’s not true at all.

In John 6 Christ tells us that the Father’s will is for us to believe in the one HE sent. Believe and have eternal life.

So then what does it mean to believe? Are works a part of believing? Absolutely. Believing produces good works. Can we ever fall away from believing? Yes again absolutely. But falling away doesn’t mean that you are permanently fallen away. You can repent and come back to the Lord so to speak. But you can fall away permanently if you so choose.

you mistyped, i hope not deliberately, what i wrote. i wrote DO=WORK (not will=work).
The will of the Father is for us to worship him above all things and for us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. These involve our active participation… no ifs or buts on this. He gives us free will to submit to his will or to disobey him. He wants all to go to heaven with him, that’s why he sent his only Son to this world, not to condemn this world but that the world may be saved (Jn 3:17) but he allows many to go somewhere else because he respects our will.
God bless.

 

[NDfan]

you mistyped, i hope not deliberately, what i wrote. i wrote DO=WORK (not will=work).
The will of the Father is for us to worship him above all things and for us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. These involve our active participation… no ifs or buts on this. He gives us free will to submit to his will or to disobey him. He wants all to go to heaven with him, that’s why he sent his only Son to this world, not to condemn this world but that the world may be saved (Jn 3:17) but he allows many to go somewhere else because he respects our will.
God bless.

Actually what you typed is: but ONLY those who DO the will of my Father in heaven." (do = work)

I associated the do the will of my Father in Heaven with the do in (do=work). That’s why I typed will=work. You made it seem like the the will of the Father is to do work. Again the will of the Father in Heaven is to believe in the one HE sent.

PEACE

 

[PJM]

:bounce:

This is in no way a mockery, a challenge, or a holier-than-thou jab.

I am honestly wondering how Protestants who believe that “faith alone” without works is what saves us reconcile that belief with the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-45. It seems to be very straightforward that Jesus is telling His disciples that good works can (and do) gain access into eternal salvation just as much as faith. … What makes Paul’s words about “faith alone” more important than Christ’s words about acts of charity meriting salvation?

Thanks

Your question ask more than what meets the eye:whacky:

Pretend your age 9 or 10, and someone gives you a HUGE box of chocolates. Mom advises you not to eat too many because they can make you sick. What are the odds of listening to her?

They believe it not because it’s biblical, it most certainly is not:tsktsk:

Check this out:yup:

Justification and Salvation

Rom.5: 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Gal. 2: 16 yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified…… I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

Rom. 5: 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood

CATHOLIC EVIDENCE for salvation through Faith with works.

Gal, 3: 27 for, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism is a requirement unto salvation. It is manifested as a work of Faith, Hope and Love. John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Rom 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (We are being told that faith by itself does not guarantee our salvation)

Rom. 2: 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. ** For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Speaking here of the Commandments.)**

Rom. 6: 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions….** For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace**.

**James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So, Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”

**Mt. 12: 35 …for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Heb. 6: 9 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work, and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do

1st. Cor. 6: 9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

We know of course that the “original law,” the Law of the Covenant, with Moses, The Ten Commandments, were what Yahweh -God, issued and expected everyone to follow. By the time of our Blessed Lord’s ministry on earth, they had been expanded as “THE (Torah) LAW” to over three hundred ADDITIONAL obligations, most of which had little or nothing to do with God’s original intent. Yet they were taught “as the law (of the Covenant).”

What is being said in all of these (Justification Only) passages is that one’s obedience to “the priest expanded law” was not essential to ones salvation in the eyes of God. Jesus without condemning these “RULES,” rather only saying, their fulfillment, did little or nothing to assist in ones salvation clearly stated that “the law,” was separate from the Covenant of Salvation. Obeying the Commandments YES, obeying “the law,” yes too, but not effecting the Covenant, Good, but not essential.

Clearly and indisputably, God expects more from His us than ONLY to believe in Him. Of course we must have Great Faith! We must also be baptized, we must obey His Commandments. We must through our works put Faith, Hope and Love into action. The degree that we are successful in these endeavors will determine our Salvation. Thus salvation is an ongoing process.

One who assumes that all that is required by Almighty God for our salvation is Faith without works would be of the mind that our life’s conduct is of no consequence, and our personal decisions can rule. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If this were true, there would be no need for the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love. They are not simply suggestions they are the directions we need to live a happy, fruitful and spiritually rewarding life in accordance to God’s plan for our salvation.

 

[mark_a]

WHY should we do good works? Should we do good works IN ORDER TO be saved, or BECAUSE we are saved?
I say the latter, because I believe that it is what the Bible teaches:

Works for me as long as the works get done.

But the problem lies in the rejection of works by some Protestant teachings. I know a few “Christian” people who will not do good works because they feel there is no need.

The “Faith alone” theology is usually a gyration of Paul’s writings. Rarely will you see the letters of James, John, Jude, or Peter contorted into something that supports “faith alone”.

Important teachings need to be simplified for the common Christian. An example of that is Catholic “faith and works” theology.

 

[greystoke]

Nah, you go too far. I find Luther as morbidly fascinating as the next catholic, but most protestants alive today know nothing of Luther. They honestly put their trust in God and erroneously believe that God left us here with nothing but an inspired book (and a notoriously inconsistant Holy Spirit) to help us figure life out.

I think you are right. No wonder I’m so confused …

 

[greystoke]

http://www.oh-snap.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Lol. We’re still on the same side. Just because we have to be on the side of the angels, doesn’t mean we have to agree about everything…

 

[mark_a]

Lol. We’re still on the same side. Just because we have to be on the side of the angels, doesn’t mean we have to agree about everything…

Why is that guy beating a dead camel?

 

[willingheart]

You’re claiming w/ certitude that you’re saved, thus you imply that you have equal authority w/ God on this matter.

No, I only claim His promises for me. Jesus told us, “I tell you the truth, whever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 Jesus said this is true.

Other writers confirm that we have assurance. Isaiah said, “The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance forever.” (32:17) Where does the righteousness come from? Jesus. Isaiah prophesied about the coming of the Messiah.

Likewise, Hebrews tells us, “let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” (10:22) And a very familiar verse which begins the “faith chapter” of Hebrews: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”

And I understand about free will, too. We have to make the choice to accept God’s grace and will for our lives. Otherwise, we continue to live for ourselves.

 

[emarc]

Actually what you typed is: but ONLY those who DO the will of my Father in heaven." (do = work)

I associated the do the will of my Father in Heaven with the do in (do=work). That’s why I typed will=work. You made it seem like the the will of the Father is to do work. Again the will of the Father in Heaven is to believe in the one HE sent.

PEACE

Jesus said this, not me. so, you may have to debate with him on this.
God bless.