An honest question from a Catholic

[emarc]

No, I only claim His promises for me. Jesus told us, “I tell you the truth, whever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 Jesus said this is true.

Other writers confirm that we have assurance. Isaiah said, “The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance forever.” (32:17) Where does the righteousness come from? Jesus. Isaiah prophesied about the coming of the Messiah.

Likewise, Hebrews tells us, “let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” (10:22) And a very familiar verse which begins the “faith chapter” of Hebrews: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”

And I understand about free will, too. We have to make the choice to accept God’s grace and will for our lives. Otherwise, we continue to live for ourselves.

No offense but my original question to you was, “Can you claim with certitude if you are saved; and you answered me: “Yes, because this is what Jesus told us.” you now claim No, and it’s okay w/ me that you want to change your answer. But this is the heart of the issue of “faith alone doctrine. God gives us the free will - to live our lives to what we publicly profess w/ our mouth that we believe…. when one believes he has to do the will of the Father in heaven, not merely say Lord, Lord for you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. To do God’s will is to participate in action. James 2:14; What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
:18Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Please dwell on this before you go deep in misinterpretation.
God bless.

 

[LutheranDK]

Why is that guy beating a dead camel?

It’s a camel?
Looks like a horse to me

 

[LutheranDK]

Works for me as long as the works get done.

But the problem lies in the rejection of works by some Protestant teachings. I know a few “Christian” people who will not do good works because they feel there is no need.

And that is the exact attitude I adressed as un-Christian in an earlier post

The “Faith alone” theology is usually a gyration of Paul’s writings. Rarely will you see the letters of James, John, Jude, or Peter contorted into something that supports “faith alone”.

Important teachings need to be simplified for the common Christian. An example of that is Catholic “faith and works” theology.

I agree, AND I disagree.
I agree, because some people just mindlessly say: “We’re saved by faith, amen!” and don’t think about why they say this, or what supports it.
Now, I DISAGREE, because I could just as easily claim that the “faith and works”-teaching is taking James out of context - and that is precisely what I actually do claim.
I also disagree, because I believe that the Gospel according to John is very, very clear where it speaks on the matter of salvation: It is through faith. It does not use the WORDS “faith alone”, but I would claim that the sentiment is obvious.

And finally, I disagree that the “faith and works”-theory is a neccessary (typo?) simplification. From where I’m sitting, it holds people captive. Because when have I done enough to have worked my salvation? How many good deeds does it take to outweigh an evil one? Etc. The certainty of salvation of the believer which is rather obvious, IMHO, throughout the NT, is lost.
And that “enslaves” people.
It is this sentiment which at least Lutherans warn against, and maintain that salvation is through Faith, which then produces good works, and NOT by Faith AND works. Our works have no “salvific” (is that a word?) value per se - only as visible fruits of the salvation we already have.

It might seem like I’m splitting hairs here, but I believe that it is ESSENTIAL to get the order of things straight.

LDK

 

[willingheart]

No offense but my original question to you was, “Can you claim with certitude if you are saved; and you answered me: “Yes, because this is what Jesus told us.” you now claim No, and it’s okay w/ me that you want to change your answer.

For the record, I have not changed my answer. I still claim certainty. I was objecting to the part where you said that I assumed to have the same authority as God. To that, I was answering “no.”
emarc;4704328:

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Please dwell on this before you go deep in misinterpretation.

We have already said, over and over, that a sincere faith does produce works. The difference is whether the works contribute to the salvation or not.

Let’s refrain from the name-calling. I have treated you with respect.
Eph. 4:2

 

[willingheart]

Because when have I done enough to have worked my salvation? How many good deeds does it take to outweigh an evil one? Etc.

I am still waiting for someone to answer these questions, too.

It might seem like I’m splitting hairs here, but I believe that it is ESSENTIAL to get the order of things straight.

LDK

You’re right - it is essential. There is a very significant difference between believing that works contribute to salvation and believing that works are a product of salvation. Because in the first case, one might be tempted to rely on themselves and their works, where in the second case, you can only rely on Jesus.

 

[PJM]

If one walks in good faith, that’s what’s important. Being anxious about refuting what somebody else says is contrary to a spirit of charity. Do not judge. I would think that we should also recall the parable of the workers in the vineyard: those who were recruited last were paid as much as those who were working all day. The same goes for the parable of the prodigal son. The Father received the scoundrel with great joy while he took the other son for granted. The point is: God is free to do as He chooses and we should be grateful for his having chosen us from all eternity to give us the gift of faith and salvation. We cannot buy God with good works, nor can we impose on Him the obligation to admit us into Heaven.** We have no right to claim anything,**

Thanks

Welcome dear friend,

But your good ententions will not get you to heaven. Jesus explains:

Justification and Salvation

Gal. 2: 16 yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified….. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

Rom. 5: 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood

CATHOLIC EVIDENCE for salvation through Faith with works.

Gal, 3: 27 for, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism is a requirement unto salvation. It is manifested as a work of Faith, Hope and Love. John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Rom 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (We are being told that faith by itself does not guarantee our salvation)

Rom. 2: 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Speaking here of the Commandments.)

Rom. 6: 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions…. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

**James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So, Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” **

Mt. 12: 35 …for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Heb. 6: 9 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work, and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do

1st. Cor. 6: 9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

We know of course that the “original law,” the Law of the Covenant, with Moses, The Ten Commandments, were what Yahweh -God, issued and expected everyone to follow. By the time of our Blessed Lord’s ministry on earth, they had been expanded as “THE (Torah) LAW” to over three hundred ADDITIONAL obligations, most of which had little or nothing to do with God’s original intent. Yet they were taught “as the law (of the Covenant).”

What is being said in all of these (Justification Only) passages is that one’s obedience to “the priest expanded law” was not essential to ones salvation in the eyes of God. Jesus without condemning these “RULES,” rather only saying, their fulfillment, did little or nothing to assist in ones salvation clearly stated that “the law,” was separate from the Covenant of Salvation. Obeying the Commandments YES, obeying “the law,” yes too, but not effecting the Covenant, Good, but not essential.

**Clearly and indisputably, God expects more from His us than ONLY to believe in Him**. Of course we must have Great Faith!  We must also be baptized, we must obey His Commandments. We must through our works put Faith, Hope and Love into action. The degree that we are successful in these endeavors will determine our Salvation. Thus salvation is an ongoing process.

One who assumes that all that is required by Almighty God for our salvation is Faith without works would be of the mind that our life’s conduct is of no consequence, and our personal decisions can rule. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If this were true, there would be no need for the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love. They are not simply suggestions they are the directions we need to live a happy, fruitful and spiritually rewarding life in accordance to God’s plan for our salvation.

 

[mark_a]

Now, I DISAGREE, because I could just as easily claim that the “faith and works”-teaching is taking James out of context - and that is precisely what I actually do claim.
I also disagree, because I believe that the Gospel according to John is very, very clear where it speaks on the matter of salvation: It is through faith. It does not use the WORDS “faith alone”, but I would claim that the sentiment is obvious.

The Catholic view, as well as some Lutherans’ view, is that we are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace through faith.

And finally, I disagree that the “faith and works”-theory is a neccessary (typo?) simplification. From where I’m sitting, it holds people captive. Because when have I done enough to have worked my salvation? How many good deeds does it take to outweigh an evil one? Etc. The certainty of salvation of the believer which is rather obvious, IMHO, throughout the NT, is lost.
And that “enslaves” people.

“Faith and works” can be taken to extremes just as easily as “Faith alone” can be. Among the extremists, I’ll take the do-gooders.

It is this sentiment which at least Lutherans warn against, and maintain that salvation is through Faith, which then produces good works, and NOT by Faith AND works. Our works have no “salvific” (is that a word?) value per se - only as visible fruits of the salvation we already have.

It might seem like I’m splitting hairs here, but I believe that it is ESSENTIAL to get the order of things straight.

Right. That’s why we teach “faith and works” not “works and faith”.

I don’t see how to derive “faith alone” from Jesus’ command to follow the two great commandments.

 

[NDfan]

Jesus said this, not me. so, you may have to debate with him on this.
God bless.

I don’t have to debate anything with Christ. I’m quoting HIM directly from John 6.

 

[mark_a]

It’s a camel?
Looks like a horse to me

It looks like a camel’s head on a horse’s body. Maybe its a hormel.

 

[willingheart]

We must through our works put Faith, Hope and Love into action. The degree that we are successful in these endeavors will determine our Salvation.

So, what “degree” is needed for success? How much “action” does it take?

…the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love. They are not simply suggestions they are the directions we need to live a happy, fruitful and spiritually rewarding life in accordance to God’s plan for our salvation.

Jesus is God’s plan for salvation.

 

[PJM]

Yes, because that is what Jesus told us. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you are saved. (Not can be, or might be, if you do enough good.) If salvation depends in any part on our works, and if God will still decide our salvation based on those works, then why did Jesus die on the cross? What value was there in His sacrifice, if there is still more for us to do? And, as I’ve asked before, how much is enough?

Christ died on the Cross to effect our Redeemption, which is not a synomous word for “Our Salvation.”

By His Glorious Death Jesus unlocked the gates to Heaven, thus making it possible for us to attain Salvation. But His act did not assure that it alone assures everyones Salvation, which, by the way is something even you profess to belief.

How, by insisting that “we have Faith.” That dear friend is a "good work, but not the only one required.

John 3:5 "5* Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. "

Mt. 19:16 "And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Thise are the words of Christ, not just Catholic Opinion. And they are WORKS.

[QIOTE] Maybe a difference in thinking is this: In the church I grew up in, I used to hear that Christ died for our sins - our sins. I believed that, but I still thought that maybe I wasn’t good enough to go to heaven, and how would I know?

My dear friend in Christ, if you were an informed, practcing RC, you would not have to wonder. You could know with certitude as I do.

John 20:"21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.** 23* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ** Thus starting the Catholic Sacramnet of known forgiveness.

When I finally understood that Christ died for my sins, in my place, for my redemption, it clicked. (Max Lucado makes the point that even if you were the only one, He still would have done it.) Maybe you all got that already, but that’s what made the difference to me. For anyone interested, it was Lucado’s book, He Chose the Nails, that helped me understand that point.

So let me understand what your saying…

lets assume that we both believe in Jesus and profess him as Lord. We are saved by doing only that?

So you steal a candy bar, and I murder someone, and we die on the same day, both having faith that we did everything we had to do. Do we get side by side seats is heaven?

Can you agree that God is “everything good,” and not only that but possesses all the of these attributes to the point of perfection?

So God is ALL… good, loving, merciful, powerful, knowing, kind, ECT. Right?

So let me ask another question. Is being “fair,” as in justly part of being good? Of course it is. God id, and ahs to be, must be ALL JUST! If He were not then He would not be God!

So go back to your candy bar and my murder, He can’t treat us the same. Impossible!

Even Paul lamented doing things he did not want to do and not doing the things he should do. Yet, don’t we believe he was saved? I’ve heard it said that believers are not “sinless” they just “sin less.”

Dear friend, your lifes experiences support this?:whacky: Certainly, Christians, who obey God’s Commandments, take God at His Word and obey what we are told in the Bible, and practice Charity, do sin less often. But my friend it is because of the grace
manifested by these good works, that allow us to merit them, through the Sacrifice of Christ.

There is a lot more, but I’m out of time.

Love and prayers

 

[emarc]

For the record, I have not changed my answer. I still claim certainty. I was objecting to the part where you said that I assumed to have the same authority as God. To that, I was answering “no.”

We have already said, over and over, that a sincere faith does produce works. The difference is whether the works contribute to the salvation or not.

Let’s refrain from the name-calling. I have treated you with respect.
Eph. 4:2

James 2:20 “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” sorry not my words.
God bless.

 

[Chancellare]

The moment one is regenerated.

But you’re just running in circles because LutheranDK already admitted the logical conclusion that failing to change to do good deeds one is not saved!
originally quoted by Chancellare:

Assuming a person is already baptized and accepts Jesus personally as his Lord and Savior, but does not believe in good deeds for some reason and shows no effort to do so, is he saved?

To which LutheranDK admitted:
originally quoted by LutheranDK:

I would ask what Jesus he believes in. It certainly is not the Jesus we read about in the Bible, and therefore, he is not a Christian at all → not saved.

Therefore it shows that ‘faith alone’ leads to a circular argument!

 

[LutheranDK]

It looks like a camel’s head on a horse’s body. Maybe its a hormel.

Or a corse

 

[manualman]

Clearly I’m falling behind and don’t have time to read all the responses. But I have a parable for the protestants:

Once there was a hiker. He loved the mountains and hiking through them. One day as he was crossing a snow field, the snow and ice gave way and he fell into a crevasse. Another couple of hikers saw it happen and came over to help. They threw rope down into the hole and told him “You need to tie this rope around yourself and hold your body off the jagged ice while we pull you up!” So the fallen hiker secured himself with the rope and shifted his body as needed while they pulled him up and out of the hole.

Can you imagine being those rescuers and having the guy call up: “I can’t do that! If I tie it to myself and keep the rope off the ice, I’ll be able to brag about how I rescued myself from this hole. You guys deserve all the credit, so I’m just going to wait here until you come up with a way to haul me up all by yourselves!”

To me, that’s about as plausible as claiming that a man can take credit for earning salvation by the works he does. It isn’t a matter of partial “earning” of salvation. It is a matter of COOPERATING with our Savior/Rescuer. In our situation, doing good works is like tieing ourselves up and holding the rope in place. The works aren’t salvific, they merely each are an acceptance of and cooperation with Grace.

 

[LutheranDK]

But you’re just running in circles because LutheranDK already admitted the logical conclusion that failing to change to do good deeds one is not saved!

To which LutheranDK admitted:

Therefore it shows that ‘faith alone’ leads to a circular argument!

I can’t really see the circular argument here?

What Faith Alone claims, is this:

Salvation is by Faith Alone.
However! True faith bears fruits = works. If one has not works, he has not true Faith. If one does not have true Faith, one is not saved.

It is the Faith that saves, not the Faith AND the works which are the fruits of Faith. How is that circular?

 

[LutheranDK]

Clearly I’m falling behind and don’t have time to read all the responses. But I have a parable for the protestants:

Once there was a hiker. He loved the mountains and hiking through them. One day as he was crossing a snow field, the snow and ice gave way and he fell into a crevasse. Another couple of hikers saw it happen and came over to help. They threw rope down into the hole and told him “You need to tie this rope around yourself and hold your body off the jagged ice while we pull you up!” So the fallen hiker secured himself with the rope and shifted his body as needed while they pulled him up and out of the hole.

Can you imagine being those rescuers and having the guy call up: “I can’t do that! If I tie it to myself and keep the rope off the ice, I’ll be able to brag about how I rescued myself from this hole. You guys deserve all the credit, so I’m just going to wait here until you come up with a way to haul me up all by yourselves!”

To me, that’s about as plausible as claiming that a man can take credit for earning salvation by the works he does. It isn’t a matter of partial “earning” of salvation. It is a matter of COOPERATING with our Savior/Rescuer. In our situation, doing good works is like tieing ourselves up and holding the rope in place.

I see things differently, as you might imagine
The man tied the rope around him, and got pulled up, as a result of his trust (aka faith ) in his rescuers.
He was, therefore, for all intents and purposes, already rescued when he believed that they wanted to help him, and the action he took as a consequence thereof was the natural sequitur of his belief.

His not wanting to do anything at all is not what Sola Fide is about.

 

[With_Questions]

Therefore it shows that ‘faith alone’ leads to a circular argument!:

Are you saying that what we believe is false, or that faith alone is not the best title for what we believe?

Now my 8th grade English teacher taught me that you must have a sentence with a noun and a verb to express a complete thought. “Faith alone” does not have a verb. Therefore, without any definition, it is not a complete thought and therefore is meaningless.

So myself and others are attempting to define what we mean when we say “faith alone”.

Now if you want to debate whether what we are defining is Scriptural, we can have this discussion.

Also if you want to debate whether “faith alone” is the best title for what we are saying, we can also have that discussion. I for one am not that interested in discussing how well a title fits its definition.

But please do not respond with this drivel (I know this is somebody else:

James 2:20 “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” sorry not my words.

…and then totally dismiss what we are saying as “faith alone is false”.

Because this is defining faith alone with **your definition and then shooting it down. I think the term for this is strawman.

Our definitions of faith alone are well aware of the book of James and allow for this and other Scriptures you may bring to the table.

Note: I for one would be happier with the title “living faith alone”. However under our definition of “faith alone” the adjective “living” would be a redundancy.

 

[John_Hendrix]

God gives us free will, we have a choice to worship him above all things and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. If we fail on this, can you say you’re saved, with certitude? Then, why did God emphasize on Love, why not on faith if faith alone can save us?

God bless.

The Bible is crystal clear that we can know we are saved.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This claim that you cannot know is questioning God’s word. Why ask why? Like the beautiful hymn says.

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey

The Muslims live in fear because they have only one way to know, to die in Jihad. Mohammad did not know. Christians can.

 

[Chancellare]

I can’t really see the circular argument here?

What Faith Alone claims, is this:

Salvation is by Faith Alone.
However! True faith bears fruits = works. If one has not works, he has not true Faith. If one does not have true Faith, one is not saved.

It is the Faith that saves, not the Faith AND the works which are the fruits of Faith. How is that circular?

I see your confusion and it’s my fault.

I should have used the word that I meant to say and it should be:

“Therefore the concept of ‘regeneration as a single event’ leads to circular argument.”