An honest question from a Catholic

[emarc]

The Bible is crystal clear that we can know we are saved.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This claim that you cannot know is questioning God’s word. Why ask why? Like the beautiful hymn says.

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey

The Muslims live in fear because they have only one way to know, to die in Jihad. Mohammad did not know. Christians can.

In Phil 1:29; “For to you has been granted, for the sake of Christ, not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.” Remember even the devil believe in Jesus.
2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

God bless.

 

[With_Questions]

I see your confusion and it’s my fault.

I should have used the word that I meant to say and it should be:

“Therefore the concept of ‘regeneration as a single event’ leads to circular argument.”

I think you were answering me.

But I totally miss this circular argument thing too.

 

[mark_a]

And finally, I disagree that the “faith and works”-theory is a neccessary (typo?) simplification. From where I’m sitting, it holds people captive. Because when have I done enough to have worked my salvation? How many good deeds does it take to outweigh an evil one? Etc. The certainty of salvation of the believer which is rather obvious, IMHO, throughout the NT, is lost.
And that “enslaves” people.

By the way, there was at one time in the first millinium a sort of “works alone” theology that was declared heresy by the Church.

Can anyone remember the name of the heresy?

 

[John_Hendrix]

I see your confusion and it’s my fault.

I should have used the word that I meant to say and it should be:

“Therefore the concept of ‘regeneration as a single event’ leads to circular argument.”

Perhaps a short refresher course in logic would be beneficial.

Begging the Question (a.k.a. Circular Reasoning, Petitio Principii)

Circular reasoning occurs when the conclusion of an argument is contained in one of its premises. To the right is Sparky doing an interpretive dance of this fallacy. Another example:

1. The Gospels contain several prophecies of the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple.
2. Any supposed prophecy of an event that actually occurred was probably written in hindsight.
3. The Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem (including the Temple) in 70 A.D. (i.e. Mat 23:37, 38; Mark 13:1-3).
Therefore, the Gospels were probably written after 70 A.D.

The argument should be rejected because premise 2 is in essence a generalization of the supposed conclusion. The person making the argument is said to “beg the question.” Anything can be “proven” with circular arguments. That is, it is not really proven.

Proclaiming a cause and effect relationship such as works that result from faith is not in any way a circular argument. It does not beg the question. Many non Christians believe that they are saved by being nice to dogs and old people.

Helping old ladies cross the street is the act of a nice person.
Robbers help old ladies across the street to rob them
Robbers are nice people.

 

[John_Hendrix]

In Phil 1:29; “For to you has been granted, for the sake of Christ, not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.” Remember even the devil believe in Jesus.
2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

God

bless.

The Bible cannot contradict itself and that seems to contradict John 3:16 , and many others, for instance

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That is crystal clear plus we have the thief on the cross , the parable of the workers who received the same reward in the 11th hour and the RCC’s teaching on extreme unction.
What good is a deathbed confession if works and baptism are necessary? Are the priests lying to trick people into thinking they are not going to hell? What about the words of Jesus to the thief? What of John 3;16, Eph 2:8-9 and many others? Only 2 possibilities exist, you are misunderstanding or the Bible is untrue.

There is nothing gray about salvation by grace so the only logical conclusion is you misunderstand .

Is that possible? Considering the horrible conclusion otherwise let’s take an honest look.

We need to find what work out refers to as it is a bit gray.

Fear usually means respect for God in the Bible so why have you automatically assigned it the modern meaning? Have you ever considered that ?

Psa 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Psa 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psa 36:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD. The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

That kind of changes the meaning when fear is seen that way.

They are being told to do something that they did while the apostle was there but even more so. That seems a bit odd if the purpose of the verse is to teach that we are saved as the pagan Stoics were , by works , does it not ?

Now comes a major point, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses , Mormons etc, who share this interpretation , never add the next verse .

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Personally I think this is a contrivance by those who wish to sell a private agenda, not God’s word. Let’ put it all together.

Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When you read it in context it sounds very different. God is working in you sort of nullifies the importance of working yourself , does it not?

Why should one should fear God if in fact God was in me to work out His will in me. Why should I fear? Was He not going to turn all things to my good? (Rom. 8:28)

If you are open minded and honest with yourself it appears that the groups who use this interpretation are instilling fear into their members. I can see how a person looking for a contradiction could see one but I am rejoicing that my creator is working His will in me ,a worthless sinner. To think I am being used by the God of creation, my tears are from joy, not fear.

Still it does say fear and trembling . The Greek word translated ‘fear’ can equally well mean ‘reverence’ or ‘awe’ or even ‘respect,’ but what about the ‘trembling.’

Surely the same Spirit who inspired Paul to write to Timothy that ‘God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind’ could not also have meant us to live our entire lives in a state of nervous terror.

Now we come to a good reason that the group who use this verse to generate fear of damnation 'guide" the studies of their flock. A little bit of scholarship , or at least a searchable digital bible :}, and voila! The answer appears! God is not the author of confusion!
He told us to study to be approved!

Co 7:14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.
2Co 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, **how with fear and trembling ye received him. **

Not even the Pope is going to try and con you into believing this means they were afraid of Titus!

So what the verse is saying is be diligent in my absence doing the work of the Lord, the faith that brings you salvation that God may use you for His purpose.

That changes the meaning completely , the contradiction is no longer there, God is faithful, praised be His Holy name!

 

[PJM]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is a gift, that we are saved by grace, by the blood of the Lamb of God. **To say something we have done has earned us any part of the price Christ paid for us is to deny the atonement./**QUOTE]

Baptism and obeying the 10 Commandments are essential to salvation. Gook works such as these "permit us through the merits of Christ Death, to participate in the possibility of Salvation. Redeemption and Salvation are not synomous terms. Redemption was wrought by Christ Death, and opening the locked gates of heaven. We must accept His OFFER of Salvation, through works.

Dear friend in Christ, as one so well versed in God’s holy Word, no doubt you have also come across these verses also…

Jn. 3:55 "Jesus answered, **“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” **

Mt. 19:17 17 "And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death”

2 Tim…3:“16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Rom. 2: 12 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom. 8: 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So, Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. … Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit are dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Mt. 12: 35 I tell you, on the Day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Heb. 5: 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Heb. 6: 9 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work, and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.

**1st. Cor. 6: 9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? **Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

If you will go back and review all of the passages used in support of Justification by Faith alone, you will discover that some of them make reference to “the law.” Even those, which do not specifically speak of “the law,” implicitly, reference it.

We know of course that the “original law,” the Law of the Covenant, with Moses, The Ten Commandments, were what Yahweh -God, issued and expected everyone to follow. By the time of our Blessed Lord’s ministry on earth, they had been expanded as “THE (Torah) LAW” to over three hundred ADDITIONAL obligations, most of which had little or nothing to do with God’s original intent. This was done over time to add authority to teaching, thought by the priest, to be for benefit of the Jewish nation. Many of them were good, some even necessary, but they were NOT part of the Covenant relationship with God. Yet they were taught “as the law (of the Covenant).”

What is being said in all of these (Justification Only) passages is that one’s obedience to “the priest expanded law” was not essential to ones salvation in the eyes of God.

1st. John 3: Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who keep his commandments abide in him and he in them.

One who assumes that all that is required by Almighty God for our salvation is Faith without works would be of the mind that our life’s conduct is of no consequence, and our personal decisions can rule. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If this were true, there would be no need for the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There are two other acpects of this that I want to discuss.

First, is it possible that there is a part of doing good works that aids in salvation? How many of us have heard that idle hands are the devil’s workshop? When we are focused on proclaiming AND living the Christian life, it leaves less room for sin.

Second, does it matter to the conversation if we see a separation between justification, sanctification, and salvation?

merit is a not a ground of justification. Not = not. It means not, no, none, not any. If people can’t tell the difference between works as a foundation for justification & works as a result of justification, they have reading difficulties. our works are nort ever a foundation for justification. The justification of the wicked is purely, only, completely, solely, merely by grace.​

 

[PJM]

Dear friends,

I fear what we have here in our discussion of Salvation by Faith Alone or in the 2000-year Old Catholic teaching, of Faith as proven and practiced through works is a failure to communicate.

We have on countless OP Threads replied to non-Catholic Protestant Theology that Faith is the only requirement to Salvation. Meaning Christ has already done all that is necessary. It’s interesting that the position held, seems to be that it is “not only Christ Sacrifice on the Cross, but belief in the same, that “assures one’s salvation.” Friend, “Faith” is a “Work!”

We have provided Bible Quotes that make clear your position is factually anti-biblical. The common response is not to acknowledge receipt of this information, and to gloss over that it even exists.

One wonders if there might be some intellectual dishonesty in this tactic? If you hold the single truth, then you should NOT be afraid to be challenged on the validity of that truth to see if it withstands the evidence, wisdom and logic of the current time? There seems little opportunity, and willingness to discover truth.

Pope Benedict shared this profound thought (paraphrased): There can’t be your truth and my truth, or there would be NO truth, which is THE TRUTH.

Can we agree that we cannot know the mind of God? Isaiah 55: 8-9

We can get a glimpse of the working of God’s Mind and Heart, by understanding God’s Nature, which is and has to be Good. Another truth we can know, is that whatever attributes God possesses, God must possess them to a much higher degree than we can. **God is Perfect, and possesses every Good attribute to it’s Highest Perfection. **

What are some of these attributes that God possesses to their Perfection? God is All Good, Wise, Knowing, Loving, Kind, Powerful, Merciful, Generous and of course All Just (fair). God being God, the perfection of goodness, is and must be in each and every one of these manifestations of His Love.

We Christians are quick to acknowledge the attributes of God that we are comfortable with, but naturally tend to, at least, a little, to gloss over the fact that Yahweh God in the Old Testament was feared, more than loved.

The Hebrew relationship with Yahweh-God was a fearful one. God was quick to exercise His right for Just- Vengeance. (Deut. 32:35, Rom. 12: 19, Heb. 10:30.) But time and time again He relented, showed His Compassion and Merciful Love, and gave them another opportunity. **But first, He punished them with Just retribution. **

Fulton Scheen, points out in his book: ”The Imitation of Christ” that from God calling to Adam in the garden; “Where are you?” (Gen. 3:9), to Saving Noah, to Abram, changing his name to Abraham, and making him the Father of His chosen people, to Moses, the Prophets, Judges, and Kings like David and Solomon, right through to His Apostles “follow Me and I will make you fishers of men.” (Mt. 4:19.) **To the present day, Christ calls us, Mt, 16: 24 **“Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

” It is the very issue of God Justice, that is the stumbling block to the truth about Salvation and Justification.

Webster’s Dictionary definitions… Proves that “Redemption and Salvation” have different meanings.

Redemption, “to redeem -the act, process, or an instance of redeeming “

Our Blessed Lord’s Sacrificial Death the Cross (dare I use this word?) “Only” makes Heaven possible, and reverses the most notable effect of the Sin of Adam and Eve, access to Heaven is now possible.

Salvation: ““1 a: deliverance from the power and effects of sin b: the agent or means that effects salvation 3 a: preservation from destruction or failure b: deliverance from danger or difficulty”

Both are Necessary!

At this juncture it seems prudent to ask ourselves why, in all of God’s awesome Creations, are God Himself, The Angels and humanity blessed and gifted with “intellects and free-wills?” Surely God had something in mind, in bestowing these gifts upon and within us!

Zecharich 8:1, Exodus 34:14 and Psalm 79:5 explain God’s Jealously. “How long, O LORD? Wilt thou be angry forever? Will thy jealous wrath burn like fire?

God’s desire to have a permanent and Personal Relationship with His Created Humanity, which flows from unfathomable Love, that permits Divine Justice to INSIST, and require, that we Love Him in return, not only for His many gifts, but also for God’s many Sacrifices.

2nd. Cor. 6:1 Working together with him, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. For he says, “At the acceptable time I have listened to you, and helped you on the day of salvation.” Now is the acceptable time; Now is the day of salvation, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, labors, hunger; by purity, knowledge, forbearance, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love, truthful speech, and the power of God; in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, **and yet are true;**as dying, and behold we live; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

2 Tim. 4: 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead. Preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching”