An honest question on Belief

[ThinkingFree]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form - I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?
2. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?
3. How active were your guardians in their faith?
4. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

As for background : I am a very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief). I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

---

I am unsure if this falls neatly within the accepted threading format. I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect. I do feel like the intent of this request is valid, even if I may not be so eloquently or knowledgeable on the subject to correctly state my intentions.

---

P.S. - I am hoping that it is possible to have discussion on thought of theism [edited], so long as it is conducted in a respectful, non-pointed manner. Is there any merit to this hope?

 

[davidv]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form - I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?
2. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?
3. How active were your guardians in their faith?
4. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

As for background : I am very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief). I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

---

I am unsure if this falls neatly within the accepted threading format. I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect. I do feel like the intent of this request is valid, even if I may not be so eloquently or knowledgeable on the subject to correctly state my intentions.

---

P.S. - I am hoping that it is possible to have discussion on thought of theism & atheism, so long as it is conducted in a respectful, non-pointed manner. Is there any merit to this hope?

Welcome to CAF.

I believe what I believe because I accept what I was told to me is the truth.

The Bible is a library, assembled by Catholics, for Catholics. The Church came first. Out of the Church came the Bible.

P.S. - Discussing atheism is a banned topic See the sticky note at the top of the page.

 

[ThinkingFree]

I am not looking to discuss atheism.

I am looking to discuss belief, and what leads to belief.
I would go so far as to refer to the discussion as pro-belief =/

 

[JRKH]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form - I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

I have no problem with honoring your second request but the first is an unfair imposition.
You ask why one believes as they do - you do so on a Christian Forum and then ask that one not use a primary source of belief, evidence and support.
So - in short…you say, “I want your answer to an open ended question”, but the restriction indicates that you are only interested in responses from those who’s belief is not bible based…
Like I say - not fair…

That said, I believe because my reason and my heart tell me that my faith is true and right.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?

Tricky question since may faith took many twists and turns. As for as being confident in the existence of God, this occurred at a very early age and continued all my life. My confidence in the Catholic Church however waned for some time and I had to rediscover the truth and beauty of the Church after some 35 years away.

1. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?

Yes my belief is absolute. That said my “faith” is weak. I often am faced with the need to say, as the man in the Gospel said, “I believe! Help my unbelief!”

1. How active were your guardians in their faith?

Very active. My parents and most of my extended family were devout, church going Catholics and the faith was a part of our lives every day. I attended 8 years of Catholic School, was an altar server, prayed at home etc.

1. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

Frankly I don’t take a position on this. My faith is much more simple than this. Jesus tells us in Mt 22:36-40 that the basis of the Law and the Prophets is Love. He gives one commandment to His disciples - Love one another… St John tell us that "God is Love (1 John 4:7-8). Knowing embracing and growing in Love is quite sufficient to keep me busy the rest of my life without personally delving into a lot of detail. Christ gave us the Church for this and I am happy to humbly submit myself to Christ through His Church.

Peace
James

 

[tonyrey]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form - I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

Welcome to the Philosophy forum in which nothing is taken for granted at the outset! Ideally it should be an objective discussion without any reference to personal details unless they are regarded as evidence for specific beliefs.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?
2. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?
3. How active were your guardians in their faith?
4. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

The Bible is a collection of writings which serve different purposes ranging from allegories and historical accounts to prophecies and revelations.

As for background : I am a very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief). I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

Do you believe morality is entirely subjective? Is torturing a child, for example, only evil because most people think it is?

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

I find it impossible to separate the two! Thoughts and decisions are no less real than external events. Every reasonable person thinks and acts as if life is purposeful - which I regard as evidence that life is objectively purposeful.

---

I am unsure if this falls neatly within the accepted threading format. I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect. I do feel like the intent of this request is valid, even if I may not be so eloquently or knowledgeable on the subject to correctly state my intentions.

---

P.S. - I am hoping that it is possible to have discussion on thought of theism & atheism, so long as it is conducted in a respectful, non-pointed manner. Is there any merit to this hope?

Our reasons for believing in different aspects of the Catholic faith are being discussed constantly!

 

[mercytruth]

I was raised Catholic by devout Catholic parents, and left the Christian faith in becoming a sincere agnostic looking for rational answers to the questions of life.

I had a supernatural spiritual awakening in my early twenties which was not rationally induced. It is the undeserving grace of God.

This undeserving grace of God led me to believe that the bible is literal, or symbolic, or both depending on the context and for the most part spiritually rational with the necessary instruction of the Holy Spirit…

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[MichaelHowling]

Hi thinking free,

hope all is well.

1/3 My dad was a protestant and my mom was catholic (she didn’t really know her faith but she had a strong connection to Jesus in the eucharist(that’s what we catholics believe is Gods real presence in a concecrated piece of bread we partake of at our church service)…and that’s all she really held onto. My parents started taking us to church around 5 years old or so and we were baptized around 6ish i believe. We’d go to mass weekly but that wa about it. They made us go through catechism ever since (classes to help teach us about the faith)…at some point my brother became bored with church, said he didnt want to go anymore…my parents stopped taking him and stopped going themselves. I loved going to church and I loved the idea (as best i could understand it about the priesthood)…they found a way to help me get there when I wanted to go. I wanted to be a priest for years. All this time i knew the basics of the faith (did the best in the catechism classes) …but i only know mentally…i didn’t KNOW …if you know what I mean.
I started asking lots of questions and started reading books…it was all making lots of sense (there are some good catholic books out there) One of the first books I read that really got me thinking was “Lord Liar or lunatic” …written by a protestant. It helped me to understand through a pretty decient logic argument that Jesus was God. …so I started to know mentally…but I still didnt KNOW …but I sure wanted to and prayed about that .

At this point I was following my faith out of obedience more than anything.

Then…I think my prayer was answered one day. My dad who had emphzeima ended up in the hospital with a horrbile case of pneumonia…he ended up on a ventalator. He was on it for 9 days. I was in my early teens and had walked up to the hospital (3 miles away in the snow) to come see my dad…at the time my family was poor and our car was broke. I went in there and there was a group of doctors around dad and said " listen…we tried to remove the tube a few times the past could of days…he’s not able to be off it for more than a few minutes…we need to take this tube out or he is going to just get sicker! We don’t really think he’s going to do well if we remove it…do you know if your dad would want a tracheotomy ?" …they explained it and my dad started kicking me with his foot…I knew it was his way of saying “no” . “They said we need to talk to someone about what to do cause we need to get this tube out now”

 

[MichaelHowling]

…well my mom had a broken leg and couldint walk to the hospital, we didnt have money for a cab and our phone had been turned off…they kinda put it on me! I was soooo scared…I’m a young teen! I didn’t know what to do and I shouldnt be making a decision like that! So they said we’re gonna remove it but we’re worried about your dads heart-rate (it was like 140’s). I told him that when I talk with dad and hold his hand…I was able to make his heart rate come down (a nurse backed me up on that) …so they said they would go to lunch and give me a chance to calm him to give him best chances…I did the only thing I could think of…I walked to the church (which happened to be just a block away!) . I didnt know if i could get in or not…the door was unlocked and Jesus in the eucharist was on the alter in the sanctuary!!! ( i had no clue that during the season of lent…the parish put the eucharist out for everyone to see so they could come and pray and be with Him)…I walked in and knelt down right in front of him on the floor and said “help” that’s all I could get out…i was sooo choked up! So i walk back to the church and the doc’s are preparing in the room…I set with dad and I got his heart rate down to about 100…“the docs say…this is the best chance we have” So i left the room and they removed the tube and I came back and dad is yelling “where’s the girl wheres the girl” . After things calmed down…i asked what he meant;. He said he saw a beutiful little girl in a white dress by his bed just smiling at him and making him feel comfortable. He said he thought it was probably the doctors daughter…so I went to speak with the doc and he said “we dont let children back here in the ICU and I dont have a daughter”.

We took it as an angel. Weeks after, dad couldn’t remember any of this at all! But every time I’d mention the story…dad would cry. He later in life (when he bacame a real good catholic) …he said, “you know what that was all about mike…that was for you”. I think he was right. Up to that point I knew a lot of my faith intellectually…but this caused me to KNOW somewhere deeper inside myself through experience!

2. Ever since, I know through experience and through intellect that the catholic church is Gods church and that I could NEVER leave because of Jesus in the eucharist (which through this and through my mom’s experience…i know is the most important thing).

Now, I have to say I have times in life where i may argue with God, I may not understand things for some reason…but my experiences in life have taught me over and over again…God know’s what He’s doing, and light usually comes to my dark times.

**
4** Both. When you deal with the bible…there’s a few things you have to take note of:

It’s a literary work…so it does indeed use symbolism/forshadowing etc etc and other tools. It’s a religious book teaching religious truth…not science/history etc etc …you can find some of this in it…but its purpose is to teach religious truth. It’s also a book that is ancient and was written in an ancient time, by ancient people in a totally different culture. And lastly, the church is the one that put the book together and has guarded it down through the centuries…we need to listen to the one who put it together to understand it.

I hope this helped…it’s part of my story and I’m sticking to it.

God bless

Michael

 

[RoseMary131]

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?
2. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?
3. How active were your guardians in their faith?
4. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. .

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect.

Welcome Thinking Free.

May I first point out that for some of us it will be “impossible” to explain our answers, our hearts, without referencing the Bible or a spiritual understanding . [A “spiritual high ground” would be without charity - as oppose to someone expressing themselves as best they can - using spiritual references.] Please be patient with us, as some things are hard to separate. To some the separation, may seem to be asking to remove their heart from their body…as soul and body merge to one.

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?

As a cradle Catholic, I guess I always knew that I believed. I do remember a very specific conversation with God during recess for three days in a row. I remember very vividly walking around the little bricks that extend one brick depth around the church. I remember my thoughts, the bricks, the feeling of walking on the brick, the closeness of the wall. I would have been in very early grades of elementary school (1-3 grade).

1. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?

Yes, absolute…No, it does not sway from time to time…My belief is absolute therefore does not sway.

1. How active were your guardians in their faith?

My parents were very active in their faith. My mother was active in her Protestant faith and my father in his Cradle Catholic faith. My mother joined the Catholic Church when I was around 4 years old. She is a faithful Catholic. My parents both embraced the full teachings of the Church.

1. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

I can not confine myself to such a narrow understanding of the merit I find in the Bible. I understand the Bible as the Church teaches.

Why do you believe what you believe?

It is an understanding, a feeling, a knowledge - that is just there. Like I can not touch my mind -I can not point to my mind - my thoughts, neither can I touch or point to my faith - my belief in God.

If you are looking for: “I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect.”

Let me give you a hand…while it can be found “in the Bible” for some or with a “reason” for another …it is something that can simply be “felt”.

If in your heart/mind you are looking for a “possible God if He does in fact exist”… allow yourself that openness…that thinking that is really free… that thinking that has no boundaries…not tying to the intellect.

I offer a prayer for you (not to offend - but because it is my belief to pray for others).

+++Dear Lord, you see the heart of Thinking Free. Allow Thinking Free a glimpse of faith that we have in You, so that Thinking Free’s heart may understand what we may not be able to express. Allow Thinking Free the chance to see and know and feel You and Your Love. Amen. +++

 

[shoe]

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.

The Bible, the inspired Word of God, is the fundamental ingredient of the Christian epistemology; and so to suggest that Christians should either concede neutrality or silently deny any “claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way” is like asking Christians to deny the Bible as the basic epistemological foundation for their beliefs.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@JRKH \ James

I do recognize that it is a rather unfair request to impose.

I perhaps should have been more slightly in depth; I ask this because I want peoples’ personal answers, not to be spewed lines from the Bible that we’ve all heard a million times - that fall on deaf ears because at the moment, I can’t hear them in the voice they’re meant to be heard in.
→ I am simply saying that, at this phase of my belief, I can not accept the Bible - thus, references to the Bible will do nothing for me. I understand that excluding the Bible will exclude certain people’s opinions from the discussion. At this phase in the discussion, I’m just wanting to put them on hold.

Thank you for your detailed responses.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@TonyRey

Yes, yes, I understand that this does differ from the definition of a philosophical conversation. I’m honestly just looking for individual, personal philosophies - not mindless, accepted responses that I could look up on my own.

In response to your question on morality; I take my morals as a stance on human suffering, and I judge my actions in what suffering they will impose or ease. Furthermore, that my claim to happiness doesn’t impede another’s claim - because I have no grounds to assume that I have more of a claim than anyone else does.

I also do accept your answer that you can not state your beliefs without attempting to validate them. Nevertheless, I do NOT see an overall point to life. Even our most pious clergy and brilliant of scientists, there work will be forgotten in some thousands of years. The common people - it is as if they never existed. Our actions nor what we strive for will not last, so I do not see a purpose.

I do thank you for your responses.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@MichaelHowling

I am very thankful for your detailed account of your coming-to, faith wise.

It is similarly nice to see there are others who weren’t able to believe, but did get to the point eventually.

 

[Della]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form -

Hello and welcome. You don’t know how refreshing it is to have you say this. It means we can discuss on level ground.

I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

To summarize my reasons, I believe:

1. because the Catholic faith answers the three big questions about human life: why are we here, where did we come from and where are we going.
2. practicing my faith forces me to face myself, my sins and my desires–to be honest with myself.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?

I cannot think of a time when I did not sense God’s presence. I’ve always known he was there. I can’t explain it. My beliefs about God were hammered out over many years, but that’s a long story I won’t go into for the sake of brevity.

1. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?

My belief is absolute, but my understanding can be flawed/hindered.

1. How active were your guardians in their faith?

My folks were believers, but not very active until I was in 3rd grade because we had moved a great deal and hadn’t put down any roots. But we owned a family Bible and God was always spoken of with reverence in our home.

1. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

Your question shows you misunderstand what the Bible is and how it is used by Catholics. We are not “people of the book” like some of our Protestant brethren. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (which I highly recommend to you for your researches) states that there are 4 ways to interpret Scripture. You mentioned 2 of these. All these ways are valid but each depends on the type of writing and what the author of each book intended to tell us.

As for background : I am a very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief). I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

Not knowing your religious background, if any, I cannot advise you as to how belief would change your thinking/behaving/world view. I can tell you there are elements of Catholic belief that are contrary to the way secular people understand these things. I happen to think that any trials that come my way due to my beliefs are worth it because I believe in a person not a set of beliefs, per se. It is a love story not a rule book I live by.

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

Catholicism has fulfilled all my desires and answers the important questions about human existence. It gives me a proper sense of who I am in relation to God and others.

I am unsure if this falls neatly within the accepted threading format. I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect. I do feel like the intent of this request is valid, even if I may not be so eloquently or knowledgeable on the subject to correctly state my intentions.

Each of us must find our own path to God–he has each of us on our own journey to him. However, there are certain truths and practices that he has revealed to us that will help us do that. We Catholics believe the Jesus founded the Catholic Church to be his voice in the world until he returns. This is why we hold to the Catholic faith. We have found it to be all that it claims and the true means of drawing closer to God in every respect.

P.S. - I am hoping that it is possible to have discussion on thought of theism & atheism, so long as it is conducted in a respectful, non-pointed manner. Is there any merit to this hope?

Indeed, just what we’d longing to have, as well.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@RoseMary131

I understand that it is likely hard for some to answer as I have asked -
All I can say is that I will do my best to be open minded and reply so long as people are willing to work with me.

Furthermore, I would also like to state ( I felt it would be just taken as a given, but perhaps not ) - I am 100% confident that I am exceptionally ignorant - perhaps arrogant - to several matters and meta-matters pertaining to belief and spirituality. I’m trying to work through these shortcomings to be constructive, I do appreciate being nudged into the right direction from time to time.

I notice a recurrent theme seems to be a divine involvement of some sort, that causes rather exceptional changes in beliefs and foundations of belief. Perhaps this will come unto me at one point.

I am also interested in the thought that the knowledge is there and rationalized, but recognized to be outside conventional knowledge schemas.

I do not take offense to your prayer and express gratitude for your constructive rather than condemning attitude.

 

[tonyrey]

@TonyRey

Yes, yes, I understand that this does differ from the definition of a philosophical conversation. I’m honestly just looking for individual, personal philosophies - not mindless, accepted responses that I could look up on my own.

In response to your question on morality; I take my morals as a stance on human suffering, and I judge my actions in what suffering they will impose or ease. Furthermore, that my claim to happiness doesn’t impede another’s claim - because I have no grounds to assume that I have more of a claim than anyone else does.

In other words you obviously believe in the principle of equality and the Golden Rule even though you believe we exist by chance!

I also do accept your answer that you can not state your beliefs without attempting to validate them. Nevertheless, I do NOT see an overall point to life. Even our most pious clergy and brilliant of scientists, there work will be forgotten in some thousands of years. The common people - it is as if they never existed. Our actions nor what we strive for will not last, so I do not see a purpose.

Why do you believe this life is the sum total of our existence?

I do thank you for your responses.

It’s a privilege to answer such courteous questions.

PS To believe in peace implies at least one purpose in life - unless you also believe it doesn’t apply to everyone!

 

[ThinkingFree]

@Della

Yes, I am just looking for an environment where I can openly discuss topics and get (and perhaps share) constructive points to each side of the fence. I just want to have some corners illuminated, not be set afire.

For your first set of answers, I will give a very big thank you. This segment is exactly the response type I am looking for - (not the specific answers, just the format: in what it offers to you, and it is a solid enough offer you find sturdy grounds to practice your faith).

To your response in question 4 : Thank you for pointing out that I am missing information. If you could share the other 2 types of interpretation, I would be much obliged I will look into more of the Catechisms you mentioned - the environment I was raised in: you either whole heartedly believed, or you didn’t and you were automatically excluded for this lack of belief (no matter how minor, really).

For my religious background : I will attempt to sum up some key points. I don’t know if this is a total violation of the TOS - if so, notify me and I will delete this portion of the post.

I was raised in a somewhat broken household, as far as religion goes. My father acknowledges a god \ higher power, but does not believe in religion (he believes man corrupts the faith). My mother was raised by (for lack of better words) a hardcore catholic father, and her mother was just along for the ride, with a strong faith. He blamed her (and her 6 siblings) for causing him an unhappy life, forced church and faith on them, and so forth. So, in raising me, she took a very authoritarian standpoint - that I will believe because she told me so, until I am out of the house. But until that point, I would accept what I was told to believe (being our local Catholic denomination, I’m not sure what it was exactly).

I attended 8 years of Catholic \ Christian development evening classes. At first things were fine - I knew I was different from the other kids, but I was young enough that my desire to believe what the adults were telling me outweighed my intellectual arguments - i just accepted that I was mistaking something. I made it through baptism + first communion fine, due to a belief that the problem was with myself and that spiritual success would come as I went along. The older I got the more “militant” I got - some exams I purposely failed because I refused to state things I didn’t believe (people’s age being in the hundreds, verbatim creation stories, so forth). It became an uncomfortable environment because I didn’t buy what I was being told, and whenever I pressed a little for “why”, I was disciplined. All I got out of it was You will believe this because we say so. - I’ve given up my resentments, but hard feelings did come in. I was eventually confirmed against my will, was pushed to receive an exorcism (but, thankfully, the priest did not agree that I was possessed and refused to forward my grandfather’s request). I am heterosexual but I do enjoy more “fun” clothes - upon trying to get back into the church environment, I was consequently kicked out and told “we do not want your type here” (the assumption being that I was homosexual, despite being in a long standing relationship with a girl).

So, I’ve had a rather terrible background with the faith. I understand that this is not representative of all the faith - and is why I am trying to turn the other cheek on it. My problem is that I can’t believe what I’m told because someone tells me to (even if I trust the authority figure - I was close with my pastor). It has to go deeper for me, and the major problems I’ve had with faith in general stem because when I try to assess it on a deeper level, or in any way that isn’t mainstream, I get booted to square one again.

Thank you for your response, it was helpful.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@TonyRey

Yes, I take my moral standings rather explicitly from the “Golden Rule” and variations of it. I AM aware that this is rooted from religion (at least, coined by it). I do agree with several ideas of several religions, but my actions came before an understanding of these religions or there tenets. I concede that (living in America) I was influenced by a predominately Christian culture, so there are grounds of credit to the faith for that.

I suppose, very crudely, I am getting at : The cookie crumbled, but I believe it is possible for it to have crumbled differently and still leave a similar mess. Granted, I have no grounds for that, and could be wrong.

As for us being here by chance : If the dice were to be rolled again, I feel it is easy that another species could have came out on “top” - as humans have. With the luck of the role, I feel that I should make the best of the consciousness I’ve come to have - divine or otherwise.
→ I feel that many religious people, and humanists, have similar start and endpoints … the middle ground is where things get fuzzy.

I believe that this life is the sum of our existence, for no reason other than my own, really. Many faiths believe many different things happen after death : I’m just standing on what I see as a neutral point until one of them offers me a rope I can walk across. I can’t very well fly from point A to point B, so I’m waiting for other methods to become available. I maintain this point because I simply can’t just snap and accept heaven or hell awaits after death (or the predictions and standpoints of any religion).

I’m trying to say this in a non-offensive way. This is the best I can come up with - please know I don’t mean to jab or shun the faith of anyone involved. I see the world & existence as “black” and successive worlds or spiritual (for lack of better words) matters as “white” - I can’t just step from one into the other, I am seeking for a grey zone to travel upon.

I do thank you for your response and enjoy the questions and answers you provide.

R.P.S. - Peace is not the exact word I am looking for, but it is the closest I can find. I look to a world of peace without conflicts, but I know this will not happen without many groups being extinguished - which is unacceptable. Gandhi wannabe, I suppose. I just look to a better world, though I am unsure of what that may be.

 

[Della]

David, here is the relevant passage from the CCC on the senses of Scripture:

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

That will get you started.

It sounds like you weren’t allowed to have objections/ask questions as a child. That’s too bad. I can relate in that I went through a time in my life when I was a member of a very restrictive sect that didn’t allow this, either. My parents, when I was young, were very open minded, except about the Catholic Church. As far as they were concerned I could be any kind of Protestant I wanted to be, but not a Catholic.

Now that you are an adult, you can ask all the questions you want and you will find answers. The answers may not always make sense–at least at first. There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the relation of reason to faith and science to religion in our day, but they are compatible and need not be at war with one another.

I hope we can assist you in finding answers and in helping your understand. But we are not here to convince you or force you into anything. Like being in love, no one can force another into faith.

As for how you dress, that’s your personal business. No one has the right to judge you by that. Those who do are not acting as Christ would have us act, but they probably equate dress with behavior, and so are not able to understand. Be patient with them and love others anyway. Jesus certainly wasn’t understood by the people of his day, not even his disciples always did, but he loved them anyway. His love was eternal and infinite. He asks us to plug into that love when dealing with others–and ourselves. God bless you.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@Della

Thank you for your response it was very informative.

I understand you aren’t here to force me into a belief - that’s why I’m here. I browsed through some forums and people seem to be relatively sane, for the most part, so I came in the confidence that I could draw from your knowledge of the subject (surpassing any I could hope to achieve), without being lectured. So far I am very happy with the community, and am very thankful to you all for working with me, even though I don’t quite align with \ could be seen as opposing an amount of what the community stands for.

It is a small curse of me that I am a very, very firm realist - but I have exceptionally romantic tendencies. This leads to obvious problems with faith - I very much want to believe for the elegance of it. Many admirations of mine stem from exceptionally devout people. Alas, for the life of mine, I can’t force myself to believe - despite rather wanting to.