An Issue With "Traditional"

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Do you ever read an entire post or use logic whenever responding to a post??? Where on this forum or on God’s Green Earth have you ever found someone who claimed Catholics who prefer the TLM never sin??? Or that All people who attend the Novus Ordo are deficient and incapable of doing good??? No one I know of, that is in full communion with The Church…has ever attacked the Novus Ordo Mass itself…however, they attack the numerous abuses that are allowed to run rampant in them by the priest and the bishops. Is that so hard for you to understand???
Joysong said:
The implication seems to be that those who are in the TLM movement never do these things. Beg to differ on that! Like nobody ever used birth control who were in the age of the old mass? And they don’t do this now? Clearly a delusion. Sin is sin, and all Catholics are subject to commiting it, not just those who attend the Pauline mass. :rolleyes:

It is not the normative mass celebrated universally, and I agree that it certainly lends an idea that there are two normative masses which one may attend according to personal preference.
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dumspirospero said:
Do you ever read an entire post or use logic whenever responding to a post??? Where on this forum or on God’s Green Earth have you ever found someone who claimed Catholics who prefer the TLM never sin??? Or that All people who attend the Novus Ordo are deficient and incapable of doing good??? No one I know of, that is in full communion with The Church…has ever attacked the Novus Ordo Mass itself…however, they attack the numerous abuses that are allowed to run rampant in them by the priest and the bishops. Is that so hard for you to understand???
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Sonny…take a deep breath…let it go…somethings/people are really not getting upset over…they enjoy the attention that it brings them…:rolleyes:
 
I actually feel like my IQ decreases after reading some of the post made on this board. Talk about an active imagination.
Joysong said:
Thanks for the link to the document on modernism, Baltobetsy. What an eye-opener! Those who allege that the N.O. people are “modernists” are blown out of the water with this error in labeling them, for there are 65 tenets in this document.
  1. From the ecclesiastical judgments and censures passed against free and more scientific exegesis, one can conclude that the Faith the Church proposes contradicts history and that Catholic teaching cannot really be reconciled with the true origins of the Christian religion.
This one really jolted me, for it is the very argument made by some traditionists … that the Church contradicts history and seemingly has no authority to change the liturgy after Quo Primum. Yikes, who are the real modernists???
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I am trying…thanks for the breather…it is like some people have selective reading…they read only the parts they want to read, and then they take bits and pieces to come up with their own sound bites to justify their asinine point of view.
Karin said:
Sonny…take a deep breath…let it go
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dumspirospero said:
I am trying…thanks for the breather…it is like some people have selective reading…they read only the parts they want to read, and then they take bits and pieces to come up with their own sound bites to justify their asinine point of view.
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your welcome…:o
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karin
What is classified as “moderinism”? Can you give me some examples…thank you.
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Peterdiago said:
It would be the tendency to consider that certain instructions from Rome are “optional” - so, for example;
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i) Catholics practicing barrier methods of birth control within marriage because their (uninformed) conscience says it is okay.
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Sonny,

Speaking of “selective reading” it seems you failed to notice that I was responding to previous comments and used the wording SEEMS to be…
The implication seems to be that those who are in the TLM movement never do these things.
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No one I know of, that is in full communion with The Church…has ever attacked the Novus Ordo Mass itself.
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Are you from this planet? As defensive as you are about your TLM, consider well that I am defensive of the N.O. It is not worth my while to print multiple references, for I am quite positive you would not be convinced.

This is a public forum, Sonny, and though you may not like or agree with my opinion, it is my right to state it without being publicly attacked and ridiculed by all the traditionists in membership here. Kindly reconsider your lack of charity.
 
Joysong said:
, it is my right to state it without being publicly attacked and ridiculed** by all the traditionists in membership here.** Kindly reconsider your lack of charity.
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Arent you a tradionist too…someone in communion with Rome? Or are you using the word to imply something else:confused:
 
Karin said:
Arent you a tradionist too…someone in communion with Rome? Or are you using the word to imply something else:confused:
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Ahha - the point of this discussion!!

(and let’s stop the silly bickering, it really gets old)

~Liza
 
**tradition **
IN BRIEF: A specific practice or thought pattern of long standing handed down through generations which points to or confirms its wisdom.
That’s all.

It has NOTHING to do with a defacto schism.

Headcovering-long standing
Communion Rail, kneeling @ Communion-long standing
One species reception-long standing
Conversion of non-catholics via Apologetics-long standing
As oppsed to evangelizing that one should be a good Jew, or good protestant and never showing them they are in error-NOT-long standing.
Frequent Fast & Abstinence-long standing
Holy Days of Obligation during the work week-long standing
Rosary devotion before Mass-long standing.
Prayer to St Michael after Mass-long standing
Last Gospel (John) after each Mass-long standing.
Definitive or precise practice of Liturgical rubrics-long standing
Sermons on Hell, the Soul, moral behavior-long standing
Anonymous Confession and the word Confession-long standing
Older rites of the Sacraments-long standing
Not reducing dogmatic pronouncements to a useless formula-long standing
Iconography in the Church & home-long standing
Genuflecting in front of the Front & Center Church tabernacle-long standing
Kneeling after Agnus Dei-long standing.
Universal Latin language in Public worship-long standing.
Altar BOYS-long standing.
Approved Death penalty in church teaching-long standing.
Frequent Confession-long standing.
Prayer before/after meals w Sign of the Cross even in public forums-long standing.
Funerals in Black-long standing.
Modest dress in worship by all-long standing.
PRIMARY purpose of marriage-long standing.
PRIMARY purpose of death penalty-long standing.
Anullments as the rare exception-long standing.
Sacrament of First Confession before First Communion.-long standing.

And on & on.
-long standing. MEANS tradtion.

All that opposes these -long standing.points is simply opposed to a tradition.

It’s the method of those opposed to tradtion in general to point to it as reactionary or schismatic to THEIR novel new practices or absence of any at all. But the reality is just the OPPOSITE. For to throw out traditions is a form of revolt against the wisdom of ages-long standing…
Thus my long standing (traditional) sig:
To destroy a Religion, you must first sever its traditions.
 
However, that singular tradition that is embraced without exception by every traditional/modern/conciliar clergy. A tradition that refuses to die or even change:
Demolish the marble altars, install tables but don’t ever mess with the
**

COLLECTION ENVELOPES!**
 
Joysong said:
Thanks for the link to the document on modernism, Baltobetsy. What an eye-opener! Those who allege that the N.O. people are “modernists” are blown out of the water with this error in labeling them, for there are 65 tenets in this document.
  1. From the ecclesiastical judgments and censures passed against free and more scientific exegesis, one can conclude that the Faith the Church proposes contradicts history and that Catholic teaching cannot really be reconciled with the true origins of the Christian religion.
This one really jolted me, for it is the very argument made by some traditionists … that the Church contradicts history and seemingly has no authority to change the liturgy after Quo Primum. Yikes, who are the real modernists???
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Joysong - With respect, you have mischaracterized point no. 3 above. The phrase “the Faith the Church proposes contradicts history” does not refer to criticism (or charges of invalidity) directed towards the NO by Latin Mass advocates (or sedevacantists). What point 3 is saying (in error, obviously) is: “based on past Church restrictions of the more scientific approaches to interpreting the Bible, we can assume the Catholic faith contradicts the facts of history and that Catholic doctrine is at odds with ancient Christianity.” In other words, the Church has tried to prevent a true understanding of the Bible because that would prove the Catholic Church false. That is why this statement belongs on a list of errors of modernism.
 
To the OP:

I believe “traditional” is defined by the CA guys as our particular “spirituality.”

While, someone who attends a lifeteen Mass may have a contemporary spirituality.

It just so happens, that the focus of our spirituality is around the Tridentine Mass. A lot more goes a long with it of course, but that is the jist.

There is no division - not anymore than there is between the English/Spanish/Koren/Lifeteen Mass.
 
lizaanne said:
To have, on a Catholic forum, a place for “traditional Catholics”, when we are ONE holy, catholic, apostolic faith, does this not create a schismatic divide in the Church, or at least the appearance of one?
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I just wanted to say to the OP, that I was actually thankful that you and your husband were concerned about this. Coming from a Protestant background, my husband and I were thrilled that Catholicism, which we have always loved, is ONE holy, catholic, apostolic faith. None of this, “Well, which denomination do we most agree with?” (I am not meaning to offend anyone!) We were also excited to find this forum, and then suddenly started noticing posts here and there about traditionalist vs. modernism. I know that for us anyway, with only 5 months of RCIA under our belts, it was very confusing! We found ourselves asking, “Well, which one are WE?” And we didn’t think we’d have to ask that! So I am thankful to the OP and her husband for being concerned about those of us who are very, very new to the Church. 😛
 
StacieAdy said:
I just wanted to say to the OP, that I was actually thankful that you and your husband were concerned about this. Coming from a Protestant background, my husband and I were thrilled that Catholicism, which we have always loved, is ONE holy, catholic, apostolic faith. None of this, “Well, which denomination do we most agree with?” (I am not meaning to offend anyone!) We were also excited to find this forum, and then suddenly started noticing posts here and there about traditionalist vs. modernism. I know that for us anyway, with only 5 months of RCIA under our belts, it was very confusing! We found ourselves asking, “Well, which one are WE?” And we didn’t think we’d have to ask that! So I am thankful to the OP and her husband for being concerned about those of us who are very, very new to the Church. 😛
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THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! 😃

You make my point dead on.

THIS is exactly what I’m talking about.

Now - everyone who feels we can still promote this divide (call it what you want), and remain clear on our oneness, please let me know how that can be done in a way that does not cause confusion.

(and welcome to the Faith StacieAdy!!! 🙂 )

~Liza
 
The only confusion I am seeing is by those who claim to be Catholic, yet insist on acting like Protestants and having Protestant beliefs…This “divide” wouldn’t be present at all if these Catholics would actually act like Catholics…it is that simple.
lizaanne said:
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! 😃

You make my point dead on.

THIS is exactly what I’m talking about.

Now - everyone who feels we can still promote this divide (call it what you want), and remain clear on our oneness, please let me know how that can be done in a way that does not cause confusion.

~Liza
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dumspirospero said:
The only confusion I am seeing is by those who claim to be Catholic, yet insist on acting like Protestants and having Protestant beliefs…This “divide” wouldn’t be present at all if these Catholics would actually act like Catholics…it is that simple.
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So then - to attend the NO mass, not cover one’s head, prefer to receive Holy Communion in the hand, standing while receiving, ----I could go on and on— you are saying that those CATHOLICS are acting like Protestants!!!

How dare you.

That is where the arrogance of this divide comes from. Those who will look down on other Faithful and law abiding Catholics who are doing everything right according to the CCC, attending a valid and licitly performed NO mass, but don’t particularly care for the “smells and bells” (and we DO have the option you know), are less than Catholic.

Shame on you. This is where the divide comes from. Arrogance and division will tear this Church apart from the inside out if people don’t stop looking down their noses at fellow Catholics in this way.

Yep - I’m angry. Because of a new convert has to come here and say that she was confused by the information she was seeing and had to wonder. There should never ever ever be any room for confusion in the One True Faith of Jesus Christ. We are Catholic, and we should behave as one body. And to put us in “traditional” and “non-traditional” camps is only to create confusion and division to everyone outside, and even inside our own Faith.

~Liza
 
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