An Issue With "Traditional"

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lizaanne said:
So then - to attend the NO mass, not cover one’s head, prefer to receive Holy Communion in the hand, standing while receiving, ----I could go on and on— you are saying that those CATHOLICS are acting like Protestants!!!

How dare you.

That is where the arrogance of this divide comes from. Those who will look down on other Faithful and law abiding Catholics who are doing everything right according to the CCC, attending a valid and licitly performed NO mass, but don’t particularly care for the “smells and bells” (and we DO have the option you know), are less than Catholic.

Shame on you. This is where the divide comes from. Arrogance and division will tear this Church apart from the inside out if people don’t stop looking down their noses at fellow Catholics in this way.

Yep - I’m angry. Because of a new convert has to come here and say that she was confused by the information she was seeing and had to wonder. There should never ever ever be any room for confusion in the One True Faith of Jesus Christ. We are Catholic, and we should behave as one body. And to put us in “traditional” and “non-traditional” camps is only to create confusion and division to everyone outside, and even inside our own Faith.

~Liza
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I’m going to state the exact opposite from my hubby the former Protestant.
He LIKED the fighting and that we all come together in the end before the Eucharist. As he said, when Protestants fight like this, they break off and form a new congregation. Catholics go to mass.

So it can go both ways.
I kneel for communion
Do not cover my head
fold my hands
And love my NO mass.

The problems is that when a mass that YOU love is taken away, there is bitterness that builds.
Up until now, many of the people who did love the TLM were suppressed and even here, smacked for their ideas.

Give them a break too. Let them vent. I’m not one of them but coming from an extremely innovative Catholic Community to my parish home has made me realize what they have been through and in some places still can’t escape.

And honestly, the Vatican started this divide in the 70’s when they allowed people to define “movements”. Suddenly you were Charismatic Catholic or “Ecumenical Catholic” Now since we who hold to the historically Catholic want to define ourselves, people are going to get upset?

Okay.
 
I agree. I avoid the words tradtional and orthodox. I noticed immediately when I converted how people wanted to put me in a camp, a slot. I was confused, as I was still finding my identity - which I thought I’d found - simply Catholic - but some who’d been long-Catholic would pigeonhole me immediately. The divisiveness was evident.

SO I tend to refer to the topic as being “truly Catholic.” But thats a bit divisive, too, since the opposite is false Catholic.

Why not rename this forum: “Being Catholic”. Or “Catholicity”. Or, “What is Catholic?”
 
Since when did I ever say that by doing those things, a Catholic is acting like a Protestant??? You either lack the ability to understand clearly communicated statements…or you just choose not to. By acting like a Protestant I am talking about inclusive language…the push towards womens ordination…clown masses…gay pride masses…star wars masses…seizures, hand swaying, and lying down on the floor masses…altar servers…loss of belief in the real presence…pizza hut churches…etc…need I go on. I attend a Novus Ordo Mass during the week all the time…I receive communion on the tongue, but if one receives in the hand…that is their perogative…I don’t think it is as respectful as receiving on the tongue, but The Holy See has approved it…women have the choice to cover their heads if they want…again, I think they should…but by not doing it doesn’t mean they are acting like protestant…Once again I have had to defend this stance…I am getting tired of doing such…I will no longer explain myself…it is clear what I believe…just because you are incapable of comprehending or choose not to, I am sorry…but stop twisting my words and even putting words in my mouth by saying I think the NO Mass is invalid and those that attend it are protestants. Also…not liking bells and smells is fine…never said it wasn’t…I don’t know where you got that from…by tradition, I am talking about a Mass actually resembling a mass…not a community gathering. Shame on you for twisting words to try to promote your agenda…I guess you buy into the Joseph Goebbels way of thinking when trying to slander traditionalists:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” – Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945
lizaanne said:
So then - to attend the NO mass, not cover one’s head, prefer to receive Holy Communion in the hand, standing while receiving, ----I could go on and on— you are saying that those CATHOLICS are acting like Protestants!!!

How dare you.

That is where the arrogance of this divide comes from. Those who will look down on other Faithful and law abiding Catholics who are doing everything right according to the CCC, attending a valid and licitly performed NO mass, but don’t particularly care for the “smells and bells” (and we DO have the option you know), are less than Catholic.

Shame on you. This is where the divide comes from. Arrogance and division will tear this Church apart from the inside out if people don’t stop looking down their noses at fellow Catholics in this way.

Yep - I’m angry. Because of a new convert has to come here and say that she was confused by the information she was seeing and had to wonder. There should never ever ever be any room for confusion in the One True Faith of Jesus Christ. We are Catholic, and we should behave as one body. And to put us in “traditional” and “non-traditional” camps is only to create confusion and division to everyone outside, and even inside our own Faith.

~Liza
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Note:

This thread is beginning to unravel. Please remember to make your points without making personal comments about each other. If the thread continues to deteriorate, it will have to be closed.
 
Yes Mam…I am guilty and I will be first to issue a mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa :o
Jo_Benedict said:
Note:

This thread is beginning to unravel. Please remember to make your points without making personal comments about each other. If the thread continues to deteriorate, it will have to be closed.
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You know, I really have to defend Lizaanne here. Whether everyone likes to hear it or not, having there be any “division” at all is extremely confusing for a new convert. Coming into Catholicism, knowing that it is the one true Faith, is such an amazing experience! But my husband and I HAVE been confused by some of the posts. I was very touched to see Lizaanne’s first post, and some of you have taken to arguing back and forth. I understand having passion for this beautiful Faith, but please…don’t attack each other. And don’t attack Lizaanne for making a valid point. Because guys…her point IS valid. Coming to Catholicism for my husband and I was very, “Finally. ONE Church, ONE body of believers.” Traditional vs. Modern is confusing and surprising. But what’s just as surprising, is having people mad at each other on this thread.
 
lizaanne said:
That is where the arrogance of this divide comes from. Those who will look down on other Faithful and law abiding Catholics who are doing everything right according to the CCC, attending a valid and licitly performed NO mass, but don’t particularly care for the “smells and bells” (and we DO have the option you know), are less than Catholic.

~Liza
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So I take it that since you don’t care for the “smells and bells”, and in the interest of unity, the TLM should be suppressed from public use as it was before the indult. We should all be “attending a valid and licitly performed NO mass,” in your words. I suppose that includes my old parish where I was told that confession was no longer necessary as Father gives absolution for all sins before every Mass. Or maybe I shouldn’t be upset when Father consecrated a leavened dinner roll. Of course I just should accept that the Hosts were placed in straw baskets for distribution by the EMs. I certainly have not been to Mass at every parish in my diocese, but in talking to family and friends a valid NO is not hard to find, but a completely abuse free NO is not common, if not non existent. You would be hard pressed to find a completely licit Mass being said on Sunday.

So, if you want a unified Catholic church, you better clean up your own parish. Get together with the priest and laity and decide exactly how you want the Mass to be said. Get rid of the teen Mass and the Spanish Mass. Certainly never host a Charismatic or Healing Mass, they are definitely divisive. Once you get your parish in order, you can start convincing the other parishes to follow your lead. In time, you could have a consistent Mass with consistent doctrine all over your diocese. No longer having a priest saying “Oh, we no longer have to follow that rule, it’s no longer a sin.” Or, “It doesn’t matter what the Church says, your conscience is the final authority for you.”

Hey, guess what, those of us lucky enough to have a TLM parish already have Catholic unity. Wherever you go, the TLM will be said the same. Traditionalists have a lock on unity.
 
dumspirospero said:
Since when did I ever say that by doing those things, a Catholic is acting like a Protestant??? You either lack the ability to understand clearly communicated statements…or you just choose not to. By acting like a Protestant I am talking about inclusive language…the push towards womens ordination…clown masses…gay pride masses…star wars masses…seizures, hand swaying, and lying down on the floor masses…altar servers…loss of belief in the real presence…pizza hut churches…etc…need I go on.
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Then you should have said this if this is what you meant. Instead you said:

Originally Posted by dumspirospero forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
The only confusion I am seeing is by those who claim to be Catholic, yet insist on acting like Protestants and having Protestant beliefs…This “divide” wouldn’t be present at all if these Catholics would actually act like Catholics…it is that simple.

And since I am not a mind reader, I can only go by what you say and what you have stated in the past.

And I won’t even touch the Goebbels comment. I am sickened.

~Liza
 
With all due respect…whether or not it is confusing you, it doesn’t erase the fact that there are modernist trying to tear the Church apart…and Lizanne has made a post that is completely way off target, because she is wrong in her statements towards traditionalists…the whole premise of these threads are either a lie or a misunderstanding…only the OP knows this. I think it is a misunderstanding. You still have a lot to learn about Catholicism…which we all do…but ignoring facts doesn’t make it go away…it only festers and gets worse until you have a fullblown crisis on your hands…for example, look at how the Clinton administration handled the problem with Al-Qaeda, state sponsored terrorism, and Bin Laden…point proven. I am sorry if we are confusing you, but there are a certain group of people within The Catholic Church who are being attacked for holding on to Traditions and then being slandered by post like this and even being told there is no more room for us within our own Church…try to look past all this nonsense, because there truly is one true Church…you have found it…the individuals within it are flawed…that is what you are seeing…the Church herself, is perfect.
StacieAdy said:
You know, I really have to defend Lizaanne here. Whether everyone likes to hear it or not, having there be any “division” at all is extremely confusing for a new convert. Coming into Catholicism, knowing that it is the one true Faith, is such an amazing experience! But my husband and I HAVE been confused by some of the posts. I was very touched to see Lizaanne’s first post, and some of you have taken to arguing back and forth. I understand having passion for this beautiful Faith, but please…don’t attack each other. And don’t attack Lizaanne for making a valid point. Because guys…her point IS valid. Coming to Catholicism for my husband and I was very, “Finally. ONE Church, ONE body of believers.” Traditional vs. Modern is confusing and surprising. But what’s just as surprising, is having people mad at each other on this thread.
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maryjk said:
You feel that these are in the same category?
ABC and holding hands during the Our Father?
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Yes - I call them both “in contravention of direct instructions from Rome.”

Are they in the same category? Yes. Are they the same degree? No, of course not.

dumspirospero: I see you have issued a retraction. That was a wise thing to do. I advise you in the strongest terms against such foolishness again - accusing any member of this forum of the things you accused Lizaanne is not polite or charitable.

Accusing my wife of that is simply unwise.
Traditionalists have a lock on unity.
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No, you don’t. What you have in a piece of the divisive puzzle you are creating. Your examples are long and involved and completely meaningless with regard to this. Because there are a lot of Novos Ordo masses which are full of errors does not make the form invalid. Nor does it make the suggestion that the practice of saying “Traditional Catholics” divisive.

Let’s look at the division here - you yourself have created an us and them mentality in your post.
 
SnorterLuster - I’m not able to quote for some reason, so I’ll just state here that you post makes me laugh!!!

I LOVE the smells and bells!!! I’m the one who loves to receive on my knees, on the tongue. I have sung the Gregorian Chant with my parish, and I regularly go to confession prior to mass.

You just don’t get it. It doesn’t matter if that’s who I am or not. It’s how I look on those who don’t live their Faith in the same way but are still good and Faithful Catholics. I don’t see them as any less Catholic or Faithful than I.

I refuse to draw a line between Catholics who are Faithful, regardless of how they choose to express their Faith. Given that it is valid, licit, and lawful.

~Liza
 
Dumspirispero:
By acting like a Protestant I am talking about inclusive language…the push towards womens ordination…clown masses…gay pride masses…star wars masses…seizures, hand swaying, and lying down on the floor masses…altar servers…loss of belief in the real presence…pizza hut churches…etc…need I go on.
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Not only are you insulting the N.O. Catholic mass, you are insulting Protestants, whose liturgies are nothing of the sort. I believe it has been said enough times on this forum and you have been a member long enough to know that we should never insult or demean another religion. These people are most sincere in their love of God and endeavor to live pleasing to God. Unless you have proof that this is the norm with Protestants, and I’m certain you do NOT, kindly speak with charity and avoid these prejudiced statements.
 
dumspirospero said:
With all due respect…whether or not it is confusing you, it doesn’t erase the fact that there are modernist trying to tear the Church apart…and Lizanne has made a post that is completely way off target, because she is wrong in her statements towards traditionalists…the whole premise of these threads are either a lie or a misunderstanding…only the OP knows this. I think it is a misunderstanding. You still have a lot to learn about Catholicism…which we all do…but ignoring facts doesn’t make it go away…it only festers and gets worse until you have a fullblown crisis on your hands…for example, look at how the Clinton administration handled the problem with Al-Qaeda, state sponsored terrorism, and Bin Laden…point proven. I am sorry if we are confusing you, but there are a certain group of people within The Catholic Church who are being attacked for holding on to Traditions and then being slandered by post like this and even being told there is no more room for us within our own Church…try to look past all this nonsense, because there truly is one true Church…you have found it…the individuals within it are flawed…that is what you are seeing…the Church herself, is perfect.
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You are correct in that I have much to learn. And I do not wish to get in the middle of any misunderstandings that might be going on. My only point is that there shouldn’t be bickering.
 
Not to be uncharitable, but if I want advice, I will ask for it…right now, I don’t believe I need any…I am still unclear what retraction you are talking about and who your wife is and what I supposedly accused her of. This is ridiculous. In the spirit of Charity, I will post a scripture I came across while praying the Divine Office:
“Guard against foul talk; let your words be for the improvement of others, as occasion offers, and do good to your listeners, otherwise you will only be grieving the Holy Spirit of God who has marked you with his seal for you to be set free when the day comes. Never have grudges against others, or lose your temper, or raise your voice to anybody, or call each other names, or allow any sort of spitefulness. Be friends with one another, and kind, forgiving each other as readily as God forgave you in Christ.” Ephesians 4:29 - 32

I know I can be guilty of this at times…and if I have been, I am truly sorry. God Bless
Peterdiago said:
dumspirospero: I see you have issued a retraction. That was a wise thing to do. I advise you in the strongest terms against such foolishness again - accusing any member of this forum of the things you accused Lizaanne is not polite or charitable.

Accusing my wife of that is simply unwise.

.
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Such an attitude – there’s no such thing as traditional Catholicism… only Catholicism – is ultimately naive. There are many Catholics who are much more spiritually nourished by the old Rite than the new. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to identify themselves, especially when you consider that what we have to sometimes fight tooth and nail for was the normative Mass for 1,500 years? No one accuses Byzantine Catholics of being divisive for having a different theological, devotional, and liturgical tradition. Why shouldn’t Catholics who love the Latin Mass receive the same courtesy?
 
I guess the fact that I am a protestant convert to Catholicism isn’t enough proof. First hand accounts is not proof enough?
Joysong said:
Not only are you insulting the N.O. Catholic mass, you are insulting Protestants, whose liturgies are nothing of the sort. I believe it has been said enough times on this forum and you have been a member long enough to know that we should never insult or demean another religion. These people are most sincere in their love of God and endeavor to live pleasing to God. Unless you have proof that this is the norm with Protestants, and I’m certain you do NOT, kindly speak with charity and avoid these prejudiced statements.
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I see that many of the ones who are being accused of attacking th NO Mass are actually the ones defending it. The main thing I see (with a few exceptions) are the “traditionalists” defending the NO but attacking the abuses that seem to be so commonplace at most NO parishes.

I attend both TLM and NO Masses. Often times I am accused of attacking the NO Mass when in actuality I am the one defending it, (and usually the one making the accusation is the one who is “attacking” the NO Mass by the simple fact that what they are truly “defending” are the abuses and not the Mass itself).

For example:

When I defend Gregorian Chant I am defending the NO Mass because that is what the Church says is supposed to be the norm.

When I defend male-only altar servers I am defending the NO Mass because that is the preference of the Church, (she only allowed the use of female altar servers in those circumstances were the abuse was already taking place…it was not supposed to spread to other parishes that were using that practice - but see how many are today? That is an abuse.)

etc.
 
I hear you and completely agree…I for one am going to make an honest effort to stop and call a truce…anyone with me…out of the spirit of Charity? I love you all…I truly do…I am tired of arguing about this stuff…we are all hard headed and won’t change…Come to my restraunt, I will buy you all a beer. 🙂
StacieAdy said:
You are correct in that I have much to learn. And I do not wish to get in the middle of any misunderstandings that might be going on. My only point is that there shouldn’t be bickering.
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