An observation about the bible and book of mormon

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Eliza10 said:
Not sure but I think you mean Univaersalist Unitarianism? Yes, I see a lot of Catholics in name-only, or Jews-in-name-only, or people who never had any faith grounding join the UU’s. Its a safe place to join, as they don’t demand too much, and their faith blends well with the culture of the day. Its something when you have nothing.

I participated at the UU church for a little while. I don’t know that they blend with the culture, in a lot of ways they are very counter culture. In the sense that the current US culture is very individualized and focused on self, they are very community oriented.

Could be true then. Its just not in my experience to see Mormons leave and not embrace anything. I do feel sorry for them then. But like those of other religions, if you leave a faith something you never embaraced, its not really leaving the faith. If you are levavng the culture, and its your culture, your family, it certainly is hard.

People apply the reasoning and logic they used to see the falseness of mormonism and start to apply it everywhere and to everything.

I do feel sorry for them going through all that to leave and not being able to fall into thearms of Jesus.

True. Former Catholics who never embraced faith while they were Catholics, and found Jesus in the Pentacostalism, realy have found something whereas before they had “nothing”.

I do love reading the stories of those who did that and then discovered the richness and fullness of faith in the Catholic Church - they realized they had unknowingly thrown out the baby with the bathwater!

People of many religions say this a lot to atheists. It isn’t throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it is a case of sitting in the wrong tub altogether. 🙂
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why_me said:
Mormons have heard criticisms of their beliefs since the founding of the lds faith. .
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And for good reason! What ignoble beginnings!
why_me said:
Usually, it has been the people criticizing the faith that have not been tolerant. .
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I completely disagree. Honestly, you sound brainwashed with this statement.
why_me said:
Also, calling Mormonism a cult is not exactly a friendly statement.

The Romans considered christianity a cult and we know of the persecution by the Romans.
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The truth isn’t always nice to hear. But my understanding is that Mormonism fits the common definition of cult, and I see no reason to think otherwise. If you can find a reputable definition of cult, with a list of cult characteristics, and show me how Mormonism does not fit the general description, that could work persuade to me otherwise, if you think such an argument is possible.
 
why_me said:
And yet I paraphrased Paul about being learned and wise and how such traits can lead one out of faith.

Reasoning has much to do with being too learned and too wise about religion and god.It is very easy to reason oneself away from god.

I don’t know scripture very well, let alone how to interpret it, so I can’t really respond to what Paul said.

To me, reasoning is the ability to take experience and knowledge and apply it. Not just one’s own, but that of others as well.

I disagree that anyone can be too learned or wise. I see the reasoning “problem” more as believing that what is known and experienced, either individually or by humanity as a whole, as the only thing that is known or experienced. This is where my faith in God began, with the idea that perhaps it is only He that has perfect knowledge and experience of all things. The rest of us are exponentially remedial.
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RebeccaJ said:
I participated at the UU church for a little while. I don’t know that they blend with the culture, in a lot of ways they are very counter culture. In the sense that the current US culture is very individualized and focused on self, they are very community oriented.
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I guess you’d know more than I do if you have participated. I have just had my brushings with members. I see UU as politically correct, and that fits with the culture. For example, it is not politically correct to stand up for Life, so I don’t think you would see activists for Life there, but you would see activists for “choice”. You would see activists for tolerance and “anti-gay-haters” but you would not find a group like Courage, for people trying to leave the gay lifestyle or for trying to live lives of chasity.
RebeccaJ said:
I
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People apply the reasoning and logic they used to see the falseness of mormonism and start to apply it everywhere and to everything.

Sad.
RebeccaJ said:
I
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People of many religions say this a lot to atheists. It isn’t throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it is a case of sitting in the wrong tub altogether. 🙂

I think you’re right!
 
why_me said:
And yet I paraphrased Paul about being learned and wise and how such traits can lead one out of faith. Reasoning has much to do with being too learned and too wise about religion and god. It is very easy to reason oneself away from god.
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I do not think take one verse or paraphrase of a verse from Paul makes a case. Lots of folks use Bible verses to support lots of unBiblical things!

The Catholic way is to put these verses in context. To see all of what Paul says. And Paul does not pit faith against reason.
 
Eliza10 said:
And Paul does not pit faith against reason.
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No, but people do and this is why perhaps he gives a caution. At that time, some christians were embracing the modern thought of their time found in Greece, as an example. Paul mentions one such man who traveled with him until this man turned to the world.

Plus people were still embracing the gods or being led away to embrace the gods. Christians were being led away by the slick intellectualism of their time. Thus, Paul gave the warning.
 
Eliza10 said:
I guess you’d know more than I do if you have participated. I have just had my brushings with members. I see UU as politically correct, and that fits with the culture. For example, it is not politically correct to stand up for Life, so I don’t think you would see activists for Life there, but you would see activists for “choice”. You would see activists for tolerance and “anti-gay-haters” but you would not find a group like Courage, for people trying to leave the gay lifestyle or for trying to live lives of chasity.
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They have no dogmas, and thus the individual and social moral points you make here are approached differently. They believe people have the right to choose what is morally correct for themselves, whether it through humanism or Christianity. They have no problem with your beliefs, as long as they do not harm another individual. They see harm in the hatred that many so-called Christians throw at people who are not like themselves.

They have no problem with an individual who has made a choice to join a group like Courage. They view abortion as a choice that is not the business of religion, including their own. I know that from a Christian POV this is very wrong and upside down. However, the quickest way to a UUs heart to to point out how the actions of an individual or group harm another individual or group. I think it would be a more fortunate circumstance if the pro-life movement would use less hate, and more teaching. Teaching that helps people to understand that abortion is harming another individual.

It is true that their openness to all ideas and lack of dogma attracts those at the fringes of society. However, each UU society is different, one from the other. There are societies that are liberal and some that are conservative.

In Utah they tend to attract a lot of former mormons. The UUs are provide support groups for those leaving or questioning their mormon faith. The UUs make these support groups a neutral place, where no promotion or put down of any particular religion is allowed. They focus on the common issues that people face on their exit out of mormonism. The things you see here like cultural, social and family issues.
 
why_me said:
On the book of mormon and honey bees thread Majick275 stated:

the BoM asserts many things that are either unproven or actually disproven. more importantly though it does NOT contain any accounts of what we now know was in existence then. I have thought all along that you were a TBM trying to use a Catholic background to lead the unwary here to your missionaries. I don’t think it will happen and I still hold out hope that you will put away the false prophets of the Mormons and accept the exclusive truth of the ONE, Holy, Catholic church. God bless you,

My comment: The bible can be proven by archeological evidence however it cannot prove that Christ is the Christ, the son of god. We need faith to believe so. There is nothing in the bible that can give us proof that Christ worked miracles. It takes faith to believe so. No problem.

With the book of mormon there is no substantial archeological evidence to conclusively support the book of mormon, however, we do have a book which has been testified by 11 witnesses to be the work of god and who have seen the plates that the book was translated from.

To believe the bible or the book of mormon, one needs faith. It is in the faith that the two books are united. Neither will be conclusively proven to be true because if this were the case, faith would no longer be needed and that can not happen.

Such is the religious life…all is based on faith. Sign seekers will always be disappointed.
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You are comparing the Divinity of Jesus Christ to a book that you admit has no archeological evidence to support it just because
12-1 “witnesses” said they saw some plates that can not be produced?
 
why_me said:
On the book of mormon and honey bees thread Majick275 stated:

the BoM asserts many things that are either unproven or actually disproven. more importantly though it does NOT contain any accounts of what we now know was in existence then. I have thought all along that you were a TBM trying to use a Catholic background to lead the unwary here to your missionaries. I don’t think it will happen and I still hold out hope that you will put away the false prophets of the Mormons and accept the exclusive truth of the ONE, Holy, Catholic church. God bless you,

My comment: The bible can be proven by archeological evidence however it cannot prove that Christ is the Christ, the son of god. We need faith to believe so. There is nothing in the bible that can give us proof that Christ worked miracles. It takes faith to believe so. No problem.

With the book of mormon there is no substantial archeological evidence to conclusively support the book of mormon, however, we do have a book which has been testified by 11 witnesses to be the work of god and who have seen the plates that the book was translated from.

To believe the bible or the book of mormon, one needs faith. It is in the faith that the two books are united. Neither will be conclusively proven to be true because if this were the case, faith would no longer be needed and that can not happen.

Such is the religious life…all is based on faith. Sign seekers will always be disappointed.
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“For those who have faith, no explanation is nececessary
For those who do not have faith, no explanation is possible”

Scince is not always right…sometimes yes - sometimes no. How can you ever prove a faith-based issue except by faith?

Annie
 
i don’t disagree with your theory BUT since my post was referenced, I was speaking specifically to some issues that CAN be easily seen through verifiable facts. One of the things about the BoM that I find problematic is that it never shows us any glimpse of what we know to have existed culturally in the americas at that time. It doesn’t mention the predominant agriculture, government systems, tools, customs, myths etc. that we DO know existed. One would expect that if it were true those writers would have mentioned some of these aspects of the people even if just mentioning them as other people in the land.
 
majick275 said:
i don’t disagree with your theory BUT since my post was referenced, I was speaking specifically to some issues that CAN be easily seen through verifiable facts. One of the things about the BoM that I find problematic is that it never shows us any glimpse of what we know to have existed culturally in the americas at that time. It doesn’t mention the predominant agriculture, government systems, tools, customs, myths etc. that we DO know existed. One would expect that if it were true those writers would have mentioned some of these aspects of the people even if just mentioning them as other people in the land.
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Not to mention this idea that discrediting the Bible lends credit to the BoM. I could do that all day with any subject you throw at me.

Alien visitations are real because if they aren’t, the Bible isn’t real.

Unicorns are real because if they aren’t, the Bible isn’t real.

The Lucky Charm leprechaun is real because if he isn’t, the Bible isn’t real.

What kind of wonderland of nonsense is this?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Not to mention this idea that discrediting the Bible lends credit to the BoM. I could do that all day with any subject you throw at me.

Alien visitations are real because if they aren’t, the Bible isn’t real.

Unicorns are real because if they aren’t, the Bible isn’t real.

The Lucky Charm leprechaun is real because if he isn’t, the Bible isn’t real.

What kind of wonderland of nonsense is this?
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Your sarcasm is real - no doubt about that.

The Bible is true - no doubt about that
The Book of Mormon is true - no doubt about that

Will you get hot under the collar and reply to this with more sarcasm? I am pretty sure you will, but, of course, I cannot scientifically prove it;)

Annie
 
so in the cases where the BoM and Bible contradict which is correct? why do you believe that?
 
Annie_B said:
The Book of Mormon and the Bible contradict eachother no more than the Bible contradicts itself.

Annie
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"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matthew 15:14)

zerinus
 
Annie_B said:
Your sarcasm is real - no doubt about that.

The Bible is true - no doubt about that
The Book of Mormon is true - no doubt about that

Will you get hot under the collar and reply to this with more sarcasm? I am pretty sure you will, but, of course, I cannot scientifically prove it;)

Annie
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I wasn’t being sarcastic!

I know the Book of Mormon is twu doesn’t cut it, not when the evidence against it is so large, and there is no evidence for it.

Faith and reason not only don’t have to be at odds, they shouldn’t be.
 
Annie_B said:
The Book of Mormon and the Bible contradict eachother no more than the Bible contradicts itself.

Annie
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Yep, trash the bible. That’s the Mormon way.

Please give me an example of where the bible contradicts itself.

The classic list of supposed bible-contradictions used by Mormons and other anti-bible types has all been thoroughly debunked. The only seeming contradictions in the bible are in the minds of those who don’t know the bible very well.

Paul
 
Annie_B said:
The Book of Mormon and the Bible contradict eachother no more than the Bible contradicts itself.

Annie
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so then there isn’t any issue with plain and precious things being removed or translation “errors” due to the craftiness of men? perhaps you meant the JST doesn’t contradict the BoM?
 
PaulDupre said:
Yep, trash the bible. That’s the Mormon way.

Please give me an example of where the bible contradicts itself.

The classic list of supposed bible-contradictions used by Mormons and other anti-bible types has all been thoroughly debunked. The only seeming contradictions in the bible are in the minds of those who don’t know the bible very well.

Paul
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How dare you insinuate that I am trashing the Bible! re-read the post and if you still do not understand it, then get some help doing so.

Annie
 
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