An Observation

[MarysGirls]

De 6:13 "You shall fear {only} the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name.

De 8:19
"It shall come about if you ever forget the LORD your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you will surely perish.

Prayer is a form of worship; so praying to a saint will not be heard but by God alone for He is omnipresent and omniscient.

Jesus gave us the model and told His disciples, whom you call the Apostles and claim to follow their traditions, which they were taught by Jesus when they asked “How should we pray?” and Jesus gave the only model of prayer, which is to the Father directly and known as the Lord’s prayer. It is a matter of obedience as Jesus told us exactly the manner to which and He set the example throughout His earthly life by praying only to His Father and my Father. Take it for what it is worth.

See above, we are commanded in the affirmative, not the negative.
Same answer as above - take it for what it is or not.

Dear MacDaddy,
I think it is time something was cleared up. We Catholics tend to use the term “pray” a bit too freely and it is to our discredit. When we say “pray” we simply mean that we are talking to someone in heaven. We are not worshiping them or anything like that. We’re just talking (sometimes we talk a little too much ). Usually when a Catholic says he’s praying to Mary or a different saint, he really means he’s asking that saint to pray to GOD for his intention. Much like you would ask a loved one here on earth to pray for you. That’s all.

 

[MacDaddy]

Neither Mary nor anyone else can do anything on their own. If anything that gets done is done by the power of Jesus God. That is understood. Asking Mary for intercessory prayer is no different than asking your congregation for their prayers for you. You have to use common sense when trying to understand this.

Doesn’t common sense say to follow the example Jesus set and what Jesus taught the Apostles, which was what? Ever heard of the Lord’s Prayer? Did Jesus ever pray to Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Rehab or was it always, without exception to the Father, which is exactly how He instructed the Apostles?

I have seen the titles for Mary and some of the prayers that go directly to her and asking her alone and not Jesus,not the Father not the Holy Spirit, but just her. I have also seen prayers that pray directly to Mary and requesting her to make a specific intercession on behalf the person praying.

If I ask my mother, who can hear me, to pray for my safety on a trip? What will she do? She will go directly to God the Father and ask for safety and end it in Jesus name I ask or in Christ name I pray. Not close to praying to Mary which is neither omnipresent or omniscient as God the Father is. This is how I would explain it from a Biblical point of view.

 

[MacDaddy]

Okay, I think I can explain this to you if you can just spare me a moment of your time.
If I were to ask you to pray for me, would you refuse? I hope you wouldn’t. Praying to saints and to Our Lady is no different, because we are not really praying to them, in as much as we are asking them to pray to GOD for us. Because no soul in heaven is dead, it is the same as me asking you to pray for me. Does this make sense?

Pax!
Nicole

The difference is you can ask someone who actually hears you through some form of communication, such as email or telephone; whereas God alone is omnipresent and omniscient; it is part of what makes Him God. For you to ask Mary, you would need to resurrect her from the grave, which is also the power of God. Therefore you pray to her with the belief that she is either omniscient and/or omnipresent, which prayer of this manner is a form of worship. Some of the prayers to Mary are asking for intercession in which she is to perform on behalf of the person praying where God is not involved at all; most do ask for intercession to or through God. Anyway, the only one that can hear your silent prayers is God.

 

[MarysGirls]

Doesn’t common sense say to follow the example Jesus set and what Jesus taught the Apostles, which was what? Ever heard of the Lord’s Prayer? Did Jesus ever pray to Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Rehab or was it always, without exception to the Father, which is exactly how He instructed the Apostles?

I have seen the titles for Mary and some of the prayers that go directly to her and asking her alone and not Jesus,not the Father not the Holy Spirit, but just her. I have also seen prayers that pray directly to Mary and requesting her to make a specific intercession on behalf the person praying.

If I ask my mother, who can hear me, to pray for my safety on a trip? What will she do? She will go directly to God the Father and ask for safety and end it in Jesus name I ask or in Christ name I pray. Not close to praying to Mary which is neither omnipresent or omniscient as God the Father is. This is how I would explain it from a Biblical point of view.

First of all, every prayer is started and ended in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We Catholics pray the Our Father or Lord’s Prayer quite often. But let me ask you something. Is my little brother sinning when he prays, “Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep…” ?? It’s not the Lord’s Prayer. How about when I’m scared or nervous and all I can think of to say is “Please help me, GOD.” It’s not the Lord’s Prayer. Am I sinning? Even JESUS, in the Garden of Gethsamene prayed something other than the Lord’s Prayer. Was HE sinning? Of course not. JESUS didn’t mean that we can only pray the Lord’s Prayer, though it is certainly a good prayer to pray.
Now let me ask you something else. When I ask my mom to pass the salad at dinner, am I sinning? I didn’t ask GOD. But of course, that is absurd. So when I ask Mary to do something for me, am I sinning? If so, how so? We’re not worshiping her or replacing GOD or anything like that. We’re either asking a favor or asking her to pray to GOD for us. What’s wrong with that?

Pax!
Nicole

 

[MacDaddy]

While it is your opinion that it is a misnomer for Mary to be called “Mother of God” let me quote you from the Ultra conservative Protestant Hank Hanegraaff (AKA the Bible Answer man) from his website equip.org. He writes the following on the “Theotokos” which is the far older name for “Mother of God” and is still the name used by the Orthodox Christians to this day.

*"THE THEOTOKOS- Introduction
Both Catholics and Protestants recognize Mary as the mother of Jesus Christ. However, beyond this, their views are vastly divergent. Just how different are they?

THE THEOTOKOS- The Beginnings of a Conflict
Of the many issues which divide Catholics and Protestants, the question of Mary’s status within the church is definitely one of the most prominent ones. In fact, the beginning of the problem can be traced all the way back to the Council of Chalcedon, which took place in 451 A.D. Here, Mary was officially given the title Theotokos (which means “God-bearer” or “mother of God”). Well, this designation was meant to underscore the fact that Jesus is God in the flesh — one person who possessed two distinct natures, rather than two persons who were somehow joined together. Unfortunately, the title paved the way for extreme Marian devotees to filter into the church.

THE THEOTOKOS- Blessed, or Venerated?
In confessing Mary to be “the mother of God,” we simply mean that it was within Mary’s womb that the eternal Son became united to a human nature and entered the world as theanthropos, the God-man. Mary was truly Jesus’ mother, but let’s make an important distinction here — she was Christ’s mother with respect to His humanity and not His deity.* We affirm with Catholics that Mary was indeed “blessed among women” (Luke 1:28). After all, God chose her to give birth to the Messiah."

So you can see from this That Hank even shows that he can live with this ancient custom. If it makes you comfortable calling Mary “the Mother of Jesus” that would certainly not be out of line with scripture; But “Mother of God” would not be out of line with church traditions held for centuries either. I hope this makes the story on the title a little clearer from the PROTESTANT view.

That was her point to the Catholic posters; she is the mother of Jesus the God-man, but not Mother of God with the capital “M”. In fact Mother of God seems blasphemous because the implication is that she birthed God. She gave birth to Jesus, who was already God.

 

[MarysGirls]

The difference is you can ask someone who actually hears you through some form of communication, such as email or telephone; whereas God alone is omnipresent and omniscient; it is part of what makes Him God. For you to ask Mary, you would need to resurrect her from the grave, which is also the power of God. Therefore you pray to her with the belief that she is either omniscient and/or omnipresent, which prayer of this manner is a form of worship. Some of the prayers to Mary are asking for intercession in which she is to perform on behalf of the person praying where God is not involved at all; most do ask for intercession to or through God. Anyway, the only one that can hear your silent prayers is God.

Never thought of it that way. But when I talk to the saints, I know that GOD will see that they get the message.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think I’ve explained my position adequately to this point. If it doesn’t suit you, you are free to go elsewhere.

So this means you can’t answer my questions. Ergo, you are contradictory as you believe it is wrong for Catholics to pray to saints, yet you yourself don’t follow only Scripture and actually add to Scripture.

I hope that you think about this. The only thing you have explained to me is that you can’t answer simple questions about Scripture and are poorly educated when it comes to Scripture and the Catholic Church. You are not as good at side-stepping as you might think you are. I take my faith very very seriously - it is the most important part of my life and actually is my entire life. I want to follow God and glorify Him. You can’t show me that what I am doing when I am praying to Mary and the saints is wrong. You can’t show me that because you are arguing from a position which is indefensible.

I knew you wouldn’t concede any points with me but I kept posting in the hopes that other people would read our posts and perhaps have minds that are a bit more open than yours. If you truly love God (and honestly I believe you love God very much) please educate yourself. Please read more about Catholic Church teachings - not what some people who claim to be Catholic say, but what the Church herself teaches. And I hope you question and question and question and never stop because we both believe in eternal life with God in Heaven and I would be very happy to see you in Heaven one day.

Please pray for me and I will pray for you. I don’t mean that in any sort of condescending way. I believe that you are extremely precious to Jesus and that He wants only what is best for you as He loves you (and me) so much that He allowed Himself to be horribly tortured, mocked, and murdered for us.

You’re right, I had no idea it was a derogatory term and if it offended anyone, please accept my sincere apology.

I was fairly sure that you didn’t know it was a derogatory term. Actually I have problems when words are hijacked and no longer have the same meaning they traditionally had. I just wanted to warn you. I wasn’t offended at all and I don’t think anyone else was, either.

Fair Lady, I hope you realize that what I was doing was defending my faith. I have no bad feelings toward you and I hope you have none torward me. I pray that this new year brings you nothing but blessings, peace, and joy.

God bless you, Fair Lady!!

Christina

 

[MarysGirls]

That was her point to the Catholic posters; she is the mother of Jesus the God-man, but not Mother of God with the capital “M”. In fact Mother of God seems blasphemous because the implication is that she birthed God. She gave birth to Jesus, who was already God.

I can see your point and I almost agree with it. However, JESUS is one Person, two natures, correct? Now ask yourself: does a mother give birth to a nature, or a person?

Just something to chew on for a little while…

Pax!
Nicole

 

[dcrowmik]

So this means you can’t answer my questions. Ergo, you are contradictory as you believe it is wrong for Catholics to pray to saints, yet you yourself don’t follow only Scripture and actually add to Scripture.

I hope that you think about this. The only thing you have explained to me is that you can’t answer simple questions about Scripture and are poorly educated when it comes to Scripture and the Catholic Church. You are not as good at side-stepping as you might think you are.

Fair Lady has dodged a number of my questions as well. She has stated a number of times that the Bible tells us WHAT TO DO and then goes on to state things that are not in the Bible (different “realms”, that it’s OK asking living people to pray for us to God but once they die you can’t, not asking angels for their assistance or for them to pray to God for us, and so on).

Fair Lady has not been able to give any one iota of proof that any of that is either definitively stated in the Bible, alluded to in the Bible or prohibited in the Bible. Thus, the things she has claimed are not scripturally supported and since they are not scripturally supported they are simply her own opinion which leads to a sticky wicket – what makes her opinion correct vs. her pastor’s vs. the member at the church down the street vs. any other person interpreting scripture to the beat of their own drum?

 

[MacDaddy]

I see that your religious affiliation is Christian. Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Why not just ask if I am a JW or Mormon?

 

[MarysGirls]

Fair Lady has dodged a number of my questions as well. She has stated a number of times that the Bible tells us WHAT TO DO and then goes on to state things that are not in the Bible (different “realms”, that it’s OK asking living people to pray for us to God but once they die you can’t, not asking angels for their assistance or for them to pray to God for us, and so on).

Fair Lady has not been able to give any one iota of proof that any of that is either definitively stated in the Bible, alluded to in the Bible or prohibited in the Bible. Thus, the things she has claimed are not scripturally supported and since they are not scripturally supported they are simply her own opinion which leads to a sticky wicket – what makes her opinion correct vs. her pastor’s vs. the member at the church down the street vs. any other person interpreting scripture to the beat of their own drum?

Yes, that has been said more than once. Please, try not to judge and please do your best to be charitable about it. I for one often make the mistake of stating something I believe and then, when questioned about it, realize I can’t provide a reference.
I do not agree with Fair Lady and the things you have said are probably true, but do you realize how it sounds??? Please, let’s stop rubbing it in so much.

Pax!
Nicole

 

[Randy_Carson]

Again, I believe that I have stated my position adequately. I think that there is such a vast difference in our foundational premises that we hold to, that we would need to begin all over again to make sense of any of this. The bottom line as far as this thread goes is that I believe that praying to Mary and saints that have gone before us is error and so far no one has been able to come up with scripture to prove otherwise.

When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.

Additionally, I think it is reasonable to say that you have not come up with a single verse prohibiting us from talking with our brothers and sisters who have gone home to be with the Lord, have you?

Therefore, in the absence of any biblical injunction, who are you to try to take away the freedom we have in Christ?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I just think that Mary bening referred to as “Mother of God” is a misnomer. I definitely do believe that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the title of “Mother of God” suggests that Mary is the mother of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. At the same time, Jesus was fully God and fully human when He walked the earth. If one refers to Mary as “Mother of God” because Jesus was fully God and man at the same time, I think it’s just an unfortunate choice of words. My preference is to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus.

Fair Lady-

Just to show you how badly you have stumbled on this, here is an explanation of Nestorianism - the heresy you are espousing - from CARM, a bitterly anti-Catholic website:

Nestorianism

Nestorianism is the error that Jesus is two distinct persons. The heresy is named after Nestorius, who was born in Syria and died in 451 AD, who advocated this doctrine. Nestorius was a monk who became the Patriarch of Constantinople and he repudiated the Marian title “Mother of God.” He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human.

Nestorius was deposed as Patriarch and sent to Antioch, then Arabia, and then Egypt. Nestorianism survived until around 1300.

The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the “human person” then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.

carm.org/nestorianism

 

[MacDaddy]

John 21:25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

MacDaddy, the Bible contains what is necessary for salvation. That’s why Protestants are saved and I thank GOD for that. However, JESUS says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” (Jn. 14:6) So the closer we are to Truth, the closer we are to Christ, right? Well, GOD’s Truth is too big to fit in one book. It’s too big to fit in our minds. But GOD in His infinite wisdom has seen fit to give us a limited understanding of this Truth. Not only in the Written Word, but through Dinine Revelation, which is made up of three parts: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magesterial Teaching, all of which are inspired by the Holy Spirit. “These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things.” (Jn. 14:26) Meaning, after JESUS went to the Father, the Holy Spirit came to continue the revelation.

John 21:25 says the things He DID, not said. A Christian cannot be saved nor considered a Christian outside of the Catholic Church unless they are completely ignorant, which is a reflection of Romans 1 & beginning of Romans 2.

According to your church i am doomed because I am familiar with Catholic doctrines, which I do not agree with especially on issue justification.

Saint Cyprian (3rd century): “There is no salvation outside of the Church”.

Creed of Saint Atanasius (4th century), official creed of the Catholic Church: "Whoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly (…) This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.”

The Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our mouths we confess one only Church, which is not of heretics, just the Saint, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic, outside of which we believe that no one can be saved”.

IV Lateran Council (1215), infallible, Canon I: “There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved…”. Canon III: “We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above…”

Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303): “For attachment to Faith, we ought to believe and sustain that there is only one Saint Catholic Church and the same apostolic and we firmly believe and simply confess that outside her there is no salvation nor absolution of sins. (…)Roman Pontiff, we declare, decide, define and pronounce it as of whole necessity for the salvation of all human creature.”

Council of Florence (1438-1445): “… firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her(…)”

The infallible Council of Trent (1545-1563) besides condemning and excommunicating Protestants, it also reiterated everything that was declared in previous Councils proclaiming: “…our catholic faith, without which is impossible to please God…”

Pope Pius IV (1559-1565), one of the popes of the Council of Trent:”… This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved…” (Profession of faith of the Bull “Iniunctum nobis”, 1564)

Pope Benedict IV (1740-1758): “This faith of the Catholic Church, outside of which no one can be saved…”

Are you a good Catholic for believing I can possibly be saved apart from the Catholic church? I don’t know; i suppose it depends on which one you were to ask.

 

[Randy_Carson]

John 21:25 says the things He DID, not said. A Christian cannot be saved nor considered a Christian outside of the Catholic Church unless they are completely ignorant, which is a reflection of Romans 1 & beginning of Romans 2.

According to your church i am doomed because I am familiar with Catholic doctrines, which I do not agree with especially on issue justification.

This is completely false. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches the exact opposite. It is not necessary to be a formal member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. However, by virtue of your Christian baptism, you are a member of the Body of Christ which is properly the Catholic Church since Christ founded only one Church upon Peter, the rock.

Therefore, all those who are not formal member of the Catholic Church who are saved will be saved by virtue of their communion, albeit imperfect, with the Catholic Church, and you, my separated brother, are “Catholic” whether you know it or like it or not.

Here are better explanations:

Articles on Salvation Outside the Church

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1

 

[MacDaddy]

Dear MacDaddy,
I think it is time something was cleared up. We Catholics tend to use the term “pray” a bit too freely and it is to our discredit. When we say “pray” we simply mean that we are talking to someone in heaven. We are not worshiping them or anything like that. We’re just talking (sometimes we talk a little too much ). Usually when a Catholic says he’s praying to Mary or a different saint, he really means he’s asking that saint to pray to GOD for his intention. Much like you would ask a loved one here on earth to pray for you. That’s all.

Are you an obedient Catholic? Your church clearly defines worship and it is a matter of the degree, higher for God, then Mary , then saints, stautes, relics etc.

Really doesn’t matter what you call it; what matters is what will God call it? Is it a violation of the first or second commandments? I don’t know with certainty; do you?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Are you an obedient Catholic? Your church clearly defines worship and it is a matter of the degree, higher for God, then Mary , then saints, stautes, relics etc.

Really doesn’t matter what you call it; what matters is what will God call it? Is it a violation of the first or second commandments? I don’t know with certainty; do you?

Again, you are in a bit over your head here.

We give latria to God alone, dulia to the saints, and hyperdulia to Mary.

We worship God; we honor or venerate the saints.

 

[MacDaddy]

First of all, every prayer is started and ended in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We Catholics pray the Our Father or Lord’s Prayer quite often. But let me ask you something. Is my little brother sinning when he prays, “Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep…” ?? It’s not the Lord’s Prayer. How about when I’m scared or nervous and all I can think of to say is “Please help me, GOD.” It’s not the Lord’s Prayer. Am I sinning? Even JESUS, in the Garden of Gethsamene prayed something other than the Lord’s Prayer. Was HE sinning? Of course not. JESUS didn’t mean that we can only pray the Lord’s Prayer, though it is certainly a good prayer to pray.
Now let me ask you something else. When I ask my mom to pass the salad at dinner, am I sinning? I didn’t ask GOD. But of course, that is absurd. So when I ask Mary to do something for me, am I sinning? If so, how so? We’re not worshiping her or replacing GOD or anything like that. We’re either asking a favor or asking her to pray to GOD for us. What’s wrong with that?

Pax!
Nicole

As I stated, Jesus gave a model, not a repetitive prayer; although you can pray it verbatim. Detraction from the core issue, which is who did Jesus us teach the Apostles to pray to and did Jesus set the example? Yes He did on both.

I’m not telling you not to pray to Mary or saints; that will and is between you and God.

 

[MacDaddy]

Never thought of it that way. But when I talk to the saints, I know that GOD will see that they get the message.

You seem to know God better than I, but for me and my household we pray to God alone according to the Son and Apostolic tradition.

 

[Randy_Carson]

As I stated, Jesus gave a model, not a repetitive prayer; although you can pray it verbatim. Detraction from the core issue, which is who did Jesus us teach the Apostles to pray to and did Jesus set the example? Yes He did on both.

Ah…the old “vain repetition” argument…I’ve not seen that one for awhile. Let’s look at scripture, shall we?

Matthew 6:7-8: Vain Repetition

Many non-Catholics believe that praying the rosary violates Jesus’ teaching about “vain repetition” found in His Sermon on the Mount:

---

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Immediately after saying this, He went on to teach the crowd the following prayer:

"This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’” (Matthew 6:9-13)

Jesus didn’t say, “You might want to say something like the following”…he said, “When you pray, say” and He gave us precise words that we should pray daily for our daily bread, and these words have been repeated for 2,000 years. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Matthew 26:43-44
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Jesus prayed a third time saying the same things he had said previously. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”

The creatures keep saying the same thing over and over and over again - day and night. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.