An Observation

[MacDaddy]

I can see your point and I almost agree with it. However, JESUS is one Person, two natures, correct? Now ask yourself: does a mother give birth to a nature, or a person?

Just something to chew on for a little while…

Pax!
Nicole

It is not the core issue; the issue is the exultation of Mary to at or near divine authority. Mother of all graces, co-mediatrix et al Using the capital “M” for mother indicates a title, not what she is as a “mother” and is a clear exultation of Mary as something more than a chosen vessel who is blessed forever as the Scripture states. It is not for me and I have questions about how God will view it; so I prefer to error on the side of caution.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The difference is you can ask someone who actually hears you through some form of communication, such as email or telephone; whereas God alone is omnipresent and omniscient; it is part of what makes Him God.

And since He allows us to participate in His own actions, there is no reason to believe that He does not allow the saints to hear and act on our requests for their intercession.

For you to ask Mary, you would need to resurrect her from the grave, which is also the power of God.

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

Therefore you pray to her with the belief that she is either omniscient and/or omnipresent, which prayer of this manner is a form of worship.

A false accusation. :tsktsk:

God can make Mary aware of our prayers and because she is outside of time as He is, she has "all the time in the world’ to answer each and every one of them.

Some of the prayers to Mary are asking for intercession in which she is to perform on behalf of the person praying where God is not involved at all; most do ask for intercession to or through God. Anyway, the only one that can hear your silent prayers is God.

Answered above. Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[MacDaddy]

This is completely false. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches the exact opposite. It is not necessary to be a formal member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. However, by virtue of your Christian baptism, you are a member of the Body of Christ which is properly the Catholic Church since Christ founded only one Church upon Peter, the rock.

Therefore, all those who are not formal member of the Catholic Church who are saved will be saved by virtue of their communion, albeit imperfect, with the Catholic Church, and you, my separated brother, are “Catholic” whether you know it or like it or not.

Here are better explanations:

Articles on Salvation Outside the Church

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark P. Shea
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=121&ed=1

I suppose that Atkins and Shea override what was spoken as dogma and bulls by the Popes and the Councils? You are the Catholic so if you say it is not as it reads, then stick with it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That was her point to the Catholic posters; she is the mother of Jesus the God-man, but not Mother of God with the capital “M”. In fact Mother of God seems blasphemous because the implication is that she birthed God. She gave birth to Jesus, who was already God.

Gee-

I’m gonna post this for the third time tonight…

Nestorianism

Nestorianism is the error that Jesus is two distinct persons. The heresy is named after Nestorius, who was born in Syria and died in 451 AD, who advocated this doctrine. Nestorius was a monk who became the Patriarch of Constantinople and he repudiated the Marian title “Mother of God.” He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human.

Nestorius was deposed as Patriarch and sent to Antioch, then Arabia, and then Egypt. Nestorianism survived until around 1300.

The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the “human person” then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.

carm.org/nestorianism

As MarysGirls asked, did Mary give birth to a person or to a nature?

 

[MacDaddy]

Again, you are in a bit over your head here.

We give latria to God alone, dulia to the saints, and hyperdulia to Mary.

We worship God; we honor or venerate the saints.

Ever heard of a synonym? Doesn’t matter what I think of it; it is not God who will judge?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I suppose that Atkins and Shea override what was spoken as dogma and bulls by the Popes and the Councils? You are the Catholic so if you say it is not as it reads, then stick with it.

How carefully did you read the articles?

They explained Unam Santcum very nicely.

Additionally, have you read Lumen Gentium or the Catechism which say the same things that I said?

Or are you simply unwilling to give up one of your favorite arguments against Catholicism?

 

[Padrej]

The difference is you can ask someone who actually hears you through some form of communication, such as email or telephone; whereas God alone is omnipresent and omniscient; it is part of what makes Him God. For you to ask Mary, you would need to resurrect her from the grave, which is also the power of God. Therefore you pray to her with the belief that she is either omniscient and/or omnipresent, which prayer of this manner is a form of worship. Some of the prayers to Mary are asking for intercession in which she is to perform on behalf of the person praying where God is not involved at all; most do ask for intercession to or through God. Anyway, the only one that can hear your silent prayers is God.

OK you claim that God alone can hear prayers. Have you actually studied scriptures where those who are already in Heaven are interceding for us? Revelation 6:9-10 speaks of the Saints in heaven crying out “how long till you avenge the blood of those who dwell on Earth.” Remember God is not a God of the Dead but of the LIVING, those are Jesus’ own words.
Maybe you should read this article.
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011sbs.asp

Some Christians say that Jesus’ parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 indicates the ability of the dead to pray for the living. Paul’s repeated references to Jesus Christ as “advocate” for the believers also indicates that Jesus, living at the right hand of God, may intercede for the believer. (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25) By extension, other holy people who are living in Christ on earth or in heaven (having left their earthly existence) may be able to intercede-through Christ- on behalf of the petitioner. (John 11:25; Romans 8:38-39) This is a controversial doctrine because in some faiths only Jesus is holy enough to intercede for people. From the Roman Catholic, the Orthodox, as well as the Anglican (of which I am) perspective: if those living here on earth can intercede on behalf of each other, then those already glorified in heaven, and even closer “in Christ”, are made holy as “one” unified through him (the mediator between God and men- on earth and heaven) by his sacrifice, can certainly intercede for those on earth as well. (Hebrews 2:11 and Hebrews 10:10

Traditional Lutheran belief accounts that saints pray for the Church in general, but are not mediators of redemption. Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism, approved honoring the saints by saying they are honored in three ways: firstly by thanking God for examples of His mercy; secondly by using the saints as example for strengthening our faith, and thirdly by imitating their faith and other virtues.

Let me put it this way, When your grandparents died, (if they have already passed) did their prayers for you and your family immediately stop getting answered the second their heart stopped? I hardly think so. My grandmother died in the 70’s and prayers she prayed for me are still being answered. The Bible tells us the “gifts of God are without repentance” so when God gave us that gift of prayer, I highly doubt it ended the moment we enter Glory but that we as the book of Revelation implies by the saints crying out to God continue to intercede for us.

 

[MacDaddy]

Ah…the old “vain repetition” argument…I’ve not seen that one for awhile. Let’s look at scripture, shall we?

Matthew 6:7-8: Vain Repetition

Many non-Catholics believe that praying the rosary violates Jesus’ teaching about “vain repetition” found in His Sermon on the Mount:

---

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Immediately after saying this, He went on to teach the crowd the following prayer:

"This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’” (Matthew 6:9-13)

Jesus didn’t say, “You might want to say something like the following”…he said, “When you pray, say” and He gave us precise words that we should pray daily for our daily bread, and these words have been repeated for 2,000 years. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Matthew 26:43-44
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Jesus prayed a third time saying the same things he had said previously. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”

The creatures keep saying the same thing over and over and over again - day and night. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Pretty good Randy, make up your own argument, then argue with yourself - that is original. I’m not arguing a repetitive prayer, I believe we all are repetitive at times in our prayer life especially when you are brand new Christians or you are teaching your children memorization. The Lord’s Prayer should be considered a model prayer, but can be used as it is. The heart’s intent is what God seeks after.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ever heard of a synonym? Doesn’t matter what I think of it; it is not God who will judge?

That’s fine. We honor Mary as imitators of Christ.

He honored His mother before we did.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Pretty good Randy, make up your own argument, then argue with yourself - that is original. I’m not arguing a repetitive prayer, I believe we all are repetitive at times in our prayer life especially when you are brand new Christians or you are teaching your children memorization. The Lord’s Prayer should be considered a model prayer, but can be used as it is. The heart’s intent is what God seeks after.

If you were not making an allusion to the Rosary (in a thread that is supposed to be about prayer to Mary and the Saints), then please forgive me for anticipating a common argument/attack.

 

[MacDaddy]

And since He allows us to participate in His own actions, there is no reason to believe that He does not allow the saints to hear and act on our requests for their intercession.

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

A false accusation. :tsktsk:

God can make Mary aware of our prayers and because she is outside of time as He is, she has "all the time in the world’ to answer each and every one of them.

Answered above. Hope this helps. :tiphat:

That was not a false accusation, prayer is a form of worship and that is a fact. When I pray to God I am recognizing His omnipresence and omniscience and depending what the prayer is; I may also being recognizing His omnipotence. This gives Him honor, veneration and glory. I’m sorry you do not see prayer as a form of worship, so I understand your hostility and I apologize for offending you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That was not a false accusation, prayer is a form of worship and that is a fact. When I pray to God I am recognizing His omnipresence and omniscience and depending what the prayer is; I may also being recognizing His omnipotence. This gives Him honor, veneration and glory. I’m sorry you do not see prayer as a form of worship, so I understand your hostility and I apologize for offending you.

Some prayer is worship. Other forms of prayer include thanksgiving, intercession, listening or simply talking to God.

Not all of that is unique to communication with God as an omniscient, omnipresent being.

Catholics worship God alone, and you know this. Therefore, to suggest otherwise is to bear false witness against your brothers and sisters in violation of the ninth commandment.

 

[MacDaddy]

Gee-

I’m gonna post this for the third time tonight…

Nestorianism

Nestorianism is the error that Jesus is two distinct persons. The heresy is named after Nestorius, who was born in Syria and died in 451 AD, who advocated this doctrine. Nestorius was a monk who became the Patriarch of Constantinople and he repudiated the Marian title “Mother of God.” He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human.

Nestorius was deposed as Patriarch and sent to Antioch, then Arabia, and then Egypt. Nestorianism survived until around 1300.

The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the “human person” then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.

carm.org/nestorianism

As MarysGirls asked, did Mary give birth to a person or to a nature?

I wonder what would happen if I called you a heretic? Because that is exactly what you have done for the third time. Why? Because you know that we are only distinguishing the exaltation of Mary as “Mother” as opposed to “mother”. Every Christian knows Jesus is fully God and fully man.

 

[MacDaddy]

How carefully did you read the articles?

They explained Unam Santcum very nicely.

Additionally, have you read Lumen Gentium or the Catechism which say the same things that I said?

Or are you simply unwilling to give up one of your favorite arguments against Catholicism?

I have read so much information on Catholicism, much I can’t even discern, over the past 3-4 days now, that is what I have spent a good deal of my time when I have not been logged in.

I would like to see the pre Vatican II catechism, can you provide a link to that?

 

[Padrej]

Are you an obedient Catholic? Your church clearly defines worship and it is a matter of the degree, higher for God, then Mary , then saints, stautes, relics etc.

Really doesn’t matter what you call it; what matters is what will God call it? Is it a violation of the first or second commandments? I don’t know with certainty; do you?

Funny after reading your posts, especially this one you must have ignored this.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Funny those Catholic specks are rather tiny compared to your plank.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wonder what would happen if I called you a heretic? Because that is exactly what you have done for the third time. Why? Because you know that we are only distinguishing the exaltation of Mary as “Mother” as opposed to “mother”. Every Christian knows Jesus is fully God and fully man.

And referriing to Mary as the Mother of God protects that truth.

Do you see that?

Nestorius and his followers denied the Christological truths of the Incarnation. Those who deny that Mary is the mother of a person, Jesus, who is God, are falling into the same error…or walking very close to the edge.

Doctrinal precision is very important, is it not?

 

[crm114]

catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/trentc.htm

 

[MacDaddy]

OK you claim that God alone can hear prayers. Have you actually studied scriptures where those who are already in Heaven are interceding for us? Revelation 6:9-10 speaks of the Saints in heaven crying out “how long till you avenge the blood of those who dwell on Earth.” Remember God is not a God of the Dead but of the LIVING, those are Jesus’ own words.
Maybe you should read this article.
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011sbs.asp

Some Christians say that Jesus’ parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 indicates the ability of the dead to pray for the living. Paul’s repeated references to Jesus Christ as “advocate” for the believers also indicates that Jesus, living at the right hand of God, may intercede for the believer. (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25) By extension, other holy people who are living in Christ on earth or in heaven (having left their earthly existence) may be able to intercede-through Christ- on behalf of the petitioner. (John 11:25; Romans 8:38-39) This is a controversial doctrine because in some faiths only Jesus is holy enough to intercede for people. From the Roman Catholic, the Orthodox, as well as the Anglican (of which I am) perspective: if those living here on earth can intercede on behalf of each other, then those already glorified in heaven, and even closer “in Christ”, are made holy as “one” unified through him (the mediator between God and men- on earth and heaven) by his sacrifice, can certainly intercede for those on earth as well. (Hebrews 2:11 and Hebrews 10:10

Traditional Lutheran belief accounts that saints pray for the Church in general, but are not mediators of redemption. Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism, approved honoring the saints by saying they are honored in three ways: firstly by thanking God for examples of His mercy; secondly by using the saints as example for strengthening our faith, and thirdly by imitating their faith and other virtues.

Let me put it this way, When your grandparents died, (if they have already passed) did their prayers for you and your family immediately stop getting answered the second their heart stopped? I hardly think so. My grandmother died in the 70’s and prayers she prayed for me are still being answered. The Bible tells us the “gifts of God are without repentance” so when God gave us that gift of prayer, I highly doubt it ended the moment we enter Glory but that we as the book of Revelation implies by the saints crying out to God continue to intercede for us.

Where is the church in chapter 6 of Revelation? Was what was written in the seals added as they opened or being written in after being open? What is actually being asked? How much longer before you wrap it up?

Psalms 9:11-13
11 Sing praises to the LORD, who dwells in Zion; Declare among the peoples His deeds. 12 For He who requires blood remembers them; He does not forget the cry of the afflicted. 13 Be gracious to me, O LORD; See my affliction from those who hate me, You who lift me up from the gates of death,

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have read so much information on Catholicism, much I can’t even discern, over the past 3-4 days now, that is what I have spent a good deal of my time when I have not been logged in.

Well, if you are overwhelmed, why not ask some honest questions and listen to the answers from the forum members. We’re actually cute, cuddly and eager to explain our faith. Well, the eager part, any way.

I would like to see the pre Vatican II catechism, can you provide a link to that?

catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where is the church in chapter 6 of Revelation? Was what was written in the seals added as they opened or being written in after being open? What is actually being asked? How much longer before you wrap it up?

Psalms 9:11-13
11 Sing praises to the LORD, who dwells in Zion; Declare among the peoples His deeds. 12 For He who requires blood remembers them; He does not forget the cry of the afflicted. 13 Be gracious to me, O LORD; See my affliction from those who hate me, You who lift me up from the gates of death,