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crm114
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MacDaddy
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I think both of you need to go back and reread what was actually said. I asked when are the seals opened in chapter 6; before, during or after the tribulation. I said during and these were the cries of those during the tribulation; so please correct me in where I am wrong? I stand firm in the Word.I would LOVE to see MacDaddy try to explain Rev. 6 verses Rev. 7 as you point out.
Thank you for taking care of my light work Fr John.
Pr 11:2
When pride comes, then comes dishonor, But with the humble is wisdom.
Pr 16:18
Pride {goes} before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling.
Pr 29:23
A man’s pride will bring him low, But a humble spirit will obtain honor.
Something we all should meditate on.
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MacDaddy
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Thank for for the technical correction, but Protestant church of England I thnk is a bit over the top.
Henry wrote a book On The Seven Sacraments, a defense of traditional doctrines against the teachings of Martin Luther. (The Pope rewarded him with the title, “Defender of the Faith,” a title born to this day by English monarchs.) More, discussing the book with Henry while it was still in rough draft, said, “I am troubled, because the book seems to me to give too much honor to the Pope.” Henry replied, "There is no such thing as giving too much honor to the Pope." source
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MacDaddy
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go to the posters profile and look for the drop down menues below the name and one is a selection of “add to ignore list”
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Dancelittleewok
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I believe this was already dealt with by another poster, possibly Randy. It is through God that Mary hears our prayers and Mary prays to God. It’s not like we pray to Mary and are unheard by God. In Heaven, there is no time. Those in Heaven aren’t under the same constraints are we are. One need not to be divine to hear prayers.
Since you know that hyperdulia and dulia are dependent on latria (meaning their prayers are an indirect way to God), then why do you question if seeking Mary’s intercession equates we view her as divine?
If you are referring to this article, it defines worship as homage. We can even see this usage given to Emperors, Kings, Queen, even Star Wars Princess i.e Han saying “Your Worship” to Princess Leia. From what I’ve seen, Protestants have only latria and thus seen any prayers to the saints as such when Catholics make distinctions. Yes, Catholics worship Mary but it would be dishonest to say that we use worship in the same way as Protestants do.
On one hand, you say I can’t judge your hearts and you can decide if your violating God in some way but in your first question you question if we have. What gives?
Like I said, it’s a moot point. Catholics aren’t worshiping Mary in the Protestant sense in the word. Mary isn’t divine or has divine qualities. You’re going to have to debate Catholicism on its own merits, not if what you think are the beliefs.
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rovimax
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:yup::clapping: Bravo!I believe this was already dealt with by another poster, possibly Randy. It is through God that Mary hears our prayers and Mary prays to God. It’s not like we pray to Mary and are unheard by God. In Heaven, there is no time. Those in Heaven aren’t under the same constraints are we are. One need not to be divine to hear prayers.
Since you know that hyperdulia and dulia are dependent on latria (meaning their prayers are an indirect way to God), then why do you question if seeking Mary’s intercession equates we view her as divine?
If you are referring to this article, it defines worship as homage. We can even see this usage given to Emperors, Kings, Queen, even Star Wars Princess i.e Han saying “Your Worship” to Princess Leia. From what I’ve seen, Protestants have only latria and thus seen any prayers to the saints as such when Catholics make distinctions. Yes, Catholics worship Mary but it would be dishonest to say that we use worship in the same way as Protestants do.
On one hand, you say I can’t judge your hearts and you can decide if your violating God in some way but in your first question you question if we have. What gives?
Like I said, it’s a moot point. Catholics aren’t worshiping Mary in the Protestant sense in the word. Mary isn’t divine or has divine qualities. You’re going to have to debate Catholicism on its own merits, not if what you think are the beliefs.
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dcrowmik
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In a post quite a few pages back (before you started participating in this discussion), the question was asked of Fair Lady if she has ever prayed to God on behalf of living friends, relatives, etc. or asked them to pray for her (intercessory prayer). She answered in the affirmative then gave a whole bunch of nice scriptural quotes to back that up. Good.
She then went on to say she would NEVER ask those same people to pray on her behalf once they have died (nor would she ever ask angels to do so either). However, after being asked a few times she was never able to give any scriptural evidence to back up that viewpoint. Now that you have stated the same thing a couple times, could you be so kind as to provide scripture references spelling out your viewpoint on this. Thanks.
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Dancelittleewok
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MacDaddy
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He may have explained it that way, but that is not what the Church said in the article. If that is the case, the the prayer would be Father in heaven please ask Mary to intercede on our behalf. I have not yet seen a prayer involving Mary that remotely resembles that model.I believe this was already dealt with by another poster, possibly Randy. It is through God that Mary hears our prayers and Mary prays to God. It’s not like we pray to Mary and are unheard by God. In Heaven, there is no time. Those in Heaven aren’t under the same constraints are we are. One need not to be divine to hear prayers.
Since you know that hyperdulia and dulia are dependent on latria (meaning their prayers are an indirect way to God), then why do you question if seeking Mary’s intercession equates we view her as divine?
If you are referring to this article, it defines worship as homage. We can even see this usage given to Emperors, Kings, Queen, even Star Wars Princess i.e Han saying “Your Worship” to Princess Leia. From what I’ve seen, Protestants have only latria and thus seen any prayers to the saints as such when Catholics make distinctions. Yes, Catholics worship Mary but it would be dishonest to say that we use worship in the same way as Protestants do.
On one hand, you say I can’t judge your hearts and you can decide if your violating God in some way but in your first question you question if we have. What gives?
Like I said, it’s a moot point. Catholics aren’t worshiping Mary in the Protestant sense in the word. Mary isn’t divine or has divine qualities. You’re going to have to debate Catholicism on its own merits, not if what you think are the beliefs.
I have debated on the merits and some has made not and are now calling it what the church teaches. You cannot deny the use of divine qualities when you pray to Mary or another saint, omniscience and omnipresence are attributes that belong only to God.
Like I said before; it is your business and I am only pointing to that which I have learned and showing you what I have learned and to explain it in a contextual manner and provide the links for the information. Some have agreed.
I’m pretty much done with what I have learned and shared and I’m sure this topic will come along again so as I gain a more and complete understanding to the use of prayer in relation to saints and Mary, statutes and relics I might have more to add later.
God bless and good day.
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rovimax
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Can you tell us how you ended up with your Bible? Did the Holy Spirit drop it in your front door? In Acts 8:26-40 The Ethiopian official needed help to understand the Scriptures. He was helped by Philip one of the the Apostles who were commisioned by Jesus to spread the Good News? If you were an atheist and don’t know God and somebody gave you a Bible would you believe it is the word of God immediately? Somebody was first used by the Holy Spirit before you learn about God. Who even told you that the Bible was the word of God? Muslims claim that the Koran is the word of God, the Mormons claim that The Book of Mormons came from God, the Hindus and Budhists believe the same. So why the Bible and not the Koran? Aren’t the first Christians with the help of the Holy Spirit told our forefathers that the Bible is inspired by God. The Bible did not even said which translation to use.S o before quoting the Holy Scriptures, may you please ask yourself are you really representing the will of God or your own convenience of faith?
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MacDaddy
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Right below the person name on the persons profile page, you will see “Users List”. Click on it and a menu drops down and the last choice is “Add to Ignore List”, click that and the rest is simple.
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MacDaddy
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I already have in this thread. It si not hard. The Apostles asked Jesus in what manner should we pray and Jesus answered them with the Lord’s prayer, which is a model of how we ought to pray, and Jesus always prayed to the Father, never to Moses, Issac or any one else but the Father, so we have a clear example from Jesus Himself.
Matthew 5 (Jesus speaking to the multitude)
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees {what is done} in secret will reward you… 8 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him 9 "Pray, then, in this way:
Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come.Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
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Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’
14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Luke 11:1-13 - [Verse 1 in Original Greek]
1 It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.” 2 And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. 3 'Give us each day our daily bread. 4 ‘And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’ " 5 Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and from inside he answers and says, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you {anything.}’ 8 "I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him {anything} because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs. 9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. - This last part is the teaching on being bold with our prayers.
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MacDaddy
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The distraction is the technical error using Tyndale, the point remains the same as the original posters said, that in effect the Church withheld the Bible and at one time pronounced a curse on any one possessing one that was not in Latin, which very few laity understood and many others in authority did not understand; this in it effect was holding back the word of God, but in a technical fashion, you could say it is not entirely true.
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MacDaddy
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I went to the store and bought mine and have had the Holy Spirit lead others to sent me a Bible. What about you, how did you get your Bible(s)?
Please tell us what the will of God is; I like asking that because few people study his word enough to even know, but He does not hide it. I say that because my hope is you will search the Scripture and find out exactly what His will is. Use keyword surches for “will”, “will of” and “desires” and any similar words you can think of and you will be amazed at what you discover. Have fun at it as well.
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Dancelittleewok
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Really? What I said wasn’t in support the article, which you cited, as Church teaching…
The fact that the Church makes this distinction shows that Mary isn’t divine, nor is she to be given latria worship. If any person does that, he is guilty of idolatry and that it is the greatest of mortal sins due to violation of the first Commandment. It seems to mean that you are trying to prove that Catholics worship Mary in the latria sense by using Church sources about worship when in fact these sources deny that any latria worship is to be given to Mary.
Like I said before, she isn’t divine, and she need not to be divine to hear prayer. See my explanation in the previous post. If she hears prayers, it is God’s doing, not her own hence why there are no such prayers like you’ve mentioned because how Mary hears them is understood.
I challenge you to find me a reliable Catholic source that says Mary is divine or has divine qualities. You are welcome to debate this, depending on your degree of solipism, but you will not find any support in the Church.
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Dancelittleewok
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Would you want to read a Bible promoted by this heresy? You are aware that Latin began as a vernacular and missals have both latin and any vernacular translation, right? Furthermore, the Church has promoted indulgences for reading the Bible. The Liturgy of the Hours using mostly the Psalms as well as other passages from the Bible. In the Mass, we hear the Liturgy of the Word (which covers both OT and NT) and a Psalm in between. Every Mass the priest consecrates the Host using the same words as Jesus in the last supper…
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Des
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That’s exactly what the Church said in the article.
That’s your problem. You can’t wrap that brain of yours around the fact that God, if He chooses, may allow the human race or even the Angels to have certain qualities of His. You ever hear of free will? How about an eternal Spirit? Maybe we’re under the illusion of having those too huh.
I suspect you’re here just to be a pest as I read your many trivial posts concerning this issue because deep down, I’m positive you really do know what we mean by the differences of worship we give to God, Mary, the Angels and Saints. Of course this is only if you let go of your bias and personal dogma of what God can and can’t share with His creatures. Then amazingly because of this, you distort what the Church says in that link by forcing your own context to it. You intentionally attempt to confuse things which are extremely easy to understand. The reality is, the Catholics on here don’t need you to tell us what the Church is saying. Thanks but no thanks.
Only to God? You really think God can’t share this with those in Heaven if He desires to do so? Prove it!
You interpret what the Church teaches as poorly as you do the Bible. But I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised by this. Remove your fallible dogma and see the light.
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rovimax
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You did not answer some part of my question? Why the Bible and not the Koran? You’ll be amazed how God was revered in the Islamic book and the teachings are very attractive.I went to the store and bought mine and have had the Holy Spirit lead others to sent me a Bible. What about you, how did you get your Bible(s)?
Please tell us what the will of God is; I like asking that because few people study his word enough to even know, but He does not hide it. I say that because my hope is you will search the Scripture and find out exactly what His will is. Use keyword surches for “will”, “will of” and “desires” and any similar words you can think of and you will be amazed at what you discover. Have fun at it as well.
Who told you to buy the Bible? Is it by instinct, is it by others testimony? If I am a pagan and know nothing about Jesus how will I know which Bible translation to choose from the bookstore? Maybe the recomendation of the sales clerk? And if she’s catholic I will be ending up reading a catholic translation?We should also remember that even satan used the scriptures to tempt our Lord so how am I supposed to know if it is really the Holy spirit guiding me?These are just thoughts.
My first Bible was from Evangelicals with The Gideons markings ( KJV ) edition. I was reading a Protestant bible for more than ten years before I bought my first Bible Good News Bible ( Todays English Version with Deuterocanonicals) , Its starting to worn out and my eyes started to blur so my wife bought me 2 years ago a bigger one NRSV CE.
There are many things that we can read and give our own interpretation of verses in scriptures. John 3:16 is a classic example that when someone reads it says that there’s nothing to do anymore all I have to do is believe. Is it? This is my personal belief, all things on Heaven and earth are born out of God’s love. And because of His love He wants all men to be saved and come to know the truth. This love is the very reason why Jesus came into the world to save sinners like me and others who admits they have sinned.
Just an opinion…If we really wanted to worship God, we must do ***everything *** out of love. He can not save us if we refuse to be saved. You are right God is not hiding his will to save us, but are we doing our part to be saved. Are we obeying his will? Are we mercenaries doing the things he wanted because of the reward waiting for us? Are we slaves doing everything He tells us because we fear his wrath. Are we children of God because we do the things we do because we love him? :bounce:
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LittleSoldier
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Who cares if pagans believed that souls go to heaven at death? What makes you think they are wrong if they teach this? What is wrong about pagan worship is that it is against the First Commandment. We are to worship God, and only God. You are being extremely illogical here. If a pagan religion states, uh, the earth revolves around the sun, then we can’t believe that because it originated in a pagan religion? Please try to make sense. Also, it would really help if you provided references for thoughts and beliefs that you accept, but are not originally your own. As far as your idea that the soul does not enter heaven at death, please read the following Scripture:
And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying if thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither does thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done no evil. And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come unto thy kingdom.
And Jesus said to him: Amen, I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
(Luke 23:39-43, Douay-Rheims Bible)
Jesus didn’t say “You will go to sleep and when I come back I will awaken you.” Jesus forgave the thief’s sins and the thief was then pure and able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven at his death, not after going to sleep for a period of time. It happened the same day. And why shouldn’t it? Why do you try to limit God’s power?? God can (and does) forgive us ALL our sins and makes us pure.
Reference, please.
Reference, please.
Reference, please.
We would indeed be corrupting the Temple of God if we entered it with guilt and sin on our souls. Perfection cannot exist with non-perfection. That is one of the problems with sola fide. Our souls must be purified before we can enter Heaven and be with God. I have never said that I can even imagine corrupting Heaven. In fact, I can’t corrupt Heaven because as a sinner, I am not in Heaven. Only because Jesus gave His life for me and was Resurrected can I enter Heaven. God forgives us because He loves us.
Either provide some references (puhleeze) or stop indicating you are privy to Jesus’ thoughts. Sheesh!!
This is off topic. I have allowed you to hijack the thread and draw me off topic. I respectfully decline to respond to you further, as I only agreed to respond to the OP. If you want to start a new thread, please feel free to do so. I don’t have time to discuss this with you, especially if I’m supposed to find these references you haven’t bothered to list.
The topic is an observation made by Fair Lady that Catholics pray to Mary and give glory to her and somehow this is non-scriptural. That is what I was discussing and I won’t let you take me off topic again.
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LittleSoldier
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For Pete’s sake, Fair Lady, why don’t you answer Kay Cee (and me, by default). None of the Scripture you have provided here says anything about praying to Mary (or the saints, for that matter. But, once again, you add to Scripture. Are you preparing yourself for the plagues you will receive when you add to Scripture (at least according to the website for which you provided the link)? Why do you continue to add to Scripture? Why can’t you see that you are doing this? Look at your comments - please look at them carefully and maybe you will be able to see that you have made some rather broad jumps from what the Scripture passage actually says and what you say it says. In fact, I’ve bolded the parts of your comments where you have added to Scripture.
Defending sola scriptura while not adhering to sola scriptura doesn’t make any sense at all.
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