Analysis: Why 'Pachamama' took a dip

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cathoholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cathoholic

Guest

Analysis: Why ‘Pachamama’ took a dip​

A statue displayed in Santa Maria in Traspontina. Credit: CNA
Click to expand...

A statue displayed in Santa Maria in Traspontina. Credit: CNA

By JD Flynn

Vatican City, Oct 26, 2019 / 10:21 am (CNA).- Last week, Vatican Media interviewed Fr. Paulo Suess, a German priest who has served for decades among the indigenous peoples of the Amazon. Fr. Suess is in Rome as an official of the Synod of Bishops on the Amazon, and is regarded there as an expert on the region. . . .

. . . Someone wrote that it was a pagan rite,” Fr. Suess responded.

“So what?”

“Even if that had been a pagan rite, what took place was still a worship service. A rite always has something to do with worship. Paganism cannot be dismissed as nothing. . . .

. . . Vatican Media eventually removed those comments from its interview with the priest, with no note or indication of the redaction.

Anyone who wants to understand how the Vatican’s synod of bishops on the Amazon has become such a flashpoint for controversy, or why five carved statues were removed from a Roman church and tossed into the Tiber River, should think carefully about Fr. Suess’ comments, and their publication by the official media organ . . .
 
Pachamama took a dip because of a mob mentality.

CNA’s article describes how it happened, but doesn’t really address why it happened. I’m going with mob mentality. The events that fomented the Pachamama swim happened on the internet so I think this new form of mob mentality deserves a modern name. How about online riot, armchair anarchist, knee-jerk justice, keyboard vigilante, algorithm war, social media litigation?
 
Last edited:
1Lord1Faith . . .
Pachamama took a dip because of a mob mentality.
Click to expand...
How do you know?

How are you given to know the motives of the “mob” that did this?
 
Last edited:
That’s how I would succinctly describe why the statue took a swim. Maybe another term may be better though.

The motives of most mobs are usually rooted in fear and ignorance.
 
1Lord1Faith . . .
That’s how I would succinctly . . .
Click to expand...
It is irrelevant how succinct you are or are not.

If you want, you can even be wordy.

But what I want to know
(and you can be succinct or you can be wordy. I am fine with either way)
is HOW you seem to know the motives
of apparently two people, or this “mob” that you have deciphered?

How do you know?
 
Last edited:
To sum this article up, nobody in the Vatican or the synod cared what they were or what was going on, pagan or not, nor did they care about Catholics’ concerns. Sounds about right.

Most sacred heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
 
The point is, even if it was fear and ignorance, our pastors didn’t care about even trying to dispel it or ease consciences as the article notes. They took a “so what” attitude to the statues and rites and a haughty attitude toward those who had concerns about it. If anything, their responses and attitudes only furthered what ignorance their might have been (probably less than they think) and justified that fear further.
 
Last edited:
I liked this article.

Honestly, here is my humble opinion. Are they actually Pachamama idols? I don’t know for sure. I have heard compeling evidence on both sides of the case.

But I am scandalized by the lack of concern for the sin of scandal in this case. By all intents and means, it sure looks like idols. Google “Pachamama” on Google images. It is not hard to see the resemblence between the images that show up and the statues. It doesn’t help when people seem to treat them as idols. No does is help when Pope Francis allegedly calls it a “Pachamama”.

My point is that, even if they are not idols, much, much more caution should have been exercised, because to most people, they seem like they are.

I once heard a priest say that he rarely, if ever, goes to the bar by himself. It isn’t because he is an alcoholic. It is because he is concerned with giving the drunk partyers around him the impression that he supports, or may even be participating in, their drunken party. This concern of giving the appearance of supporting something wrong is the same reason why two Catholics who are immaculately chaste should not shack up before marriage. Because in a culture where everyone shacks up and has sex before receiving the Sacrament, many will assume that Catholic Bob and Sally must be okay with having sex before marriage.

I don’t know why the Vatican allowed all this to happen without considering this. I could never see any of this going down 100 years ago. Overall, it is very hard not to feel betrayed by the lack of leadership here.
 
Last edited:

Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the pachamama statues that were removed . . . --Pope Francis​

.

.
NEWS CATHOLIC CHURCH Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 1:56 pm EST

Full transcript of the Pope’s comments on pagan ‘Pachamama’ statues​

LifeSiteNews.com

ROME, October 25, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – In a statement issued today to participants at the Amazon Synod, and recorded by reporters, Pope Francis identifies the controversial statues used in the Synod as “Pachamama,” the Incan fertility goddess.

The Vatican subsequently sent out a transcript to reporters, including LifeSite, of the Pope’s remarks. The text of the transcript below is a translation by LifeSite Rome correspondent Diane Montagna.

Full transcript of Pope’s remarks on ‘Pachamama’ statues​

Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the pachamama statues that were removed from the Church at Traspontina . . . .
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

.

Pope Francis just matter-of-factly acknowledges these were “pachamama statues”.
 
Last edited:
I will also add that it is greatly scandalizing to actual, potential converts. There is a committed and zealous Evangelical in my life that I am trying to draw into the Church. Boy, I can’t imagine trying to explain this mess. Anyone with the mentality that the Catholic Church worships idols just got a ton of fuel for their attacks.

And what about our separated Eastern brethren? To me, and maybe I just don’t see the whole picture, but we don’t seem to keep them in mind nearly enough when it comes to liturgy (a whole other discussion), practice, etc. I know of at least one Eastern Catholic in my life who is having major, major doubts in some of the practices and statements following Vatican II. I pray for his soul, because sometimes I fear he is in danger of joining the Orthodox (who admittedly have their own doctrinal problems besides just the Pope. e.g. birth control). Nonetheless, this probably only added to his doubts.

Just look at Rod Dreher’s, a former Catholic turned Orthodox, commentary on this. The Pachamama Pope | The American Conservative

Traditionalist Catholics in union with Rome also need to be considered. Regina Magazine just stopped referring to Pope Francis as Pope. Admittedly, they were pretty radical beforehand, but that is a major, major step in the wrong direction for them. Are they sedes now?
 
Last edited:

The goddess pachamama . . . .​

Pachamama is a goddess revered by the indigenous people of the Andes. She is also known as the earth/time mother.[1] In Inca mythology, Pachamama is a fertility goddess who presides over planting and harvesting, embodies the mountains, and causes earthquakes. She is also an ever-present and independent deity who has her own self-sufficient and creative power to sustain life on this earth.[1] Her shrines are hallowed rocks, or the boles of legendary trees, and her artists envision her as an adult female bearing harvests of potatoes and coca leaves.[2] The four cosmological Quechua principles – Water, Earth, Sun, and Moon[2] – claim Pachamama as their prime origin. Priests sacrifice llamas, cuy (guinea pigs), and elaborate, miniature, burned garments to her.[3] Pachamama is the mother of Inti the sun god and Mama Killa the moon goddess. Pachamama is said to also be the wife of Inti, her son. . . . .
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Most popes retain a solid minority of top officials who see things differently from them. That way they pick some unfamiliar good ideas, and they avoid certain blunders that they or their clones missed.

Pope Francis surrounds himself with clones.
Conservatives, like Burke, Vigano, and Schneider and many others write documents that get no response or answers, in effect their ideas get thrown by the Vatican in the river.

So now some idols join the dubias in the river. Where did the Laity get that idea of dismissing things from?

I think that river will get crowded soon, as both sides strike back
 
Last edited:
Cathoholic said:
HOW you seem to know the motives
of apparently two people, or this “mob” that you have deciphered?
Click to expand...
The article isn’t about the individuals who tossed the statues in the river. So my comment wasn’t about that either.

The ‘mob’ I referred to is all of the social media warriors who fomented the situation.

For example:
commenter said:
So now some idols join the dubias in the river. Where did the Laity get that idea of dismissing things from?

I think that river will get crowded soon, as both sides strike back
Click to expand...
 
1Lord1Faith . . .
The ‘mob’ I referred to is all of the social media warriors who fomented the situation.
Click to expand...
OK. Fair enough. But how do you know at this point, that the motive was fomented by anything other than “righteous indignation” . . . or a “bet”, or some other motive?
 
Last edited:
Cathoholic said:
how do you know at this point, that the motive was fomented by anything other than “righteous indignation”
Click to expand...
The fact that so many media outlets, bloggers and SMW (social media warriors) jumped on the ‘pagan idol worship’ bandwagon so soon. There wasn’t much of any benefit of the doubt given to the ceremony. It’s still not clear what exactly the synod’s opening ceremony signified, but that still hasn’t stopped people from a rash judgement of the Pope. Those things don’t add up to righteous indignation. But they are more like self righteous indignation. And that’s the way a mob mentality works, through self righteousness which is usually based in fear and ignorance.

If a full video of the Covington Catholic incident had not come out Nick Sandman would not have been saved from the social media mob.

Why is there so much condemnation coming from Catholics when the pope himself has said there was no idol worship. Are they calling the pope a liar?
 
Last edited:
1Lord1Faith . . .
The fact that so many media outlets, bloggers and SMW (social media warriors) jumped on the ‘pagan idol worship’ bandwagon so soon. There wasn’t much of any benefit of the doubt given to the ceremony.
Click to expand...
Bold mine.

OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

But what about “any benefit of the doubt given to” the people who did this?

You seem to have their motive pegged as mob-induced?

Maybe their motives were something higher like “righteous indignation”?
 
Last edited:
1Lord1Faith said:
The ‘mob’ I referred to is all of the social media warriors who fomented the situation.
For example:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) commenter:
So now some idols join the dubias in the river. Where did the Laity get that idea of dismissing things from?

I think that river will get crowded soon, as both sides strike back
Click to expand...
At 70, barely able to handle Facebook, I’m suddenly a social media warrior? I couldn’t even foment a chess game. I tried to put an action in a larger context.
Click to expand...
 
Cathoholic said:
Maybe their motives were something higher like “righteous indignation”?
Click to expand...
I already explained why I don’t think any indignation on the part of the social media, or even the two individuals, could have been righteous. So, I’m going to go with self righteous indignation on this one.
 
Last edited:
These idols are scandalous to the faithful. The hirearchy themselves even said it isn’t a catholic statue. It represents creation (literal “mother earth”) and people are bowing down to it. An Amazonian chief even said that the garden ritual was 100% pagan.

So we have the hirearchy being vauge as ever, an Amazonian cheif calling it pagan what do you think people will start to think? Faithful Catholics have read in the bible the last time the clergy let idols in the temple, God left Israel and allowed them to be captured back into slavery. No one wants that. Since the clergy are doing nothing about it, the laity had to act.

To not act would only be enabling these people in their idolatry twords the earth. Pope Francis himself even called them “pachamama statues”. How this is not considered idolatry is beyond me.

Care to explain how it isn’t idolatry to have idols that represent “life” “fertility” and “mother earth” and have people bow down twords it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top