Ancestry.com and the Mormon Church

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Took years because all that time, may be because people did not know what the temples were used for…?..as non-Mormons were not allowed in…

Still, it makes me wonder…and then reading a few years back…how the Mormons found a ‘treasure trove of sacramental records’ of priests and religious…then the Vatican found out…
 
KathleenGee said:
Took years because all that time, may be because people did not know what the temples were used for…?..as non-Mormons were not allowed in…

Still, it makes me wonder…and then reading a few years back…how the Mormons found a ‘treasure trove of sacramental records’ of priests and religious…then the Vatican found out…
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Mormons weren’t allowed in Italy to proselytize until relatively recently. Missionaries hanging around St. Peter’s may have got the attention of someone. I hear anecdotal stories, of missionaries placing Mormon tracts in Catholic churches, setting up tables outside of churches, that sort of thing. The stories include geting noticed by people working and living at the Vatican. People ask questions, want to know who they are and what they’re up to.

I don’t know that Mormons here understand the close ties that exist to people at the Vatican. I know I had no idea until I became Catholic.
 
KathleenGee said:
Going back, why were Catholic parishes allowing sacramental records to go out for non-Catholic organizations?

My deceased grandfather never revealed much of his past. His was the family secret…I heard he became a Catholic the day before his wedding to my grandmother. I called the town where they were married, and the sacramental baptismal records in the parish then revealed to us his parents’ identity. Apparently, from other information, he left an dysfunctional and unhappy home when he was 15. We offered a Mass for him and for his peace, and we all experienced a sense of holiness among us…
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From what I have seen there are no Bapismal records on Ancestry.com. In fact most of the information on that site can be gleened from other sources. There are marriage docket forms that are published, but they just give the names dates, and clergy who married them.
But from that docket I discovered the priest who married them was a prominate figure in Pittsburgh in the later half of the 19th century, ministering to the Irish immigrants who were pouring into America.
 
Perhaps we need to understand exactly what Mormons are looking for and how it suits their goals.
  1. they are looking for names of people and their date of birth and place. (or if not date of birth, baptismal/christening date).
    2)marriage dates and place.
  2. names of children and their birth (or baptismal) dates.
  3. death dates and burial place
These are the requirement needed in order to do their proxy baptisms and sealings. (sealing husbands to wives and then sealing children to their parents).

The extraction program was (is? does it still exists?) was to help Mormons be able to trace their family lines.

If I am not mistaken, a lot of the Ellis Island and geneological immigrant information has gotten a lot of help from Mormons. I would have to look that up…

I have no idea of how much the LDS Church policy has been tightened up on the gathering and using of the information gleened since I left, but when I was LDS you could not just submit names for temple work indiscriminately. You had to show how they were related to YOU.
 
JustaServant said:
They got cutesy little ads on TV all the time about finding Grandma and Grandpap, which is fine, if all they were doing offering a service. But they obviously have an alterior motive. It’s not about the ritual, they can ‘baptize’ them into the Purple Spagetti Montster cult.
But shouldn’t they at the very least get permission of the families before they perform their rituals? Sounds like an invasion of privacy to me. My family was Catholic on both sides, they have no right to ‘baptize’ my decesed mother and father into thier cult.
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There seems to be a certain amount of paranoia on this thread. Ancestry.com is a business. They are in the business of selling access to records that can help you trace your family tree – census, military, bmd, etc. Many of these records are available elsewhere, but would require a lot of hunting down, travel expense, etc.

No one, even the most dedicated genealogist, is obligated to use them. And having been a subscriber for years, and worked in an internet community of thousands of other subscribers, I have never seen any evidence that they use subscribers’ research for their baptisms. If anyone has such evidence, that would make for a much more impressive post than calling them silly names.

I mean, really – Purple Spaghetti Monster cult?
 
agnes_therese said:
There seems to be a certain amount of paranoia on this thread. Ancestry.com is a business. They are in the business of selling access to records that can help you trace your family tree – census, military, bmd, etc. Many of these records are available elsewhere, but would require a lot of hunting down, travel expense, etc.

No one, even the most dedicated genealogist, is obligated to use them. And having been a subscriber for years, and worked in an internet community of thousands of other subscribers, I have never seen any evidence that they use subscribers’ research for their baptisms. If anyone has such evidence, that would make for a much more impressive post than calling them silly names.

I mean, really – Purple Spaghetti Monster cult?
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From post 32:
It’s been out there in the mainstream media because the church got heat from baptizing Jews from holocaust records.
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Where do you suppose they got those records?
It’s a fair question given the LDS track record.
As for Purple Spaghetti Monster, grow a funny bone.
 
Thanks, Marie…

I am wondering with the Mormons ‘discovering a treasure trove’ of priests and religious church records, to be used for their baptisms of the dead…could be approximating the time the Vatican said that no Catholic records would be used for Mormon purposes…
(of building up membership, right?).
 
agnes_therese said:
They didn’t get those records from ancestry.com subscribers. It’s the other way around – subscribers get the records from ancestry.com. And ancestry.com is a company, not a church.
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What about familysearch.org? They are wholly owned and funded by the LDS Church. It is not “Just” a company.

From their own privacy policy at familysearch.org/privacy:

***We may transfer personal information to any Church-affiliated entity to accomplish Church purposes. ***

They use benign language such as, “We therefore believe that all family members—those living, those past, and those future—share an enduring bond that reaches across the generations” but then go ahead and use those records to “Acomplish Church purposes.”

There would be outrage if the Catholic Church created an organization which did this. People would march on the vatican wiuth pitchforks and torches if they found out that the Catholic Church collected public records to use in interal rituals and rites.

-Tim-

-Tim-
 
agnes_therese said:
There seems to be a certain amount of paranoia on this thread. . . . .
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I wouldn’t call it paranoia.
VATICAN-MORMONS May-2-2008 (1,010 words) xxxn
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Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons
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By Chaz Muth
Catholic News Service
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WASHINGTON (CNS) – In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons’ Genealogical Society of Utah. . . . . Link: catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm
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The Issue of The Mormon Baptisms of Jewish Holocaust Victims and Other Jewish Dead
Compiled by Bernard I. Kouchel
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. . . .The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes. . . . .
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. . .The wrongful posthumous baptism of Jewish dead continues, despite denials by the Mormon leadership. Independent researcher Helen Radkey prepared three reports describing her discoveries which demonstrate that thousands of Holocaust victims have been posthumously baptized since 1995.
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  1. Report of Sep. 27, 2008, (2pp) Click here
  2. Report of Oct. 8, 2008, (1p) Click here
  3. Comprehensive report of Oct. 31, 2008, (61pp) Click here. . .
    © 2012, JewishGen. All rights reserved.
    Link: jewishgen.org/infofiles/ldsagree.html
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Anna
 
agnes_therese said:
There seems to be a certain amount of paranoia on this thread. Ancestry.com is a business. They are in the business of selling access to records that can help you trace your family tree – census, military, bmd, etc. Many of these records are available elsewhere, but would require a lot of hunting down, travel expense, etc.
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Not paranoia, experience. I worked in the LDS business world in SLC for over 25 years. LDS business people consider it a duty and honor to support the mission of the Mormon church. I’ve sat in on many, many business meetings where the “mission of the church” is brought up. Product or marketing strategies were purposely designed to bring in converts or channel resources to the LDS church. Disclosure to clients/customers of these activities are usually not disclosed, not unless the primary clients/customers are LDS too. IF the owners of ancestry.com aren’t engaged in the same practices, then they would be some kind of incredible anomaly.

Brad Pelo’s business dealings with the LDS church go back a long ways.
 
JustaServant said:
Is Ancestry.com a reliable resource for genealogical research despite it being run by the Mormon church?
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If it is being used to “baptize” the dead, then it is an instrument of sacrilege, especially as it was uncommon not to be baptized once we step back more than a generation (in the West).

It might be profitable to petition members of legislature to request they draft laws that force ancestry.com to fully disclose their relations to the Mormon sect and especially the fact that it is used as a means to perform religious services upon ancestors without the knowledge or consent of descendants.

I cannot stress how offensive and sacrilegious this practice is. It is a form of spiritism and cannot but attract the worst sort of spiritual attention. All sacrilege is inherently demonic.
 
KathleenGee said:
Thanks, Marie…

I am wondering with the Mormons ‘discovering a treasure trove’ of priests and religious church records, to be used for their baptisms of the dead…could be approximating the time the Vatican said that no Catholic records would be used for Mormon purposes…
(of building up membership, right?).
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No, baptisms for the dead do not increase membership numbers.

What can be seen as keeping it higher is that those who go inactive or just fall away are still counted until the their 110 birthday hits regardless if they are alive or not.

It’s one of the reasons that some former members go thru the step to officially resign their membership. They dont want to be counted as part of their membership numbers.

Not sure exactly of the timing of when the Vatican caught on, but it may have been connected to when the big outrage from the Jewish community with the baptizing of Holocaust victims became a PR nightmare.

Remember that Catholic records, or any records, can still be accessed by legitimate decendants.

I never submitted any of my ancestors for temple work, but because I was a granddaughter or great -granddaughter etc etc, I could write to various parishes and having demonstrated a link, got the information etc.

It may help with understanding if people at least are aware that Mormons see themselves as having a 3-fold mission.

Proclaim the Gospel (ie missionary work)
Perfect the saints…(ie all the things that Mormons do in order to grow in their faith and perfect their lives…)

And redeem the dead…(ie temple work…ie proxy baptisms for those who have died, proxy confirmations, proxy ordinations of male ancestors to the priesthood, and proxy sealings [spouses to each other and children to parents] and endowment rites…)

I have done proxy baptisms, confirmations, endowments and sealings
 
Mormon “baptisms for the dead” have no effect on anyone or anything, any more than if I concocted some ritual in my own room. The omnipotent God, who has power over all things, could care less what this group does in their baptizing the dead of other faiths, without their consent (obviously) and without the consent of the descendants. Nevertheless, because of this, it is a despicable practice. Do I sometimes pray for the repose of the souls of non-Catholics? All the time. But the difference is this: This is something I choose to do in the privacy of my own home. It is just a simple prayer: e.g. Lord have mercy on the soul of ____. It is not any kind of ritual, no other people are involved, and the Catholic Church does not require me to pray for anyone. In contrast, with the LDS, it is a major practice of their faith to do this and it is condoned by the highest church authorities to perform these public rituals in their “temple” for specific, non-LDS people. Well, “public” for those who have paid they’re 10% dues to the last penny, and so, with this fee, are allowed to participate in the religion.

Maybe we should start requiring all Catholics to pay 10% of their income to receive the Sacraments. Just think of all the $ that that would generate. We could cover radio, tv, buses, and the internet with Catholic ads to join our religion, like the LDS YouTube ads - “…and I’m a Mormon.” Wouldn’t that be great! Of course, knowing us, we’d all leave the Church and become whatever, and rightly so, in this case. 😃

No offense intended. That’s just my 2 cents.
 
Thanks, Marie…

We know that Mormon baptisms of the dead have no effect on Catholics, but it is the methods and practices of how they acquire them, as well as the lack of sensitivity to those committed to their faith and identity.

I put this question in Mormon beliefs…but the other part I am adding here as well…regarding full disclosure…

Does the Mormon church reveal its earnings from tithes? Do they show where the tithing go?..does the Mormon religion reveal what it pays its leaders? I heard somewhere it won’t do that.
 
KathleenGee said:
Does the Mormon church reveal its earnings from tithes? Do they show where the tithing go?..does the Mormon religion reveal what it pays its leaders? I heard somewhere it won’t do that.
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They didnt when I was LDS. I left in 91, resigned in '98. I dont know if that has changed.

It is fair to state that most of the GA’s do get a stipend, but for the most part it’s not outrageous due to that most of them made a great deal of money in their professional lives.

If I recall correctly those that get these stipends are the 1St Presidency (normally 3 men). the Counsel of the 12 Apostles (12 men), the 1st and 2nd Quroum of 70’s (The 1st quroum is full, I dont believe the second one is)
The Presiding Bishopric (3 men)

Beyond that, everyone else I dont believe so. Even mission presidents and temple presidency have to pay their own way like other missionaries. It is why they tend to be filled by retirees who have done well $$$ as well as younger couples who also did well $$$.

At the stake and ward levels, all are lay clergy…

I can give you a general run down of where tithing money goes.
  1. it does go to pay for all the employees that LDS, Inc. employees and in the Mormon corridor (Idaho, UT, and AZ) that is a lot. It’s one of the biggest if not the biggest employer in UT. I cant even guess how many LDS, Inc. employs, but I bet it’s in the tens of thousands.
  2. It goes to support the various universities, BYU-Prove, BYU-Idaho, BYU-Hawaii. Those students are are LDS and are attending those institutions have a tutition fee that is significally less than those Non-LDS who attend. Which would include all the professors etc
At least it was significally less when I attended BYU. It was cheaper for me, as a Mormon, to attend BYU, than to go to any of my state university. A LOT cheaper.

It goes to run the various temples thru out the world. I have no idea of how many temples there are now, but it’s my understanding that GBHinckley dotted the world with them.

It does go to the wards and stakes around the world as well but I dont know how much or how it is figured out. Also the missions, and I do believe it does help the missionaries. I believe there are about 50,000 now out there.

That is a general break down
 
By this link posted above, it’s clear that the ban is really pretty recent and it is aimed at the official LDS genealogical society.

catholicnews.com/data/sto…ns/0802443.htm

Not sure if there is any policy in place now that would keep the individual Mormon seeking information on their own personal ancestors from getting that information?

I wonder if there is some form people have to fill out and disclose for what purpose they want the information?
 
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