And Still They Reenlist

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Richardols:
And I hope that so many Catholics won’t be as fast to place Country above God the next time the president wants to take us to war as they did when they backed his invasion “to find WMDs.”
How do we do that without convincing our enemies that we no longer have the political will to defend ourselves?

President Clinton said, “There was no consensus” for attacking and rooting out Al Qaeda after the attacks on the embassies in Africa.

Osama bin Laden said after those attacks, and the feeble American response, he knew he could do anything.
 
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Richardols:
A bit over-the-top, no? I don’t think any of the fellows volunteering to go back intend to become martyrs - based on my albeit limited knowledge of the motives of the average soldier or airman.
“Martyr” is Greek for “witness.” The ancient Christian martyrs were rarely people who had actually SEEN Christ or the Apostles – they “bore witness” by their willingness to suffer for the Church. And by no means all martyrs suffered death – most were beaten, imprisoned, and sometimes mutilated but not killed.

How does this compare with the men and women who are willing to go back to Iraq? They also “bear witness” by offering themselves.

Of course, unlike most of the early Christian martyrs, these witnesses have actually seen first-hand what they are supporting.
 
Yonnie said:
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!

Thank you for your response. I was trying to think of something charitable to say but I couldn’t find the words. 👍
 
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Richardols:
based on my albeit limited knowledge of the motives of the average soldier or airman.
You don’t have a clue about the average military person. For one thing, they are not at all average. Perhaps it is their self sacrifice that you just can’t understand.
 
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Richardols:
A bit over-the-top, no? I don’t think any of the fellows volunteering to go back intend to become martyrs - based on my albeit limited knowledge of the motives of the average soldier or airman.
No they don’t they reenlist, primarily, if we believe surveys, out of loyalty to their buddies in their unit.

Soldiers join up for all kinds of reasons (soldiers who volunteer for combat units during war time normally sign up for patriotic reasons). But by a large margin, they reenlist out of loyalty to their buddies.
 
vern humphrey:
How do we do that without convincing our enemies that we no longer have the political will to defend ourselves?

President Clinton said, “There was no consensus” for attacking and rooting out Al Qaeda after the attacks on the embassies in Africa.

Osama bin Laden said after those attacks, and the feeble American response, he knew he could do anything.
The implicit premise here is false, for the government of Iraq posed no serious and imminent threat to U.S. security.

None of the alleged weapons of mass destruction have been found, and this hasn’t been for lack of an attempt to unearth them. And there’s no convincing proof of complicity between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Even George W. Bush himself admitted that there was no evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.

The real motives for the U.S. invasion of Iraq were not the missing WMD’s or defense against terrorism, but rather the perceived need to project American military hegemony, the desire to secure Iraqi oil, the “neoconservative” advocacy of consolidating the U.S.-Israeli military and diplomatic relationship, the plutocracy’s interest in preventing working people from focusing on their precarious economic situation, and routine war profiteering.

In plain English, the American people, including most U.S. Catholics, have been conned. 😦 In fact, it’s one of the biggest con jobs of all time. Tragically, it has led to the death and maiming of thousands, including non-combatants. Catholics, who should be committed to the Church’s teaching on peace (*CCC * 2308), should be leading the resistance to this unjust war, which continues in the form of an unjust imperialist occupation.

Of all people, Catholics should be wary about accepting the war-related or other policies of any government which permits mass murder under cover of law. Please recall that this has been the case in our own country since the Supreme Court’s *Roe v. Wade * decision legalizing abortion in 1973. This horrific situation has become more acute since the *de facto * legalization of euthanasia via the court-approved murder of Theresa Marie Schindler-Schiavo on March 31, 2005. The same presidential administration that launched an unjust war in Iraq passively consented to this murder.

The best Web site to consult on the U.S. invasion of Iraq is Antiwar.com.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
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Richardols:
I made no ad hominem remark about that Marine, I criticized what he said. Scott’s remarks about me were over-the-top or across-the-line by any standard. And rather juvenile to boot.
Sheesh, Rich, sorry. Not that YOU have ever made an ad hominem remarks before. At least 99.9% of the people here know that is my way of saying that YOUR post was uncalled for. I respect your liberal perspective, but to imply that we use the Marines to exploit Iraq was about as offensive as I’ve seen. At least I only insulted you, not the entire US Marine Corps, and the country in general.
 
Steve O'Brien:
The implicit premise here is false, for the government of Iraq posed no serious and imminent threat to U.S. security.

None of the alleged weapons of mass destruction have been found, and this hasn’t been for lack of an attempt to unearth them. And there’s no convincing proof of complicity between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Even George W. Bush himself admitted that there was no evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.

The real motives for the U.S. invasion of Iraq were not the missing WMD’s or defense against terrorism, but rather the perceived need to project American military hegemony, the desire to secure Iraqi oil, the “neoconservative” advocacy of consolidating the U.S.-Israeli military and diplomatic relationship, the plutocracy’s interest in preventing working people from focusing on their precarious economic situation, and routine war profiteering.

In plain English, the American people, including most U.S. Catholics, have been conned. 😦 In fact, it’s one of the biggest con jobs of all time. Tragically, it has led to the death and maiming of thousands, including non-combatants. Catholics, who should be committed to the Church’s teaching on peace (*CCC *2308), should be leading the resistance to this unjust war, which continues in the form of an unjust imperialist occupation.

Of all people, Catholics should be wary about accepting the war-related or other policies of any government which permits mass murder under cover of law. Please recall that this has been the case in our own country since the Supreme Court’s *Roe v. Wade *decision legalizing abortion in 1973. This horrific situation has become more acute since the *de facto *legalization of euthanasia via the court-approved murder of Theresa Marie Schindler-Schiavo on March 31, 2005. The same presidential administration that launched an unjust war in Iraq passively consented to this murder.

The best Web site to consult on the U.S. invasion of Iraq is Antiwar.com.

Keep and spread the Faith.
So what should we do? Will it be enough for you if we apologize to Saddam and put him back in power, or do we have to surrender to him?
 
vern humphrey:
So what should we do? Will it be enough for you if we apologize to Saddam and put him back in power, or do we have to surrender to him?
The United States should comply with Catholic moral principles and international law by withdrawing its occupation troops from Iraq immediately and offering reparations for the deaths, injuries, and destruction that our government and military have caused during our morally unjustifiable invasion of that nation. Let’s support our troops by bringing them home now, before any more G.I.'s are killed, wounded, psychologically screwed up, or infected with depleted uranium sickness.

Should the Iraqis feel the need for foreign troops to keep a lid on a volatile situation until their country can be stabilized under a genuinely democratic Iraqi government, they have the option of appealing to the U.N. Security Council or the Arab League to send in peacekeeping troops from Muslim countries.

After its withdrawal from Iraq, the United States should thoroughly adjust its overall foreign policy with the goals of achieving justice and peace for all countries and a diminution of terrorism. The centerpiece of this foreign policy review should be the U.S. approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Our approach to this tragedy should be radically transformed in accordance with the sane, balanced statements issued by the Holy See and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
Steve O'Brien:
The United States should comply with Catholic moral principles and international law by withdrawing its occupation troops from Iraq immediately and offering reparations for the deaths, injuries, and destruction that our government and military have caused during our morally unjustifiable invasion of that nation. Let’s support our troops by bringing them home now, before any more G.I.'s are killed, wounded, psychologically screwed up,
How about we support them by NOT giving our enemies hope that our political will will collapse and they can win the the streets of the United States what they cannot win on the battlefield in Iraq?

Let me point out, I am one of the victims of the “Anti-War Movement” during Viet Nam.
Steve O'Brien:
or infected with depleted uranium sickness.
“Infected with depleted uranium sickness?”

Steve, I actually wrote the manual on dealing with DU on the battlefield – I was under contact to the Army Chemical Center for a while in the late '90s.

Belive me, there is no such thing as "Infected with depleted uranium sickness."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
We “mistakenly” invaded their country and likely caused the maiming and deaths of tens of thousand of their citizens.

The idea that there was some definitive support for this endeavor in the first place is vastly overstated. How can the will of the people collapse when it either wasn’t there in the first place or what was there was built upon falsehoods or sheer political force?
 
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Thekla:
The idea that there was some definitive support for this endeavor in the first place is vastly overstated. How can the will of the people collapse when it either wasn’t there in the first place or what was there was built upon falsehoods or sheer political force?
Both the US House and Senate passed a resolution instructing the President to liberate Iraq. See:
Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq

In the United States we elect representatives who vote our will. So, yes, in a real sense, the will of the people was reflected in this vote.

And now the Vatican wants us to stay in Iraq. Which is the real point now. All Catholics should be on the side of the Iraqis now and let us protect them until they can protect themselves.
 
vern humphrey:
Steve, I actually wrote the manual on dealing with DU on the battlefield – I was under contact to the Army Chemical Center for a while in the late '90s.

Belive me, there is no such thing as "Infected with depleted uranium sickness."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Just out of idle curiousity, what is the technical name for the sickness as a result of inhaling the powder from depleted uranium and what are the side affects reported in the manual you helped write?
 
vern humphrey:
Let me point out, I am one of the victims of the “Anti-War Movement” during Viet Nam.
I am sorry, I rather than being a victim of the “Anti-War Movement” during Viet Nam, I feel that you, like one of my business partners, were a victim of corrupt governmental leaders who should have never placed you in harm’s way for no good reason. And, yes, I was part of the Anti-War Movement.
 
Elaine's Cross:
I am sorry, I rather than being a victim of the “Anti-War Movement” during Viet Nam, I feel that you, like one of my business partners, were a victim of corrupt governmental leaders who should have never placed you in harm’s way for no good reason. And, yes, I was part of the Anti-War Movement.
Then on my own behalf and that of my friends who died, let me tell you we owe you no thanks.
 
You’ve got to be kidding. And there was not clear public support for invading Iraq without a coalition like that of the Gulf War. Besides, is it really support, either from the people or their representatives, when it’s based deception?

Our government will never do it, but we owe the people of Iraq an apology for invading their country and on top of that insult, making such a mess of it. I think that “protecting” is also a vast overstatement.

And the Vatican doesn’t want us to “stay” in Iraq. The Vatican wants us to see if we can undo some of the damage we’ve done and get out.
 
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Thekla:
You’ve got to be kidding. And there was not clear public support for invading Iraq without a coalition like that of the Gulf War. Besides, is it really support, either from the people or their representatives, when it’s based deception?

Our government will never do it, but we owe the people of Iraq an apology for invading their country and on top of that insult, making such a mess of it. I think that “protecting” is also a vast overstatement.

And the Vatican doesn’t want us to “stay” in Iraq. The Vatican wants us to see if we can undo some of the damage we’ve done and get out.
So when are you going over to Iraq to help “undo the damage?”
 
I can’t even begin to comment on this one with out taking up 3-5 successive posts to explain things to the “Newsmax” and Limbaugh readers/listeners.
Suffice to say that from what I have read, Richard is in no way denigrating our young men and women in the military, and he is right on the money in his thinking (and I’m speaking as a man with a history of family members in the service, and as one who tried to enlist years ago, only to find I was disqualified because of a previously undetected heart murmer).
The Iraq invasion was based on bogus and manipulated information from the “get-go”. Since we are up to our keisters in it now, I think that we should stay to finish the job, but what a tragic and criminal waste of the lives of some of our finest and bravest young souls. I pray for them and America every night.
This is a very sore subject for me, so I need to stop now before I earn myself another “vacation”. Thanks for your courage, Rich, and thanks for everyone’s opinions. While I may not agree, it is your right as an American to voice them, and I truly respect that…

Peace.
 
It was clear to many that we were being lied to from the onset and I would not support our government’s disasterous foreign policy. My way of undoing the damage would be to admit that we made a complete mess of it, apologize to the Vatican, and beg for international help.

Some would say that we should have those who believe we are there to “liberate” the Iraqis march down and sign their children up. They’ve been noticeably absent; prefering to let others go in their stead. However, I value their childrens’ lives in a way that they don’t reciprocate.

And so all I can do is hope that military leadership can find a way to quickly extricate our young men and women from a bad foreign policy.
 
Thekla, I will make this simple. I don’t feel like I was lied to. I have a daughter that has had one deployment and will have another to the Persian Gulf. I think you should refrain from calling the soldiers children. I don’t think anyone on this forum could value her life more than I . I am proud to be a parent of one in the military and I know the sacrifice that has been made and continues to be made by our military personell.

What about the mass graves? What about the lives that are being saved now that the people can elect a government? What about the lies the media perpetuates so that people like yourself don’t have a clear picture of the good we are doing there?
 
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