And that's when I walked out of mass

[Brenda_V]

My Parish uses the Catholic Alpha as an introduction to Christianity in general with an emphasis on Catholicism. It by no means replaces RCIA - all our converts must attend RCIA and quite frankly we are a very orthodox Parish - to the point of having people tell us we are too “Roman”, too “rigid”, too “(put your own words in here that people use that mean the just can’t cope with what Catholicism is all about)”.

The ones you might find ignorant (sadly) in my Parish are the cradle Catholics, thankfully I am not one of them. I have too much of a love of God and an innate curiousity to stop me from learning more. I wanted more than my Grandmother’s faith knowledge and she had a beautiful, if somewhat childish, faith (she would be close to 100 by now). So, I informed myself. Before the internet, I found as many books as I could and was so happy when we got a new CCC!

Alpha allows for a somewhat informal way of introducing Christianity to the masses - to the pagan and atheists in the world and to the “cradle Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic” - we are not alone in not handing down the faith and knowledge. There are plenty of mainline protestant denominations with the same problem. For many this informal introduction gives them a chance to ask deeper questions which the leaders are supposed to either defer to our Priests or if they can pull from the CCC then they are supposed to. Now, that may be just the way Alpha is used in my Parish but not in others.

Remember, we are not to start wtih meat when someone is only ready for pablum (baby cereal). Alpha is supposed to be the pablum that will bring them in growth to be able to eat meat.

Sorry, I got kind of long winded .

Brenda V.

 

[Karin]

well, I’ve always felt we can learn from each other karin. This is how I was raised. As a Protestant I lead a bible study with women only, we were mothers in the nieghborhood together. Our kids went to the same schools etc. But we went to different Churches. They attended the Catholic Church across the street. There was about three of them and rest where Presybertain, like me anyway, we had a bible study and learned a great deal about each other and our faiths. We all got to be very good friends. We even had a “field trip” were we visited Mass and then they would came over and went to our Church service. They along with many Catholics used our VBS for thier kids durning the summer.

I don’t think that really answers you question though just to point out that I don’t see an issue with learning as much as we can. Keep in mind that I made it a point to say I don’t think the RCIA or CCD classes should ever be replaced but that this would be a nice addition.

What brought me to my final conversion my friend was the Protestant Church, I have only wonderful things to say about my upbringing and what I learned from them.

I guess I am missing something still…sorry…
I was under the impression that Protestants believe in/use Sola Scripture…and as a Catholic we do not…how do you have an effective Bible Study when you(groups not you personally) are looking at things from two different views?

I think I know a few Catholics that could use some help in picking up their bible more often I’m thinking of something my priest often says. He jokes that we could learn a few things from the Protestants.

implying something…
as to your Priest…I hope he is not referring to wonder bread and grape juice or the use of rock bands at mass…or video screens with power point displays during the Service(mass).

 

[Karin]

Remember, we are not to start wtih meat when someone is only ready for pablum (baby cereal). Alpha is supposed to be the pablum that will bring them in growth to be able to eat meat.

sorry this sounds like what some of our LDS posters state when you ask them questions…

 

[Karin]

More about ALPHA…
***The Talks ***

The underlying theme of the talks is that Christianity is not a set of rules or dogmas, but a personal relationship with God, through Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit. This relationship, lived out in the parish community, is life changing.

• *Who Is Jesus? *
• *Why Did Jesus Die? *
• How Can I Be Sure of My Faith?
• *Why and How Do I Pray? *
• *Why and How Should I Read the Bible? *
• *How Does God Guide Us? *
• *How Can I Resist Evil? *
• *Why and How Should We Tell Others? *
• *Does God Heal Today? *
• What About the Church?

My Parish uses the Catholic Alpha as an introduction to Christianity in general with an emphasis on Catholicism. It by no means replaces RCIA - all our converts must attend RCIA and quite frankly we are a very orthodox Parish - to the point of having people tell us we are too “Roman”, too “rigid”, too “(put your own words in here that people use that mean the just can’t cope with what Catholicism is all about)”.

The ones you might find ignorant (sadly) in my Parish are the cradle Catholics, thankfully I am not one of them. I have too much of a love of God and an innate curiousity to stop me from learning more. I wanted more than my Grandmother’s faith knowledge and she had a beautiful, if somewhat childish, faith (she would be close to 100 by now). So, I informed myself. Before the internet, I found as many books as I could and was so happy when we got a new CCC!

Alpha allows for a somewhat informal way of introducing Christianity to the masses - to the pagan and atheists in the world and to the “cradle Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic” - we are not alone in not handing down the faith and knowledge. There are plenty of mainline protestant denominations with the same problem. For many this informal introduction gives them a chance to ask deeper questions which the leaders are supposed to either defer to our Priests or if they can pull from the CCC then they are supposed to. Now, that may be just the way Alpha is used in my Parish but not in others.

.

Brenda…
are these the topics that you guys talk about in ALPHA?

 

[MrS]

I think I know a few Catholics that could use some help in picking up their bible more often I’m thinking of something my priest often says. He jokes that we could learn a few things from the Protestants.

we need help because our is heavier…

 

[anamchara]

I guess I am missing something still…sorry…
I was under the impression that Protestants believe in/use Sola Scripture…and as a Catholic we do not…how do you have an effective Bible Study when you(groups not you personally) are looking at things from two different views?

we were mothers with little kids and didn’t care too much for “sola sciptura” Karin I wasn’t raised with that all. We just followed along with the guide and had a nice time talking about the parables, Mary and what that must have been like to be only 15 and carrying the Son of God, that kind of thing. I hope that answers you question. It wasn’t anything real deep growing up I was taught we all read from the same bible and it didn’t matter. Expect Catholics had more books

implying something…
as to your Priest…I hope he is not referring to wonder bread and grape juice or the use of rock bands at mass…or video screens with power point displays during the Service(mass).

Not sure where you are going with this he jokes about cradles not picking up the bible and reading it. Try not to read to much more into that

 

[anamchara]

we need help because our is heavier…

and as I used to joke with my Catholic mothers, they have all the cool art work!

 

[Karin]

we were mothers with little kids and didn’t care too much for “sola sciptura” Karin I wasn’t raised with that all. We just followed along with the guide and had a nice time talking about the parables, Mary and what that must have been like to be only 15 and carrying the Son of God, that kind of thing. I hope that answers you question. It wasn’t anything real deep growing up I was taught we all read from the same bible and it didn’t matter. Expect Catholics had more books

sorry I miss understood your usage of the term “Bible Study”…

 

[anamchara]

Alpha allows for a somewhat informal way of introducing Christianity to the masses - to the pagan and atheists in the world and to the “cradle Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic” - we are not alone in not handing down the faith and knowledge. There are plenty of mainline protestant denominations with the same problem. For many this informal introduction gives them a chance to ask deeper questions which the leaders are supposed to either defer to our Priests or if they can pull from the CCC then they are supposed to. Now, that may be just the way Alpha is used in my Parish but not in others.

Sounds really good Brenda and I agree fully, it was these types of things that made me look deeper and eventually convert.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I don’t see the problem with this. I don’t think it should replace the regular CCD classes or RCIA for heavens sake but it sounds like it would be a nice addition

I guess I don’t have problems with pulling from Protestants, I think we can learn a great deal about embracing the bible and focusing on Christ even more or in different ways. I see so much potential in learning from each other.

It’s funny someone in here references holding hands as a Protestant thing, I grew up Protestant and never did this until I entered the Catholic Church…but I digress.

I like a bit of eccumenalism within the spirit of the Vatican.

My three diamonds (daughters) grew up attending VBS and they absolutely have the best memories of those times. I have to admit, I loved it as well.

Because a Catholic perspective is entirely different from a Protestant one.

A Protestant perspective is liable to based on sola scriptura and possibly direct interpretation of Scripture based on out-of-context passages; where a Catholic perspective takes into account full context, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, Tradition with a capital T, and loyalty to the Magisterium.

Case in point, those agenda points from ALPHA that Karin listed:

Who Is Jesus? Possibly not debatable, the Son of God.
Why Did Jesus Die? To save man from sin, and to show us how to be completely obedient to the Will of God. That last part might not make it into a Protestant viewpoint.
How Can I Be Sure of My Faith? Now things get tricky. Is it the sinner’s prayer and the four laws touted in protestantism? Is it a one-time shot of “once saved, always saved”? These viewpoints are not consistent with Catholic teaching.
Why and How Do I Pray? Would that include asking the saints for assistance in the form of peitition, or would that be considered idolatry and/ or necromansy?
Why and How Should I Read the Bible? As the Church teaches it, or one’s own interpretation? Which concordance?
How Does God Guide Us? I think most protestants would have a rough way to go with the answer, “As the Catholic Church teaches us.”
How Can I Resist Evil? I bet no mention is made of frequent, auricular confession to a priest, or asking the intercesion of Mary and the saints.
Why and How Should We Tell Others? Catholic evangelization would be different from Protestant evangelization, in that Catholics would not use the four spiritual laws.
Does God Heal Today? Depends. Could be safe. I’ll wager that uniting our suffering with Christ’s redemption does not make the list.
What About the Church? Does this mean the One, True Church? The entire Body of Christ, including all the separated brethren? Which church (small c, as in denomination)? It appears that the people at ALPHA believe one denomination is just as good as another.

As I pointed out earlier, the Church in the United States has many legitimate choices for kerygma experience, Scripture study, even VBS. It does not need to borrow from the Protestant product (and that’s what it is, a commercial product), risking confusing people to think that anything goes. We have enough of that!

 

[Karin]

Because a Catholic perspective is entirely different from a Protestant one.

A Protestant perspective is liable to based on sola scriptura and possibly direct interpretation of Scripture based on out-of-context passages; where a Catholic perspective takes into account full context, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, Tradition with a capital T, and loyalty to the Magisterium.

Case in point, those agenda points from ALPHA that Karin listed:

Who Is Jesus? Possibly not debatable, the Son of God.
Why Did Jesus Die? To save man from sin, and to show us how to be completely obedient to the Will of God. That last part might not make it into a Protestant viewpoint.
How Can I Be Sure of My Faith? Now things get tricky. Is it the sinner’s prayer and the four laws touted in protestantism? Is it a one-time shot of “once saved, always saved”? These viewpoints are not consistent with Catholic teaching.
Why and How Do I Pray? Would that include asking the saints for assistance in the form of peitition, or would that be considered idolatry and/ or necromansy?
Why and How Should I Read the Bible? As the Church teaches it, or one’s own interpretation? Which concordance?
How Does God Guide Us? I think most protestants would have a rough way to go with the answer, “As the Catholic Church teaches us.”
How Can I Resist Evil? I bet no mention is made of frequent, auricular confession to a priest, or asking the intercesion of Mary and the saints.
Why and How Should We Tell Others? Catholic evangelization would be different from Protestant evangelization, in that Catholics would not use the four spiritual laws.
Does God Heal Today? Depends. Could be safe. I’ll wager that uniting our suffering with Christ’s redemption does not make the list.
What About the Church? Does this mean the One, True Church? The entire Body of Christ, including all the separated brethren? Which church (small c, as in denomination)? It appears that the people at ALPHA believe one denomination is just as good as another.

As I pointed out earlier, the Church in the United States has many legitimate choices for kerygma experience, Scripture study, even VBS. It does not need to borrow from the Protestant product (and that’s what it is, a commercial product), risking confusing people to think that anything goes. We have enough of that!

thank you, this is exactly what I was attempting to convey in my posts and where my confusion lay.

 

[Karin]

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/alpha.html

From that link …
*In actual fact, the Alpha course, with its informal cosy setting, and subjective approach to doctrinal truth, has virtually no traditional Catholicism in it. The teaching on grace is the traditional Protestant view, and there is *

• *no mention of the Catholic understanding of Sacraments, *
• *no teaching on the teaching authority of the Church, *
• *no mention of Mary, of the Mass as a sacrifice, *
• *no mention of the sacraments other than Baptism and Eucharist, *
• *no room for the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, *
• *no room for any distinctly Catholic teaching, *
• *no room for Sacred Tradition, *
• *no guidance on how to know truth from error (instead, everything is subjective; people are asked what they think! Forget about objective truth! *
  so why is the Catholic Church using this program that was founded and started by a Protestant Nicky Gumbel

 

[paramedicgirl]

double

Sadly, in the “spirit” of ecumenism, we tend to allow for too much “handholding” and not enough constructive teaching.

**Ahh that we could only clone Fr. Corapi
**
.

But that would go against the teaching of the Church.

 

[anamchara]

As I pointed out earlier, the Church in the United States has many legitimate choices for kerygma experience, Scripture study, even VBS. It does not need to borrow from the Protestant product (and that’s what it is, a commercial product), risking confusing people to think that anything goes. We have enough of that!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Because a Catholic perspective is entirely different from a Protestant one.

A Protestant perspective is liable to based on sola scriptura and possibly direct interpretation of Scripture based on out-of-context passages; where a Catholic perspective takes into account full context, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, Tradition with a capital T, and loyalty to the Magisterium.

Case in point, those agenda points from ALPHA that Karin listed:

Who Is Jesus? Possibly not debatable, the Son of God.
Why Did Jesus Die? To save man from sin, and to show us how to be completely obedient to the Will of God. That last part might not make it into a Protestant viewpoint.
How Can I Be Sure of My Faith? Now things get tricky. Is it the sinner’s prayer and the four laws touted in protestantism? Is it a one-time shot of “once saved, always saved”? These viewpoints are not consistent with Catholic teaching.
Why and How Do I Pray? Would that include asking the saints for assistance in the form of peitition, or would that be considered idolatry and/ or necromansy?
Why and How Should I Read the Bible? As the Church teaches it, or one’s own interpretation? Which concordance?
How Does God Guide Us? I think most protestants would have a rough way to go with the answer, “As the Catholic Church teaches us.”
How Can I Resist Evil? I bet no mention is made of frequent, auricular confession to a priest, or asking the intercesion of Mary and the saints.
Why and How Should We Tell Others? Catholic evangelization would be different from Protestant evangelization, in that Catholics would not use the four spiritual laws.
Does God Heal Today? Depends. Could be safe. I’ll wager that uniting our suffering with Christ’s redemption does not make the list.
What About the Church? Does this mean the One, True Church? The entire Body of Christ, including all the separated brethren? Which church (small c, as in denomination)? It appears that the people at ALPHA believe one denomination is just as good as another.

As I pointed out earlier, the Church in the United States has many legitimate choices for kerygma experience, Scripture study, even VBS. It does not need to borrow from the Protestant product (and that’s what it is, a commercial product), risking confusing people to think that anything goes. We have enough of that!

OutinChgoburbs:

Well said.

In Why and How Do I Pray?, do they talk about Contemplative Prayer and other forms of specifically CATHOLIC Prayer?

In Why and How Should I Read the Bible?, are they teaching Catholics Lectio Divina, that Catholics should breath scripture in as a prayer, reading it aloud?

And, In What About the Church?, do they talk about Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession and their roots in the Old Covenant?

And, What about the Divine Liturgy and how Heaven and Earth are United in the Divine Liturgy while the priest stands in persona Christi offering that Unbloody Sacrifice of the Mass to God the Father while he and the worshippers are united with Christ on the Cross at Calvery.

I would much rather that Catholics learn the richness of the Catholic faith and Tradition than be propogandized by a watered-down form pf Protestantism.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Al_Masetti]

Not a word so far in this thread about the Baltimore Catechism and the terrible drift that took place in the Catholic Church after the Baltimore Catechism was thrown overboard in the 1960’s as part of the emotional response to Vatican II.

Although criticized for emphasis on memorization “rote memorization” was the prejorative… and became construed as evil ] when the Baltimore Catechism (in three increasing-in-sophistication editions, for different age groups) was used in class, people who were brought up using the Baltimore Catechism got a thorough grounding in the basics.

It wasn’t until the new Catechism of the Catholic Church was written just a couple of years ago that some semblance of order in teaching was begun to be restored.

But the CCC is extremely wordy … designed as a diocesan resource … in contrast to the elegant economy of the Baltimore Catechism.

It would have been easy to issue a fourth edition of the Baltimore Catechism which would include a study guide for advanced students … covering details of scripture and comparative religion, for example, and updating some of the language to the 21st Century.

But then, … we have become bombarded with secularism, with humanism, with materialism, and a bunch of other “-isms”.

Dear Lord …

[So … we now have the results of A HALF-CENTURY of a vacuum in Catholic teaching.]

 

[system]

Not a word so far in this thread about the Baltimore Catechism and the terrible drift that took place in the Catholic Church after the Baltimore Catechism was thrown overboard in the 1960’s as part of the emotional response to Vatican II.

Although criticized for emphasis on memorization “rote memorization” was the prejorative… and became construed as evil ] when the Baltimore Catechism (in three increasing-in-sophistication editions, for different age groups) was used in class, people who were brought up using the Baltimore Catechism got a thorough grounding in the basics.

It wasn’t until the new Catechism of the Catholic Church was written just a couple of years ago that some semblance of order in teaching was begun to be restored.

But the CCC is extremely wordy … designed as a diocesan resource … in contrast to the elegant economy of the Baltimore Catechism.

It would have been easy to issue a fourth edition of the Baltimore Catechism which would include a study guide for advanced students … covering details of scripture and comparative religion, for example, and updating some of the language to the 21st Century.

But then, … we have become bombarded with secularism, with humanism, with materialism, and a bunch of other “-isms”.

Dear Lord …

[So … we now have the results of A HALF-CENTURY of a vacuum in Catholic teaching.]

I got to hear about the Baltimore Chatechism from one older Brother and an one sister but then it was tossed and the next three kids got “whatever we got”. I’m the youngest and by the time I got there…whew! what I remember from 8 years of Catholic elementary is more or less, Earth Day and God is good. (sure God is good! They also told me Lincoln was good, Ghandi was good, etc). Then onto 4 years Catholic High school where what I remember is, “Love, Sex and Marriage” and “On Death and Dying” plus an examination of all the world’s religions.

So now, I’m trying to learn what I missed, for my sake and my family’s.

So now, Al, it is incumbent upon you and your compassionate nature, NOT to say, “Oh, that’s explains your posts!”

 

[Karin]

So now, I’m trying to learn what I missed, for my sake and my family’s.

may I humbly suggest this…
MY CATHOLIC FAITH
**All teachings on this page are from: **MY CATHOLIC FAITH: A Manual Of Religion
MOST REVEREND LOUIS LARAVOIRE MORROW, S.T.D. BISHOP OF KRISHNAGAR Copyright 1949 By Louis LaRavoire Morrow

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

there is an online version here…
willingshepherds.org/Doctrine.htm

 

[Brenda_V]

I wish I could answer some of the questions y’all have asked me but my one and only exposure to Alpha was when it was first started here and I ended up not going. I did read the book that went with it and I am afraid to say I can’t remember all of it but do know that there are definite Catholic components that are added to the basic program. If you look at the questions that are asked during the program you will see they are very basic questions.

As far as “sounding” LDS, you are welcome to think that but it is a fact. If I want to learn Algebra, I have to start from the beginning, what are the basic formulas, how do they work together etc. If I want to know about the rich Catholic Faith and have had very little exposure then I need to start with the basics - who is God, who is Jesus Christ what about Mary and the Saints? I hope that my local Alpha does cover this but since there are only 24 hrs, in a day and this is not where I am called to help evangelize I can only leave it up to my very orthodox Priest to say whether it is appropriate or not.

Brenda V.

 

[LSK]

Background: One of my pet peeves with my church is their blind fascination with “The Alpha Course.” I think this was the first thing that brought me to the Catholic Answers forum. I would see the same banners hanging at the local Presbyterian or Episcopal churches and wonder why my Catholic church was promoting this.

I once posted a thread here on CAF asking about Alpha, and the responses were along the lines of, “oh, they’re must be OK, the bishop allowed it.” or “I’ve heard they’re ok” or, “they have website, go check it out.” I’m in no way slighting anyone who answered, but I continued looking for information from a Catholic point of view.

The first Catholic opinion I found on this was at this link:

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/alpha.html

A very committed Catholic lists what he believes are faults with the Alpha Course and asks the simple question: We have a chatechism, why not learn it? He also brings up the disturbing fact that anything even slightly Catholic was added to the alpha course as an afterthought.

Here, below, direct from the Alpha course home page, under “Teaching Alpha in a Catholic Context” are recommendations by a number of Catholic priests. Again, not one mention of a sacrament, Pope, church tradition, Mary, etc. I ask you is there anything they said that could not have been said by any other clergyman in any of the 30,000 brands of Protestantism? (I’m assuming there’s some reason two of those priests are not wearing collars?)

alpha.org/catholics/running/priest/default.htm

There numerous Alpha detractors from many Christian pastors, especially non-denominational evangelicals, fundamentalists, and baptists, but I won’t list them here because I’m trying to remain focused on Catholics and Alpha.

So anyway,as for the title of the thread, my wife had warned me on the way out the door, “Watch out, they’re pushing Alpha again!” (she and the other daughter were in music ministry at earlier masses) and when my daughter and I reached the church, there was the 20 foot banner proclaiming “ALPHA IS HERE” but I trudged on anyway, not letting it get me down…until the end of mass, when we had all received Communion and were silent and awaiting the final blessing, the priest said, “we now have a few words from someone organizing the Alpha course.” And while this person began proclaiming the benefits of this course, I told my daughter to get her coat on we were leaving. I hated to do it, but I felt like I had to. And as we walked out, the Alpha rep at the door try to to give me a brochure!

So, I felt I needed to write this down. I may sound “anti-eccumenical”, but as a guy who never had a decent chatechism, and now is is trying to raise a Catholic family, I echo the man whose link is above, "Why alpha? Why not use the Chatechism of the Catholic Church?!

(stepping off soapbox)

I don’t know anything about this course. What I do know is that at my parish, St. Joseph’s in Modesto, we concentrate on giving courses that positively REEK of orthodoxy. What has happened? We have every Mass on Sunday full to the brim, we are starting to see a surge in young men discerning a call to the priesthood and RCIA classes are full.
I am going to make a suggestion to you. I would look into taking a course to become a Marian Catechist. Once you finish the basic course, ask for permission to teach it to anyone who might be interested.