And that's when I walked out of mass

[MarkInOregon]

Not a word so far in this thread about the Baltimore Catechism and the terrible drift that took place in the Catholic Church after the Baltimore Catechism was thrown overboard in the 1960’s as part of the emotional response to Vatican II.

Although criticized for emphasis on memorization “rote memorization” was the prejorative… and became construed as evil ] when the Baltimore Catechism (in three increasing-in-sophistication editions, for different age groups) was used in class, people who were brought up using the Baltimore Catechism got a thorough grounding in the basics.

It wasn’t until the new Catechism of the Catholic Church was written just a couple of years ago that some semblance of order in teaching was begun to be restored.

But the CCC is extremely wordy … designed as a diocesan resource … in contrast to the elegant economy of the Baltimore Catechism.

It would have been easy to issue a fourth edition of the Baltimore Catechism which would include a study guide for advanced students … covering details of scripture and comparative religion, for example, and updating some of the language to the 21st Century.

But then, … we have become bombarded with secularism, with humanism, with materialism, and a bunch of other “-isms”.

Dear Lord …

[So … we now have the results of A HALF-CENTURY of a vacuum in Catholic teaching.]

I know many lament the good old days of the Baltimore Catechism, but I know many who were raised on it and they may be able to give the rote memorized answers–but sadly that often does not translate into understanding and that makes it very easy for them to jetison those rote memorized teachings.
Our catechisis needs to be more than what the Baltimore Catechism was. We need to start there but it needs to be followed up with the reasons behind those teachings as our children grow. Thats what was missing in the old days and thats what needs to be found. Just going back to rote memorization is not going to change anything. Knowing that the Eucharist is the body blood soul and divinity of Christ–doesnt do anything for you if 1. you don’t understand what that means or 2. you don’t believe it because no one ever explained why you should believe it.
Anyway going back to the Baltimore Catechism won’t solve all the ill’s and that won’t draw in or help non-christians want to be Christians

Peace of Christ,
Mark in Oregon

 

[Evangel]

Need a Catholic analysis of Alpha?

From the AAA forum:
Do you have information on the Alpha program?
and
What study do you recommend we use to replace Alpha?

The first thread links to:
The Alpha Course–an Evaluation

Despite the commendable intent of Alpha to evangelize the unchurched by facilitating an initial encounter with Jesus Christ, we must conclude that even with a Catholic supplement, it remains deficient, and cannot be recommended for Catholic use.

 

[system]

Max37,

Have you volunteered to work with the small faith sharing groups in your parish? Have you requested to join the group that investigates the various options [materials] for small faith sharing groups? Our parish requests parishioners to join parish staff and research the vaious materials and programs, and this group makes a selection/recommendation.

We investigate the ‘meat’ of the materials, the cost, training facilitators, advertizing, organizing the groups and follow up after the end of the sessions. Our parish has had Lenten faith sharing groups for over 15 years. That is a lot of volunteer hours spent putting the sessions in place.

Do you support your parish with weekly contributions that allow for the funding of small faith sharing groups? Even though most of the groups meet in homes there is still the cost for training materials and individual paricipant materials, some very good programs are economical, some less desirable ones are expensive, but there are costs associated with every one. In a large parish of over 2000 families, even a relatively small individual cost cn add up fast.

It is easy to walk away and easy to complain about the programs offered by your parish. it is much harder is to become involved in the process and be the person or persons responsible for the choices and ddeall with those who don’t “care” for the “this or that”.

I was part of the curriculumn choicce for our 2007 Lenten season. We started looking at materials last October. Sure I coud have spent those evenings at home but I was at church reading booklets. And that in addition to RCIA Team, Pastoral Council, Liturgy Team etc.

Call and volunteer, I am sure that they would be glad to have your (name removed by moderator)ut. Some over taxed volunteer will probably bless you for comong forward so they can have an evening home and not be confused with paid staff at the parish!

Stepping off my soap box…

That’s quite a few personal questions for a stranger!
But I though sooner or later I would have defend myself as WORTHY of holding an opinion and posting it on this forum.

Let’s see, I have been involved in my parish on and off for many years. In fact, my wife and I taught the Baptism classes to new parents for years…as you said, we did it until some new volunteers could relieve us. My entire family is involved in several ways and my wife is teaching CCD weekly, and oh, yes, I give money every week, enough. I go to adoration weekly, pray daily, and rosary almost daily. Did I pass your test?

It is easy to walk away and easy to complain about the programs offered by your parish.

As you read in the original post, it was indeed NOT easy.

 

[system]

welcome to the forums, and welcome home, I should have said that first

Thanks

since you are new here I will repeat what I have said many times before I respond to thread titles and to posts, I do not respond to persons, and I do not make personal attacks, I attack posts that are in error or ideas that are mistaken. What we see here is the written word, not the person, that that is how I am responding.

That is convenient. So attacking the thoughts, opinions, and feelings of a person, is not an attack on the person, just an attack on the person’s words? I didn’t know that.
So, if I said, the dodge truck analogy was a total waste of time, would that be an attack on you, or just your words? From your description, I really don’t know.

I merely mentioned past Alpha threads

you didn’t merely mention them, you said, “plenty of alpha threads” (but linked none). It seemed to me you were implying this thread was unnecessary. When I asked you if you meant I shouldn’t have posted it, you didn’t reply.

as a source for info because the contained some insights from people who have actual experience with Alpha.

I provided two links to people with actual experience with Alpha. Some of the posters actually read them.

My church offers all kinds of programs which do not interest me at this time. I do not “walk out” when that happens.

Now explain how that is not a personal attack.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I know many lament the good old days of the Baltimore Catechism, but I know many who were raised on it and they may be able to give the rote memorized answers–but sadly that often does not translate into understanding and that makes it very easy for them to jetison those rote memorized teachings.
Our catechisis needs to be more than what the Baltimore Catechism was. We need to start there but it needs to be followed up with the reasons behind those teachings as our children grow. Thats what was missing in the old days and thats what needs to be found. Just going back to rote memorization is not going to change anything. Knowing that the Eucharist is the body blood soul and divinity of Christ–doesnt do anything for you if 1. you don’t understand what that means or 2. you don’t believe it because no one ever explained why you should believe it.
Anyway going back to the Baltimore Catechism won’t solve all the ill’s and that won’t draw in or help non-christians want to be Christians

Peace of Christ,
Mark in Oregon

I agree that the Baltimore Catechism was merely the first step, the base, for a lifetime of study and eduction in the tenets of Catholicism.

UNFORTUNATELY, in ACTUALITY, what has happened is that without the Baltimore Catechism, … or I should say … without EVEN the Baltimore Catechism, folks have emerged with NO KNOWLEDGE, not even a minimal understanding of the tenets of Catholicism.

For just one example, there is a scandalous lack of understanding of the Real Presence.

A disheartening percentage of Catholics [and there have been numerous surveys to back this up] today believe that the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass is symbolic, rather than Real.

There is no question that the Baltimore Catechism was inadequate for a full life of study and knowledge, but nowadays, Catholics today don’t even have THAT little bit.

 

[puzzleannie]

when we elect to participate in a discussion forum, such as this one, we present our ideas and opinions, or links and sources for statements on the ideas and opinions of others. In so doing, we invite comment, discussion, argument, and yes, even disagreement. Any of those statements and posts are about ideas, facts and opinions, they are not about personalities.

It avails little, in such discussions, to confuse statements about ideas, even when they disagree with yours, with personal attacks. There is no such intent, and to read into our replies such attacks is fruitless, pointless, and frustrates the purpose of the discussion forum

If you will not accept assurance that disagreement, or other points of view, are not personal attacks, then I can’t help you.

OP began the discussion with a description of a circumstance in his parish, and described his personal reaction to that circumstance. Obviously, any reply, which he invited by his post, is going to include a comment on his action, the reasons he gave for his action, and the circumstance reported.

 

[PauloFreire2]

Hoooooaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!

SOLDIER, FOREVER!!!

 

[PauloFreire2]

Wikipedia describes the Alpha Course as having an evangelical bent. So, that probably explains why the OP doesn’t feel comfortable with it. Evangelicals, at best, are at least on the verge of going Fundie at the drop of a hat. In the end, they always insist on worshiping the Bible. I say again – they WORSHIP the Bible. It’s sort of idolatrous, actually. The Bible came well AFTER the Christian community.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Not a word so far in this thread about the Baltimore Catechism and the terrible drift that took place in the Catholic Church after the Baltimore Catechism was thrown overboard in the 1960’s as part of the emotional response to Vatican II.

Although criticized for emphasis on memorization “rote memorization” was the prejorative… and became construed as evil ] when the Baltimore Catechism (in three increasing-in-sophistication editions, for different age groups) was used in class, people who were brought up using the Baltimore Catechism got a thorough grounding in the basics.

It wasn’t until the new Catechism of the Catholic Church was written just a couple of years ago that some semblance of order in teaching was begun to be restored.

But the CCC is extremely wordy … designed as a diocesan resource … in contrast to the elegant economy of the Baltimore Catechism.

It would have been easy to issue a fourth edition of the Baltimore Catechism which would include a study guide for advanced students … covering details of scripture and comparative religion, for example, and updating some of the language to the 21st Century.

But then, … we have become bombarded with secularism, with humanism, with materialism, and a bunch of other “-isms”.

Dear Lord …

[So … we now have the results of A HALF-CENTURY of a vacuum in Catholic teaching.]

As Catholic Home-schoolers we use the Baltimore Catechism in our teaching. So we adults are also learning more about our faith. The children go to CCD for the socialization they get the Baltimore for training in the faith.

 

[Al_Masetti]

As Catholic Home-schoolers we use the Baltimore Catechism in our teaching. So we adults are also learning more about our faith. The children go to CCD for the socialization they get the Baltimore for training in the faith.

May God bless you for that.

Since the Baltimore Catechism is still available for purchase (or it was … I haven’t checked lately) … perhaps there are a lot of like-minded parents who are doing the same.

Hopefully, some parishes will re-begin using the Baltimore Catechism (again).

Best regards,

Al

 

[uther]

max37,

I’m with you.

Here’s a quote from the link that Karin included in an earlier post.

"According to Christian Order’s editor, Rod Pead, Alpha is merely “the latest in the long line of New Age/Protestant Trojan horses to be wheeled into Catholic parishes with episcopal blessing.”

That link;
thewandererpress.com/a3-7-02.htm

The pedigree of Nicky Gumbel and Holy Trinity Brompton is truly critical to all of this. There is danger here.

And, as far as I can tell by reading the course materials, it never gets to something as basic and soul searching as original sin, personal sin, what is sin, repentance, reconciliation with God and so forth, or the kind of things that you find in St. Peter’s Pentecost sermon.

One would be farther ahead for the sake of the souls of the course participants, particularly if they have a grudge against the Church, or are practical atheists or agnostics to read to them the first five chapters or Book 1 of Mere Christianity (another Anglican, by the way) and then if they are still with you, go on to Book 2. Whoever is left can then go into RCIA.

 

[Nordar]

we need help because our is heavier…

Now that’s funny!!

 

[MyGodAndMyLord]

I still don’t understand just what Alpha is. What is it’s purpose? Can you give me a better understanding of it? The Church I used to attend(Ileft for many reasons) had just started using Alpha, and if I remember correctly, it had to do with helping children cope with loss of a loved one.

The Alpha course, Lucia, is simply a pre-catechical look at Christianity. There are many people, including many cradle Catholics, who have a lot of quesitons about basic Christianity. These are questions that are more basic than how the sacraments work or what they are or the role of Mary and saints or papal infallibility.

The questions Alpha seeks to address include “Who is Jesus Christ?” and “How is Christianity relevent today?” These questions are so fundamental to Christianity as to be questions shared by almost anyone professing to be a Christian whether they are Roman Catholic, Pentacostal, Anglican or some other denomination.

Should evangelization end with an Alpha course? Definitely not. Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ and wants to know more about the faith, they should then be introduced to the rest of the teachings of the Catholic church. The Alpha course can be a good entry point to Christianity, though, because it encourages people to discuss questions they may have had for a long time and been unable to ask in an informal but supportive environment.

You have to admit, there’s a lot of junk information about Christianity out there. I’ve met people who, for example, thought they couldn’t come to a Catholic church because they thought they had to be invited. I’ve met a woman who was sorry because she thought she could no longer ever be allowed in a Catholic church because she’d gotten a divorce. These people were relieved and surprised when I told them they could attend a Catholic mass without being invited and that there was a process called annulment that might even make it possible for them to marry again in a Catholic church - and that she could still come to church even if she’d gotten a divorce.

Alpha encourages a people to open up, bring up some of this baggage and discuss it and often resolve it with others in an informal, friendly setting. For many people, it’s a good starting point because that’s where they’re at. For others who are already faithful Catholics, though, it would probably be a waste of time. These people can move on to other programs and take a more advanced lesson in Catholic teaching.

 

[MyGodAndMyLord]

Incidentally, I too have walked out of masses.

I’m not particularly proud of it but there have been times when I was so discouraged or disheartened by what was going on around me that I just couldn’t take sitting there. Yes, the mass is a wonderful support. Many other times when I have been down or unwell, it has buoyed my spirit. But sometimes not.

I, like other people, sometimes feel lousy. And sometimes it is the behaviour of others in the church that aggravate me. Or I have a particularly hard time with a church teaching. Or I’m just discouraged. On some of those occassions, I have just gotten up and walked out.