Angels

[seagal]

There is no problem if all Angels accept the will of God, what is infused to them at the time of their creation. The problems appear when we consider fallen Angels.

You keep saying that. What problem?

 

[Gorgias]

Because an Angel can serve God or not. So there are two options in which the Angel has to choose one from. This is my definition of decision. What is your definition of decision?

A decision is an action that is reached by a process of consideration and resolution.

The selection of a choice between multiple alternatives is not, strictly speaking, a decision, although I can see how, in informal language, one might loosely use the term that way. My counter-example still stands: having already made the decision to lose weight, the ‘choice’ to leave a dessert at the table isn’t a ‘decision’ – it’s an act of the will!

I don’t know. There are many conflict within religion and between religions. Do you believe that Mohammad was not a prophet?

Nope. I’m a Catholic Christian, not a Muslim. Whatever Mohammad was, he wasn’t a teacher of accurate theology.

There is no problem if all Angels accept the will of God, what is infused to them at the time of their creation. The problems appear when we consider fallen Angels.

I’m with seagal – what’s the ‘problem’ you perceive?

 

[STT]

You keep saying that. What problem?

There are two problems here. The simpler one is as following: Angel can only perform one eternal act (because they are timeless) and act of will (or decide, I don’t know what is the difference). An eternal act always forks and applies to different temporal situations. Angels however don’t have any sense therefore they cannot know the situation. This means that the knowledge of situations must be fused to them in the time of their creations otherwise they cannot perform their tasks. There is a problem with fallen Angels. The reject God which means that they reject to perform the tasks related to the fused knowledge of situations The question is how they can do anything at all when they reject God’s plan. That is true because they have no sense and they cannot use the infused knowledge of situation so they are stuck.

 

[STT]

A decision is an action that is reached by a process of consideration and resolution.

The selection of a choice between multiple alternatives is not, strictly speaking, a decision, although I can see how, in informal language, one might loosely use the term that way. My counter-example still stands: having already made the decision to lose weight, the ‘choice’ to leave a dessert at the table isn’t a ‘decision’ – it’s an act of the will!

I see the difference now.

Nope. I’m a Catholic Christian, not a Muslim. Whatever Mohammad was, he wasn’t a teacher of accurate theology.

Well, that is your belief.

I’m with seagal – what’s the ‘problem’ you perceive?

I already explain the problem for seagal.

 

[Wesrock]

Angels are not immutable. There will has been set, but they do not exist outside of time in the sense God does. They are not omniscient regarding God’s actions or what consequences His acts will have. Their knowledge is limited to the here and now and what they’ve seen in the past. They can make projections. How they gain their knowledge? God must provide them with some faculty for doing so, different than ours.

Only the present actually exists. The past no longer exists. The future does not yet exist. God has full knowledge of it all in His eternity because He has full knowledge of His act, which is what Creation is (His act), the knowledge of all points in time is always present to Him for that reason, and He never changes. Not so to angels. The end they have willed is set, but they gain new knowledge over time.

Hope I got that right!

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Well, that is your belief.

Well… it’s the belief of all Christians.

STT:

There are two problems here. The simpler one is as following: Angel can only perform one eternal act (because they are timeless) and act of will (or decide, I don’t know what is the difference).

Yes.

An eternal act always forks and applies to different temporal situations.

“Forks”? Not sure what you’re getting at. However, you’re right, in that eternal acts may have effects in the created realm. This isn’t a logical problem, however.

Angels however don’t have any sense therefore they cannot know the situation. This means that the knowledge of situations must be fused to them in the time of their creations otherwise they cannot perform their tasks.

You’re forgetting that angels do not act in temporal situations… unless God sends them on a mission. In doing so, we would assert that God infuses in them whatever knowledge they might need. It’s not that the angel has that knowledge as part of his nature; it’s that God has called upon them to do something in the frame of reference of the created realm.

You might be correct in your assertion – but you’re forgetting that the ‘mission’ comes from God, not from the angel.

There is a problem with fallen Angels. The reject God which means that they reject to perform the tasks related to the fused knowledge of situations The question is how they can do anything at all when they reject God’s plan. That is true because they have no sense and they cannot use the infused knowledge of situation so they are stuck.

This is a good objection.

Your question, then, is how fallen angels are able to perceive situations inside of creation? I would respond that humans, through their sinful actions, have given up (some of?) the dominion of the world to Satan. This dominion had been given by God to man. Having received this power from sinful humans, Satan can act in a way not originally given him, nor part of his nature. God allows this – but did not cause it, Himself – because it all falls into His plan for the salvation of humanity.

So, my off-the-cuff answer is that Satan (and his demons) have the ability because, in a certain sense, we’ve ceded it to him.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.

Your premise that “information has form [physical form]” is speculation in the context of mind. It leads to an assumption about the nature consciousness, which as of yet is unobserved/unexplained. Yes, it is possible for consciousness to have a physical aspect, which is reflected in neurophysiological activity in the brain. However, it is also true that consciousness has a qualitative aspect which does not simply involve a process, but also imagery and states. In other words, the thought of a woman in my head is not exactly the same thing as electrochemical impulses. At best, one leads to or correlates with the other.

And unlike Dr. Daniel Dennett, who explains some aspects of consciousness (e.g. mental imagery) as being nothing, there are replicated studies that show thoughts and behavior can effect brain structure. Look up ‘self-directed neuroplasticity’. So clearly consciousness (mental imagery, etc) has a tangible existence since it can cause effects.

 

[seagal]

There are two problems here. The simpler one is as following: Angel can only perform one eternal act (because they are timeless) and act of will (or decide, I don’t know what is the difference). An eternal act always forks and applies to different temporal situations. Angels however don’t have any sense therefore they cannot know the situation. This means that the knowledge of situations must be fused to them in the time of their creations otherwise they cannot perform their tasks. There is a problem with fallen Angels. The reject God which means that they reject to perform the tasks related to the fused knowledge of situations The question is how they can do anything at all when they reject God’s plan. That is true because they have no sense and they cannot use the infused knowledge of situation so they are stuck.

You make it sound like angels and demons are wandering around blind because they lack human senses. Does it not occur to you that they don’t need human senses because they are not material? They must have other ways of gathering information that we can only guess at.

Demons (or fallen angels) are still highly intelligent creatures with all the infused knowledge that they were created with, the exact same ones as the angels who serve God. Denying God didn’t take away their “angelness” (to coin a word), it just got them kicked out of heaven (and denied them the beatific vision).

 

[AgnosticBoy]

You make it sound like angels and demons are wandering around blind because they lack human senses. Does it not occur to you that they don’t need human senses because they are not material? They must have other ways of gathering information that we can only guess at.

Demons (or fallen angels) are still highly intelligent creatures with all the infused knowledge that they were created with, the exact same ones as the angels who serve God. Denying God didn’t take away their “angelness” (to coin a word), it just got them kicked out of heaven (and denied them the beatific vision).

I think that STT is engaging in some ‘theoretical’ reasoning which often lacks empirical justification, starting with evidence for angels, etc. Even using reason alone, I’d question why can’t sensory experience be possible in different ways using different mediums, just as a computer can think (in a sense) without requiring a physical body. We’re sort of stuck here reasoning from ‘current’ knowledge which is fine just as long as we’re using it to get a working understanding/testable hypotheses as opposed to drawing definitive conclusions, such as declaring that angels aren’t real.

 

[Gorgias]

You make it sound like angels and demons are wandering around blind because they lack human senses. Does it not occur to you that they don’t need human senses because they are not material? They must have other ways of gathering information that we can only guess at.

Very close, but you fall off at that last assertion. They don’t “gather information”; they already have infused knowledge, given to them by God as part of their angelic nature.

 

[seagal]

Very close, but you fall off at that last assertion. They don’t “gather information”; they already have infused knowledge, given to them by God as part of their angelic nature.

I was thinking particularly of Guardian Angels and how they help us, and so we need to be able to communicate with them.

 

[STT]

“Forks”? Not sure what you’re getting at. However, you’re right, in that eternal acts may have effects in the created realm. This isn’t a logical problem, however.

That is what I meant with fork (bold part).

This is a good objection.

Your question, then, is how fallen angels are able to perceive situations inside of creation? I would respond that humans, through their sinful actions, have given up (some of?) the dominion of the world to Satan. This dominion had been given by God to man. Having received this power from sinful humans, Satan can act in a way not originally given him, nor part of his nature. God allows this – but did not cause it, Himself – because it all falls into His plan for the salvation of humanity.

So, my off-the-cuff answer is that Satan (and his demons) have the ability because, in a certain sense, we’ve ceded it to him.

I am sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Gorgias]

I am sorry. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Umm… what are you having trouble with?

The fact that humans have ceded dominion to Satan on earth through their sinfulness?

Something else?

 

[STT]

Umm… what are you having trouble with?

The fact that humans have ceded dominion to Satan on earth through their sinfulness?

Something else?

Yes, that is my problem. I think we agree on the fact that Angels are fused with the knowledge of what supposed to do at time of their creation. I don’t understand how giving dominion to Satan allows Him to do things. Moreover, Satan was in the Garden of Eve tempting Eve before man’s fall so how He could have control on man before the fall?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.

Angels move in Spirit, according to the will of God. They don’t have reason, like man has reason within his flesh. They’re pure Spirit that move according to the will of the Holy Spirit.

 

[grateful_child]

God alone has foreknowledge. All creatures, including angels who are creatures, do not have foreknowledge. God did not endow them with this gift.

The following courses will help us understand this: Spiritual Theology, Moral Theology, Philosophy (among others).

Angels don’t have body so they could not experience things as we do therefore they should have the knowledge of a situation somehow before they make a decision.

Angels however don’t have any sense therefore they cannot know the situation. This means that the knowledge of situations must be fused to them in the time of their creations otherwise they cannot perform their tasks.

There’s truth in your statements. And, in fact, the ANGELS DID HAVE sufficient and adequate knowledge of the situation before making their decision TO CHOOSE GOD or TO REJECT HIM, but not because they had infused "foreknowledge" but because God created them in the state of grace (per St. Thomas). All the angels enjoyed the knowledge and insights provided by both their angelic nature and their state of grace. More details clarifying this in the next post. Also, to have a better understanding of this, see:

Episode 2 – “Angels in Creation” - Refer to the mid-portion of Deacon Reuben’s presentation re angels being created in a state of grace. (See link provided earlier.)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14371834#post14371834

 

[grateful_child]

How they could know? Through the infused knowledge at the time of their creation?

Yes. Through infused knowledge (but not "foreknowledge) at the time of their creation because of their superior angelic intellect,** GREATLY ENHANCED WITH THE PRECIOUS KNOWLEDGE & INSIGHTS ADDITIONALLY GIVEN TO THEIR INTELLECT BECAUSE GOD CREATED THEM IN THE STATE OF GRACE**. Grace is supernatural (CCC 1998). It is not “natural” to the angels’ nature nor to our nature. It is a gift that raises us up above our nature and enables us to participate in the divine life of God. (CCC1997)

Before explaining my reply, here’s a brief backgrounder on GRACE:

“Grace is … the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become ….partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.” (CCC 1996.)

Sanctifying Grace is “…the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.” (CCC 1999) The state of Sanctifying Grace results in the infusion of Supernatural Virtues. These “Supernatural Virtues” are infused by God into the faculties of the soul (intellect/free will) in order to dispose them to function according to the dictates of reason enlightened by faith. (Aumann 62).

These Infused Virtues include the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Love (Caritas). Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God …because God is Truth itself (ccc 1814.) Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire … eternal life as our happiness. Love (Caritas) is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for His own sake.

According to St. Thomas, the angels were created in the state of grace. They were however not created in a state of perfect fulfillment. This is attainable only in the beatific vision where one sees God face to face. To attain finally to the beatific vision was God’s will for the angels, but they had to will it freely by choosing God during their trial.

Being created in the state of grace,** the angels possessed Sanctifying Grace** which oriented them toward perfect fulfillment in the beatific vision. In addition, the angels possessed the Infused Virtues of Faith, Hope and Love (Caritas). **Faith **enabled the angels to know God, albeit dimly (not face to face), and gave them sufficient knowledge to love God as to choose Him in freedom according to His Will during their trial. Hope gave them the desire to attain to the beatific vision. Love (Caritas) gave them the ability to love God above all things for His own sake.

Thus, at the time of their trial, the angels were all sufficiently equipped to make their choice, given that their intellect and freewill were greatly enhanced and empowered by Grace. Their freewill was, however, left intact: They were free to choose God or to reject Him.

To better grasp the importance of the role of Grace when the angels made their decision, it is well to reflect on Aumann’s comment that supernatural virtues are infused by God into the faculties of the soul (intellect / free will) in order to dispose them to function according to the dictates of reason enlightened by faith. (Aumann 62).

 

[Gorgias]

Satan was in the Garden of Eve tempting Eve before man’s fall so how He could have control on man before the fall?

Two thoughts:

First, the Genesis account of the Garden doesn’t mention Satan. Ever.

Second, before appealing to the narrative in the first chapters of Genesis, we would first have to decide whether we believe them to be literal, historical accounts.