Angels

[Wesrock]

OK, let’s hear YOUR reason or citation fro this premise.

If you are really “seeking” reading and research is one of the easiest ways to learn.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ANGEL.HTM

What is meant is that God does not deliberate or process thoughts the way we do. His knowledge is not “ratiocinative or discursive,” as Saint Thomas put it, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 57. He knows and he wills, but he does not “think” (with thinking be a process).

I would not say that angels think like humans do, either. There is no process. But they do not have all knowledge eternally in the same way as God does. They can gain new knowledge and respond to it according to their will.

 

[Gorgias]

Angels don’t have body so they could not experience things as we do therefore they should have the knowledge of a situation somehow before they make a decision.

They have knowledge of created things, not foreknowledge of situations.

These are different orders of knowledge. For example, I’m guessing we both know what an ‘apple’ is. (Angels know what an apple is, too.) But, having knowledge of what an apple is doesn’t mean that we must necessarily have knowledge of whether or not I’m carrying an apple around in my coat pocket; or, if I am, what variety of apple it is; or when (and by whom) that apple will be eaten.

Can you see the distinction between the types of knowledge? These latter types of knowledge (which center on knowledge of particulars and of actions surrounding these particulars) would require foreknowledge, which only God has.

Now… if you want to make the case that, knowing that I like apples, and I’m likely to be hungry at noon, and that means I’ll probably eat my apple at that time, then yeah – both angels and humans can know these kinds of things. However, they’re just probable assertions, and not an instance of definite foreknowledge.

Hope this helps…

 

[STT]

They do have knowledge – they know us and how our minds work, and judging from our past behaviour they can surmise what our probable future actions will be.

That doesn’t make any sense considering the fact that we have free will. Moreover they need to know the situation in past in order to project it into future. That is something that they don’t have in the first place.

But they don’t know the future. That is only for God to know.

They at least need to know the situation at now.

And when you think about it, angels don’t need to know the future. Their only purpose is to do the will of God, whatever he tells them to do. You asked before (I don’t remember which post) if angels are tools, and the answer is yes. And being tools (or instruments) they don’t need to know what work they will be doing in the future, they only need to know what they’re doing now.

How about fallen Angels? They don’t listen to God so they should somehow know the situation before they make any decision.

 

[STT]

They have knowledge of created things, not foreknowledge of situations.

These are different orders of knowledge. For example, I’m guessing we both know what an ‘apple’ is. (Angels know what an apple is, too.) But, having knowledge of what an apple is doesn’t mean that we must necessarily have knowledge of whether or not I’m carrying an apple around in my coat pocket; or, if I am, what variety of apple it is; or when (and by whom) that apple will be eaten.

Can you see the distinction between the types of knowledge? These latter types of knowledge (which center on knowledge of particulars and of actions surrounding these particulars) would require foreknowledge, which only God has.

Now… if you want to make the case that, knowing that I like apples, and I’m likely to be hungry at noon, and that means I’ll probably eat my apple at that time, then yeah – both angels and humans can know these kinds of things. However, they’re just probable assertions, and not an instance of definite foreknowledge.

Hope this helps…

I know the difference between knowledge of things, foreknowledge and knowledge of a situation. I am stressing that Angels should somehow have the knowledge of the situation as we do otherwise they cannot make any decision. They however don’t have any body to sense the situation so the knowledge of different situation should have been infused to them as well at the time of their creations otherwise they could not perform any action. This however is problematic considering the case of fallen Angels.

 

[seagal]

That doesn’t make any sense considering the fact that we have free will. Moreover they need to know the situation in past in order to project it into future. That is something that they don’t have in the first place.

As someone else already pointed out, knowing something will or is likely to happen is not the same thing as causing it to happen. Meteorologists, Wall St. traders, scientists, gamblers, and “psychics” do it all the time.

They at least need to know the situation at now.

I believe I said that, or if I didn’t I certainly agree with it.

How about fallen Angels? They don’t listen to God so they should somehow know the situation before they make any decision.

Fallen angels listen to their master, Lucifer.

As Peter Kreeft said in this lecture (which I highly recommend you take the time to listen to) we don’t know very much at all about angels. There are no angel experts. To quote Mr. Kreeft, “We know about as much about angels as our pets know about us.” So you can ask “how can angels possibly do [this]” but the truth is nobody knows. We only know that they exist and that they interact with us. Everything else is pure speculation.

 

[STT]

As someone else already pointed out, knowing something will or is likely to happen is not the same thing as causing it to happen. Meteorologists, Wall St. traders, scientists, gamblers, and “psychics” do it all the time.

That I know and I didn’t say otherwise.

I believe I said that, or if I didn’t I certainly agree with it.

How they could know? Through the infused knowledge at the time of their creation?

Fallen angels listen to their master, Lucifer.

As Peter Kreeft said in this lecture (which I highly recommend you take the time to listen to) we don’t know very much at all about angels. There are no angel experts. To quote Mr. Kreeft, “We know about as much about angels as our pets know about us.” So you can ask “how can angels possibly do [this]” but the truth is nobody knows. We only know that they exist and that they interact with us. Everything else is pure speculation.

The existence of fallen Angels is problematic. That is the problem that I am trying to bring it up but no one pay any attention to it.

 

[Gorgias]

I know the difference between knowledge of things, foreknowledge and knowledge of a situation. I am stressing that Angels should somehow have the knowledge of the situation as we do otherwise they cannot make any decision.

So, again, I’ve gotta ask: what kinds of decisions do you think angels are making? I mean, we – as embodied persons – have to make decisions in the physical world all the time: oatmeal or Wheaties for breakfast? Coffee or tea? Take this route to work or that route? Angels, however, don’t have to make decisions like that.

Moreover, what do you mean by “knowledge of the situation”? Again, we humans don’t have infused knowledge, so we gain knowledge through our senses – we learn. Angels have infused knowledge, so they have no need of physical senses – they know.

They however don’t have any body to sense the situation so the knowledge of different situation should have been infused to them as well at the time of their creations

No. Knowledge of things – and more precisely, their natures – has been infused in them.

otherwise they could not perform any action.

Not quite. What kinds of ‘actions’ are you positing? Are you talking about the angelic ‘missions’, of the type we see in the Bible, that God sends them on?

This however is problematic considering the case of fallen Angels.

Why?

 

[STT]

So, again, I’ve gotta ask: what kinds of decisions do you think angels are making? I mean, we – as embodied persons – have to make decisions in the physical world all the time: oatmeal or Wheaties for breakfast? Coffee or tea? Take this route to work or that route? Angels, however, don’t have to make decisions like that.

Moreover, what do you mean by “knowledge of the situation”? Again, we humans don’t have infused knowledge, so we gain knowledge through our senses – we learn. Angels have infused knowledge, so they have no need of physical senses – they know.

They at least made one decision: To stay with God or not.

No. Knowledge of things – and more precisely, their natures – has been infused in them.

We are more interested in knowledge of a situation when it come to a decision.

Not quite. What kinds of ‘actions’ are you positing? Are you talking about the angelic ‘missions’, of the type we see in the Bible, that God sends them on?

Yes, I am talking about Angelic missions.

Why?

Because the knowledge of situations that they face is infused to them in the time of their creation therefore the fallen Angels couldn’t possibly be in side of God.

 

[seagal]

Because the knowledge of situations that they face is infused to them in the time of their creation therefore the fallen Angels couldn’t possibly be in side of God.

That makes no sense

 

[STT]

That makes no sense

It makes complete sense. Think of one Angel who knows that it would face a set of situations in future. He could choose to be with God or against God at time of his creation. The reality however is not that simple, it is intertwine, therefore the choice of this Angel affects the choice of another one. How? Think of another Angel who is supposed to make its decision too. The situations that it would face however are not free since it is conditioned with the situation and decision of the first Angel. To make the long story short, we need a predefined set of situations for Angels and they should accept or reject God according to the plan otherwise we face with a conflict of decisions.

 

[Gorgias]

They at least made one decision: To stay with God or not.

Again, that wasn’t a decision – it was an act of the will. They either acted to be in union with God or to separate themselves from God. Not a ‘decision’ – just an ‘act’.

We are more interested in knowledge of a situation when it come to a decision.

You haven’t demonstrated any sort of “angelic decision” yet, though.

Yes, I am talking about Angelic missions.

Perfect. From the Bible, then, can you demonstrate any angelic ‘decision’?

Because the knowledge of situations that they face is infused to them in the time of their creation

No, it hasn’t. Ya’ll keep asserting it, but without any rationale (other than “gee, it just must be so”)…!

therefore the fallen Angels couldn’t possibly be in side of God.

Not sure what this means…

 

[STT]

Again, that wasn’t a decision – it was an act of the will. They either acted to be in union with God or to separate themselves from God. Not a ‘decision’ – just an ‘act’.

I think you need to tell me what an act of will is and what is its difference with decision.

You haven’t demonstrated any sort of “angelic decision” yet, though.

I think this become clear when you answer the previous comment.

Perfect. From the Bible, then, can you demonstrate any angelic ‘decision’?

I don’t recall anything from Bible but Muslims for example believe that the revelation to Mohammad was mediated by Gabriel.

No, it hasn’t. Ya’ll keep asserting it, but without any rationale (other than “gee, it just must be so”)…!

How they could perform their tasks if the knowledge of their tasks are not infused to them?

Not sure what this means…

Please read post #108.

 

[seagal]

It makes complete sense. Think of one Angel who knows that it would face a set of situations in future. He could choose to be with God or against God at time of his creation. The reality however is not that simple, it is intertwine, therefore the choice of this Angel affects the choice of another one. How? Think of another Angel who is supposed to make its decision too. The situations that it would face however are not free since it is conditioned with the situation and decision of the first Angel.

You have said nothing to support this assertion.

To make the long story short, we need a predefined set of situations for Angels and they should accept or reject God according to the plan otherwise we face with a conflict of decisions.

Again, you have said nothing to support this assertion. Humans are essentially given the same choice – to follow God or not. We don’t know all the possible situations that could arise because of our decision, yet we all make the choice.

 

[Gorgias]

I think you need to tell me what an act of will is and what is its difference with decision.

How about an example?

Let’s say that you want to make a New Year’s resolution. You think about it, ponder your choices, weigh the relative merits, and finally conclude that you will try to avoid junk food and lose weight this year. Congratulations! You’ve exercised your human faculty of ratiocination! You’ve made a decision!

Then, as you walk through the kitchen, you see a package of chocolate chip cookies. You glance at it, but keep on walking. Congratulations! You’ve made an act of the will! No decision-making – just the act of saying “I am gonna do this!”

Angels do the latter; not the former. Humans do both.

I think this become clear when you answer the previous comment.

Nope. Still unanswered. So, let me ask again: do you have any sort of demonstration of an “angelic decision” that you can share with us to help bolster your assertions?

I don’t recall anything from Bible but Muslims for example believe that the revelation to Mohammad was mediated by Gabriel.

So… you base your claim on something that you can’t demonstrate Scripturally? And, rather than use the Bible, you want to turn to the Koran for truth? Umm… :nope:

How they could perform their tasks if the knowledge of their tasks are not infused to them?

One might propose that, if God is sending an angel on a mission, He provides to that angel what it needs to be successful. Not some wild assertion of an all-encompassing foreknowledge to all angels as part of their nature, but rather, simply giving the angel the required direction and/or assistance to fulfill the mission He gives it.

Please read post #108.

Think of one Angel who knows that it would face a set of situations in future.

Angels exist outside of time; they don’t have a ‘future’, just a ‘now’.

He could choose to be with God or against God at time of his creation.

That’s not a ‘future’ event – it’s an act of will that they performed at the beginning of their existence.

The reality however is not that simple, it is intertwine, therefore the choice of this Angel affects the choice of another one. How? Think of another Angel who is supposed to make its decision too. The situations that it would face however are not free since it is conditioned with the situation and decision of the first Angel.

Huh? Not following you. Why does the act of the will – to follow or not follow God – depend on what others are doing? It’s either a “yes, I will serve you” or a “no, I will not serve.” No need to reference the future, there.

What’s happening here, I’m afraid, is that you’re extrapolating from what you know about human nature, and mistakenly anthropomorphizing angelic nature.

To make the long story short, we need a predefined set of situations for Angels and they should accept or reject God according to the plan otherwise we face with a conflict of decisions.

No conflict. No decisions.

 

[STT]

You have said nothing to support this assertion.

Then I have to give you an example. Suppose the first Angel does X in situation Y. Suppose that the outcome of the decision should be good. The second Angel action does either X’ or X’’ in situation Y depending if it chooses to be good or evil Angel respectively. The outcome of situation as the result of Angels’ acts is different, could be good or evil, which is problematic.

 

[STT]

How about an example?

Let’s say that you want to make a New Year’s resolution. You think about it, ponder your choices, weigh the relative merits, and finally conclude that you will try to avoid junk food and lose weight this year. Congratulations! You’ve exercised your human faculty of ratiocination! You’ve made a decision!

Then, as you walk through the kitchen, you see a package of chocolate chip cookies. You glance at it, but keep on walking. Congratulations! You’ve made an act of the will! No decision-making – just the act of saying “I am gonna do this!”

Angels do the latter; not the former. Humans do both.

That I understand but I think that Angels made decision to be in God’s side or against. The rest of their actions however are acts of will.

Nope. Still unanswered. So, let me ask again: do you have any sort of demonstration of an “angelic decision” that you can share with us to help bolster your assertions?

Yes, any Angel made a decision whether to stay with God or leave God. How you can explain this as an act of will?

So… you base your claim on something that you can’t demonstrate Scripturally? And, rather than use the Bible, you want to turn to the Koran for truth? Umm… :nope:

I thought that Catholic agree with Abrahamic religions?

One might propose that, if God is sending an angel on a mission, He provides to that angel what it needs to be successful. Not some wild assertion of an all-encompassing foreknowledge to all angels as part of their nature, but rather, simply giving the angel the required direction and/or assistance to fulfill the mission He gives it.

That is not possible since God wouldn’t possibly give tasks to evil Agnels once they made their decisions. Therefore all task must be infused to them at the time of their creation.

Angels exist outside of time; they don’t have a ‘future’, just a ‘now’.

Are you saying that they perform one eternal act?

That’s not a ‘future’ event – it’s an act of will that they performed at the beginning of their existence.

I don’t agree. They need to make one decision at least. The rest of their acts can be based on act of will.

Huh? Not following you. Why does the act of the will – to follow or not follow God – depend on what others are doing? It’s either a “yes, I will serve you” or a “no, I will not serve.” No need to reference the future, there.

Please read post #113 for more illustration.

What’s happening here, I’m afraid, is that you’re extrapolating from what you know about human nature, and mistakenly anthropomorphizing angelic nature.

I don’t think so. The only trouble that I have is whether Angels make decision whether they want to stay or leave God.

No conflict. No decisions.

I think you misunderstood me.

 

[Gorgias]

Then I have to give you an example. Suppose the first Angel does X in situation Y. Suppose that the outcome of the decision should be good. The second Angel action does either X’ or X’’ in situation Y depending if it chooses to be good or evil Angel respectively. The outcome of situation as the result of Angels’ acts is different, could be good or evil, which is problematic.

Nope. This doesn’t hold up.

Angels exist outside of time. That means that there isn’t a succession of the kind you posit. It’s not like the angels are saying “Gabriel did X yesterday, so I’m gonna do X’ today.” The angels – in eternity – performed an act of the will (to serve God or not); it’s not like they were looking at each other, trying to decide if they liked each others’ actions.

So, your proposal here doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Gorgias]

That I understand but I think that Angels made decision to be in God’s side or against. The rest of their actions however are acts of will.

Interesting assertion. Let’s hear your rationale, then. Why is “I will serve” (or “I will not serve”) not an act of the will?

Yes, any Angel made a decision whether to stay with God or leave God.

Nope, sorry. You need to demonstrate why “I will serve” is a decision – you can’t just assert it as a ‘decision’. Remember – a decision requires ratiocination, and (name removed by moderator)uts upon which to ratiocinate. Show us how you break down the act of the will of “I will serve” as a ‘decision’, given the components of a decision, and we’ll have an opportunity to think about whether it makes sense. All you’re doing here is saying, “nope, it’s a decision”, without any support.

How you can explain this as an act of will?

By the definition of angelic nature, including the fact that they’re pure spirit. (So, if you want to assert something counter to these facts, the burden of proof is on you – you have to prove that your assertions hold up, and not just say “yeah, that’s the way it is.” )

I thought that Catholic agree with Abrahamic religions?

Islam says that God is not a Trinity. It says that Jesus was a prophet, but is not God. Are you really trying to say that you think Catholicism agrees with these assertions?

That is not possible since God wouldn’t possibly give tasks to evil Agnels once they made their decisions. Therefore all task must be infused to them at the time of their creation.

You’re moving the goalposts.

We’re talking about “angelic missions” as they appear in the Bible; therefore, we’re talking about angels, not “fallen angels”. For angels who serve God, my description holds. Once we’re done talking about angels who serve God – if you can provide the examples that were requested – maybe it might make sense to talk about fallen angels. Let’s try out your assertions on angels who follow God, first – and if your proofs hold up, we can talk about demons.

Are you saying that they perform one eternal act?

Now you’re getting it.

I don’t agree. They need to make one decision at least. The rest of their acts can be based on act of will.

Again… let’s get to something that works as a proof, not just “here’s what I think, and you have to accept it because I think it”.

 

[STT]

Nope. This doesn’t hold up.

Angels exist outside of time. That means that there isn’t a succession of the kind you posit. It’s not like the angels are saying “Gabriel did X yesterday, so I’m gonna do X’ today.” The angels – in eternity – performed an act of the will (to serve God or not); it’s not like they were looking at each other, trying to decide if they liked each others’ actions.

So, your proposal here doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

I didn’t say that Angles acts are restricted to time. I said there is a conflict in their act when they align their will with with God or otherwise knowing the fact that a timeless act forks to many temporal acts (X, X’, etc).

 

[STT]

Interesting assertion. Let’s hear your rationale, then. Why is “I will serve” (or “I will not serve”) not an act of the will?

I got the idea from the example you provided.

Nope, sorry. You need to demonstrate why “I will serve” is a decision – you can’t just assert it as a ‘decision’. Remember – a decision requires ratiocination, and (name removed by moderator)uts upon which to ratiocinate. Show us how you break down the act of the will of “I will serve” as a ‘decision’, given the components of a decision, and we’ll have an opportunity to think about whether it makes sense. All you’re doing here is saying, “nope, it’s a decision”, without any support.

Because an Angel can serve God or not. So there are two options in which the Angel has to choose one from. This is my definition of decision. What is your definition of decision?

Islam says that God is not a Trinity. It says that Jesus was a prophet, but is not God. Are you really trying to say that you think Catholicism agrees with these assertions?

I don’t know. There are many conflict within religion and between religions. Do you believe that Mohammad was not a prophet?

You’re moving the goalposts.

We’re talking about “angelic missions” as they appear in the Bible; therefore, we’re talking about angels, not “fallen angels”. For angels who serve God, my description holds. Once we’re done talking about angels who serve God – if you can provide the examples that were requested – maybe it might make sense to talk about fallen angels. Let’s try out your assertions on angels who follow God, first – and if your proofs hold up, we can talk about demons.

There is no problem if all Angels accept the will of God, what is infused to them at the time of their creation. The problems appear when we consider fallen Angels.