Angels

[STT]

The cognitive faculties that require matter, ie, imagination and memory, do not apply to beings with infused knowledge that live in eternity.

They need to think when they need to decide even if their knowledge is infused in eternity.

 

[STT]

No one denies that animals have the ability to learn. But, that doesn’t prove they have an intellect that can understand abstract thoughts.

What I am claiming is that you need the power to reason in order to learn. X leads to Y. That is reasoning. That is what we share with Animals.

 

[seagal]

Physical or nonphysical. Angels must have forms, otherwise they could not think when they need to decide, they couldn’t have different personality (all would be similar), etc.

Angels are pure spirit, non-corporeal. They have form in the sense that they don’t simply flow from one to another like 2 puddles of water, but they don’t have senses or brains. In that way they are like God. Therefore, they don’t think as humans do since they don’t have human bodies.

 

[fisherman_carl]

What I am claiming is that you need the power to reason in order to learn. X leads to Y. That is reasoning. That is what we share with Animals.

Animals can not grasp or contemplate conceptual ideas. In a sense they operate through cause and effect. If this then that. If x happens then y results. A computer operates in much the same way. If x then y. But you would hardly claim that a computer reasons.

 

[STT]

Angels are pure spirit, non-corporeal. They have form in the sense that they don’t simply flow from one to another like 2 puddles of water, but they don’t have senses or brains. In that way they are like God. Therefore, they don’t think as humans do since they don’t have human bodies.

How they could communicate with each other and observe us if they don’t have any senses? They for sure have form. Form however is not possible without stuff, matter in human for example.

 

[STT]

Animals can not grasp or contemplate conceptual ideas. In a sense they operate through cause and effect. If this then that. If x happens then y results. A computer operates in much the same way. If x then y. But you would hardly claim that a computer reasons.

Computer doesn’t learn. It just follows the instruction.

 

[davidv]

Physical or nonphysical. Angels must have forms

True, angels have an angel form.

, otherwise they could not think when they need to decide, they couldn’t have different personality (all would be similar), etc.

Does not follow. All abilities and basic characteristics are determined by form. The forms (in the philosophical sense) of the physical elements determine their characteristics, none of which are decision making nor personality.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Computer doesn’t learn. It just follows the instruction.

Animals are better than computers. Animals are alive. Whereas a computer is not. A computer can in a sense simulate learning. When you type on your phone your phone can suggest certain words to you based on what you did in the past. It gathers information from you based on your past behaviour and uses that to suggest words. The instructions that the computer follows is programmed by a human mind, which does all the thinking ahead of time. And the computer is like the puppet that executes those instructions.

The animals do not use language but experience the world through the senses the raw data and process them. They respond to the raw data as it comes in. When an animal sees a tree it doesn’t think to itself there is a tree. It has no conceptual idea of a tree. It just sees the tree. Only humans create abstractions like languages so that we can say there is a tree or can contemplate the existence of trees. Animals don’t think in terms of language like thinking to themselves if this then that. They instinctively respond to the situation. In a sense they are programmed or it is their nature to respond that way.

 

[STT]

True, angels have an angel form.

Good.

Does not follow. All abilities and basic characteristics are determined by form. The forms (in the philosophical sense) of the physical elements determine their characteristics, none of which are decision making nor personality.

Form in philosopher sense is only more abstract than the physical form or shape.

 

[STT]

Animals are better than computers. Animals are alive. Whereas a computer is not. A computer can in a sense simulate learning. When you type on your phone your phone can suggest certain words to you based on what you did in the past. It gathers information from you based on your past behaviour and uses that to suggest words. The instructions that the computer follows is programmed by a human mind, which does all the thinking ahead of time. And the computer is like the puppet that executes those instructions.

We, Human and Animal, share common ability that allows them to learn specific task true sensory system. Other than that we are pretty similar. We are just more advanced but the basic is same.

The animals do not use language but experience the world through the senses the raw data and process them. They respond to the raw data as it comes in. When an animal sees a tree it doesn’t think to itself there is a tree. It has no conceptual idea of a tree. It just sees the tree. Only humans create abstractions like languages so that we can say there is a tree or can contemplate the existence of trees. Animals don’t think in terms of language like thinking to themselves if this then that. They instinctively respond to the situation. In a sense they are programmed or it is their nature to respond that way.

Of course Animals have sense of what a tree is. Have you ever seen a Lion who chew on a tree thinking that It is food?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Angels know things intuitively. This was made exceedingly clear by seagal at the top of page 3 and by 0_mlly in post # 58 -

The cognitive faculties that require matter, ie, imagination and memory, do not apply to beings with infused knowledge that live in eternity

@ STT : Thanks. I really appreciate this thread, , because the comments posted by our fellow members have made me pause and , um, think..

Human thought is a process - it requires time ; a sequence of moments. Angels are not subject to time though they can act within the parameters of time and space : Gauardian Angels have been given this specific capacity so that they might watch over us.

Regarding decision making : The angels were subjected to a trial. The fallen angels made a decision : Non serviam ! But their decision was one eternal act, and they were fully aware of its consequences. This is why they cannot repent.

I think we humans sometimes unwittingly underestimate the awesome power of an angel, by trying to relegate it’s intellect and confine it within the inferior thought processes of a human being.

 

[STT]

Angels know things intuitively. This was made exceedingly clear by seagal at the top of page 3 and by 0_mlly in post # 58 -

@ STT : Thanks. I really appreciate this thread, , because the comments posted by our fellow members have made me pause and , um, think..

Human thought is a process - it requires time ; a sequence of moments. Angels are not subject to time though they can act within the parameters of time and space : Gauardian Angels have been given this specific capacity so that they might watch over us.

Regarding decision making : The angels were subjected to a trial. The fallen angels made a decision : Non serviam ! But their decision was one eternal act, and they were fully aware of its consequences. This is why they cannot repent.

I think we humans sometimes unwittingly underestimate the awesome power of an angel, by trying to relegate it’s intellect and confine it within the inferior thought processes of a human being.

Angels of course don’t need to think in order to learn as seagal mentioned but they need to think in order to make a choice.

 

[Gorgias]

Thanks for citation.

No problems!

Angels… decide hence they need to think in a specific situation.

Do Angels decide?

How they could decide without changing?

We are mostly interested to understand whether they think when they decide.

My gut feel is that I want to answer “no, they don’t ‘decide’, per se”… but that would be premature. Let me ask you, first: what do you mean by ‘decide’? What’s the process that you’re referencing by the notion of a ‘decision’? I suspect that we’ll be able to answer your question easily once we understand how you define a bit more precisely what it is that you’re asking…

 

[STT]

My gut feel is that I want to answer “no, they don’t ‘decide’, per se”… but that would be premature. Let me ask you, first: what do you mean by ‘decide’? What’s the process that you’re referencing by the notion of a ‘decision’? I suspect that we’ll be able to answer your question easily once we understand how you define a bit more precisely what it is that you’re asking…

By decision I mean choosing an option among a set of options. My problem is that one, whether is Human or Angel, needs to think deliberately in order to choose. That is true that Angels do not think in order to learn new things but they need to think in order to decide.

 

[GEddie]

Please prove this to be true.

---

David

Methinks the burden of proof lies on the other side. Empirically,

–we know that human beings do not think while anaesthetized

–we know that human beings do not think when blood to the head is disrupted

–we know that human beings do not think during a lack of oxygen, or immediately after a head blow

–we know that dead human bodies do not think.

All of these conditions are purely physical.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gorgias]

By decision I mean choosing an option among a set of options. My problem is that one, whether is Human or Angel, needs to think deliberately in order to choose. That is true that Angels do not think in order to learn new things but they need to think in order to decide.

Not to be snarky or facetious, but…

… what kinds of ‘choices’ do you think angels are making?!?

And, if making choices, what’s the process you think they follow?

 

[STT]

Not to be snarky or facetious, but…

… what kinds of ‘choices’ do you think angels are making?!?

Angels for example chose to stay with God or Satan.

And, if making choices, what’s the process you think they follow?

To do this or that. To compare things.

 

[seagal]

To do this or that. To compare things.

From what I’ve been reading and listening to about angels (prompted by this thread ) I don’t think it works that way with angels. They have only one will, to do the will of God. That was the original choice they made and that choice is still their *modus operandi. *They do only what God wants them to do so they don’t have to make a choice between options.

 

[Richca]

We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.

If knowledge is equivalent to matter or bodies, than whence does the idea of pure spirit come from or any immaterial concepts such as truth, beauty, goodness, evil, being, existence? An effect cannot be greater than its cause, or a cause cannot produce an effect which it does not have itself to give. If knowledge is equivalent to bodies or matter as such, then why don’t all bodies think? Do rocks think?

Your conflating form with matter. Forms are immaterial, matter is the material out of which bodies are made. Form and matter are two distinct realities or entities. There are substantial forms and accidental forms. In Aristotle’s ten categories of being, substantial forms and matter belong to the first category of substance. The other nine categories are accidental forms and form is immaterial even the simplest. You seem to be preoccupied with the accidental form of shape. Shape is not matter or body. Shape is an accidental form which gives bodies made out of matter shape. For example, a statue made out of marble has a particular form and shape. Our intellect can distinguish between the form or shape of the statue and the material out of which the statue is made such as the marble. We can also see such as in this case that the form or shape of the statue is inseparable from the matter of the statue just as an impression made in wax is inseparable from the wax.

All knowledge is immaterial. As Aristotle said, 'The stone is not in the soul, but its likeness is." This likeness is a form but its not the substance or the matter of the stone itself in the soul but as is said, its likeness.

God thinks does he not? He has infinite knowledge and an infinite intellect but he is a pure spirit like the angels he created. And all truth and knowledge comes from God who is truth itself. Cannot God create pure spirits like himself with intelligence? Yes, absolutely. God’s knowledge is immaterial in the highest degree as he is himself immaterial even of those material things he has created.

 

[STT]

From what I’ve been reading and listening to about angels (prompted by this thread ) I don’t think it works that way with angels. They have only one will, to do the will of God. That was the original choice they made and that choice is still their *modus operandi. *They do only what God wants them to do so they don’t have to make a choice between options.

How about fallen Angels? They do whatever they want. Even Angels who stayed with God made a choice.

Moreover, what really Angels are? A tool? They don’t even want something since otherwise they have to think that they cannot.