Angels

[1Lord1Faith]

Of course. That is true because intellect is related to neurobiological processes. A person goes to vegetative state once enough damage is made to a part of brain.

So you mean that there is no purpose for brainwaves?

Of course they made intellect. What is the purpose of them otherwise?

Sufficient damage to any part of the body can put someone into a coma or vegetative state.
Brainwaves are for muscle movement, speech, vision, recognition etc.
The consequence of being in a body and learning things like self-control serves to grow the intellect not necessarily make or create it.

 

[Todd977]

We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.

Like angels, God also has no body, is pure spirit, yet he thinks.

 

[STT]

Like angels, God also has no body, is pure spirit, yet he thinks.

First, God doesn’t think. Second, that is not a counter-argument.

 

[STT]

Sufficient damage to any part of the body can put someone into a coma or vegetative state.

That is off topic, so lets put it aside.

Brainwaves are for muscle movement, speech, vision, recognition etc.

We know well that people with Alzheimer lose the power of reasoning once damage made to limbic part of brain.

The consequence of being in a body and learning things like self-control serves to grow the intellect not necessarily make or create it.

We know well that limbic part of brain is responsible for creation of intellect. You can read more about it here.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

That is off topic, so lets put it aside.

We know well that people with Alzheimer lose the power of reasoning once damage made to limbic part of brain.

We know well that limbic part of brain is responsible for creation of intellect. You can read more about it here.

The body definitely affects the intellect because they are locked together until death. No one can point to where the neurobiology ends and the intellect begins; thinking, as we know it to be defined, lies sandwiched somewhere in between.

 

[Vico]

We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.

There are two senses of immaterial – immaterial in the first sense is the sense of not being material principles. In the second sense, immaterial is said of forms that subsist without matter like angels or spiritual substances in general (a.k.a., subsistent forms).

Per St. Thomas Aquinas, the human intellectual soul is incorporeal, immaterial, incorruptible subsistent, and immaterial form in the second sense.

An Angel is incorporeal, immaterial, incorruptible subsistent, and immaterial form in the second sense.

 

[pianistclare]

First, God doesn’t think. Second, that is not a counter-argument.

OK, let’s hear YOUR reason or citation fro this premise.

If you are really “seeking” reading and research is one of the easiest ways to learn.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ANGEL.HTM

 

[Mort_Alz]

Think of an electromagnetic pulse which carry information. This pulse is made of electromagnetic field and has a very specific form otherwise it could be different from other pulse meaning that it cannot carry information. There are tons of example around you in all case information that you receive or produce has very specific form.

Also, thoughts are not physical. So, it is theoretically possible to have them without a body.

 

[Mort_Alz]

That I understand but you cannot resolve the problem by saying that they are different from us. You need to give a specific method in which they could think.

Why? We do not demand the same thing of scientists when they discover something is not quite what we thought it was. Sometimes, we can know something is true without knowing the specifics.

 

[Mort_Alz]

STT, the only thing we know with certainty is that our physical brains CAUSE thinking and the electrochemical events in the brain are CORRELATED with thinking. That is not enough to be able to say that our brain activity is the same as our thoughts. Fire causes smoke, but smoke is not fire; and there are plenty of examples where correlation is not the same as equation. Here’s how we can know that thoughts are not the same as the physical events in the brain: Thoughts can have the property of being true or false. If I think that Saturn has a square orbit, then that thought is false. But the electrochemical brain event associated with that thought is not false. It’s also not true. It just can’t have either of those properties. Now, it can have shape, size, and even speed, but it can’t have truth or falsehood. No merely physical event can have truth or falsehood. If you don’t believe me, try thinking of a physical event that is false. Thus, thoughts have properties that their associated brain activity does not and CANNOT have. And this, btw, does not contradict any of our discoveries in neuroscience.

 

[seagal]

Of course, Angels do think like Human. How otherwise they could make a choice?

What do you base this statement on?

Since you want us to do your research into angels for you, here’s an excerpt from a chapter of the book “The Angels” by Fr. Pascal P. Parente, who apparently has studied angels extensively and written many books on the subject. You can find the chapter in its entirety here (The Angelic Nature and its Operation).

The Angels are commonly called “minds,” “intelligences” by theologians and philosophers. Dionysius calls them “celestial intelligences,” “intellectual beings,” “supercelestial beings,” etc. Exalted knowledge and intelligence are the most outstanding qualities of an Angel according to human standards…

In calling the Angels “minds” and “intelligences” we do not mean to limit the Angelic nature to the intellect but we rather wish to stress the power of the Angelic perception, superior by far to our own both in itself and in its mode of operation. We speak here of the natural knowledge of the Angels, the one which is proportioned to their condition of pure spirits; and we abstract, for the time being, from their present condition of comprehensors in which a Godlike, more sublime knowledge is imparted to them through the light of glory. The natural intelligence of an Angel is common to both the good and the fallen angels, the demons. “Although an Angel’s intellect is not his own substance, just as our intellects are not our own substances, yet he possesses such penetration, that he is able, at one glance, to take in the whole field of science lying open to his perception, just as we, at a glance, can take in the entire field of vision lying exposed to our eyes.”

…The Angelic intellect, entirely free and independent from matter and senses, needs no such development. It is in the full possession of its power from the very beginning of its existence. There is no need of gathering elements of knowledge bit by bit, of adding ideas to ideas in order to discover truth, as is the case with us. Having been created in the full perfection of its nature, the Angelic mind neither develops by gradual growth nor does it suffer any decay; its knowledge does not pass by consecutive steps from the haze of the morning to the splendor of the noonday brightness. From the beginning of its existence it was able to grasp the objects within its own sphere and advert to them without any fatigue in the process, moving in the dazzling light of the purely spiritual world as in its proper element. Its light is not subject to waning into twilight or disappearing into darkness, as is the case, unfortunately, with the human mind in this life.

Being by nature higher than man and much closer to God, the Angels receive more of His light, that is, a greater power of understanding, infused ideas, mind-pictures representing external objects, the spiritual and material creatures of this universe.
The process of Angelic knowing and understanding seems to consist in a placid gazing on these ideas or mind-pictures existing within its intellect from the beginning, actuated either by the Angelic will, or the need of the moment.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I know that Angels are non-corporal beings. I have problem understanding how they could possibly think. Could you please elaborate instead referring me to books?

Thought itself is immaterial.

 

[Gorgias]

I can really read up that as I don’t have enough time. Could you please elaborate or at least give a reference to the page?

Sure. In Part I of his Summa Theologiae, Aquinas deals with angels in questions 50 through 64. Here’s his answer in q.58, Article 3 (“Is the angel’s knowledge discursive?”):

As has often been stated (Article 1; I:55:1), the angels hold that grade among spiritual substances which the heavenly bodies hold among corporeal substances: for Dionysius calls them “heavenly minds” (Article 1; I:55:1). Now, the difference between heavenly and earthly bodies is this, that earthly bodies obtain their last perfection by change and movement: while the heavenly bodies have their last perfection at once from their very nature. So, likewise, the lower, namely,** the human, intellects obtain their perfection in the knowledge of truth by a kind of movement and discursive intellectual operation; that is to say, as they advance from one known thing to another. But, if from the knowledge of a known principle they were straightway to perceive as known all its consequent conclusions, then there would be no discursive process at all. Such is the condition of the angels, because in the truths which they know naturally, they at once behold all things whatsoever that can be known in them.**

Therefore they are called “intellectual beings”: because even with ourselves the things which are instantly grasped by the mind are said to be understood [intelligi]; hence “intellect” is defined as the habit of first principles. But human souls which acquire knowledge of truth by the discursive method are called “rational”; and this comes of the feebleness of their intellectual light. For** if they possessed the fulness of intellectual light, like the angels, then in the first aspect of principles they would at once comprehend their whole range, by perceiving whatever could be reasoned out from them**.

(Emphases mine.)

Therefore, angels do not “think” like humans think – we ratiocinate; they don’t. They have perfect knowledge, so they know without thinking.

That I understand but you cannot resolve the problem by saying that they are different from us. You need to give a specific method in which they could think.

Yes, the problem really is resolved that easily. Aquinas is referencing it in his discussion of “change and movement.” From a philosophical standpoint, anything physical changes. It is exactly this kind of change that gives rise to the notion of thought: we move from one thought to another, and thereby learn. In the process, we change.

However, spiritual beings (e.g., the angels, or God) do not have physical extensions. They do not change. Therefore, they do not “think” in the way we do.

I cannot “give a specific method in which they could think” because they do not think! Rather, they simply know.

 

[STT]

The body definitely affects the intellect because they are locked together until death.

I don’t understand you. You said before: “There are cases of people in vegetative states who still maintain their intellect despite having no detectable brainwaves.” and now you say that body affects the intellect.

No one can point to where the neurobiology ends and the intellect begins; thinking, as we know it to be defined, lies sandwiched somewhere in between.

I think we know a lot. We just don’t know how a neurobiological process yields to thinking.

 

[STT]

OK, let’s hear YOUR reason or citation fro this premise.

That is the definition of Catholic God, pure actuality. Something which is pure actuality doesn’t think since the process of thinking has a beginning/potentiality and end/actuality. Therefore Catholic God doesn’t think.

If you are really “seeking” reading and research is one of the easiest ways to learn.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ANGEL.HTM

Thanks for the link. It however seems that it doesn’t answer my question.

 

[STT]

Also, thoughts are not physical. So, it is theoretically possible to have them without a body.

The source of thoughts are physical. Disturb physical and thoughts will be gone.

 

[davidv]

The source of thoughts are physical. Disturb physical and thoughts will be gone.

Please prove this to be true.

 

[STT]

Why? We do not demand the same thing of scientists when they discover something is not quite what we thought it was. Sometimes, we can know something is true without knowing the specifics.

Well, I am not saying that I know how exactly a neurobiological process leads to thinking. I just make an argument showing that there is a relation between thinking and form. Angels have no form so you need to explain how they in principle could think.

 

[davidv]

Well, I am not saying that I know how exactly a neurobiological process leads to thinking. I just make an argument showing that there is a relation between thinking and form. Angels have no form so you need to explain how they in principle could think.

If they do not think, no explanation is necessary.

 

[STT]

STT, the only thing we know with certainty is that our physical brains CAUSE thinking and the electrochemical events in the brain are CORRELATED with thinking.

That is true in all field of science. There is a correlation between a stone falling and gravity then we deduce that that is gravity which pull down the stone. I don’t understand why people rejects that neurobiological processes leads to thinking.

That is not enough to be able to say that our brain activity is the same as our thoughts. Fire causes smoke, but smoke is not fire; and there are plenty of examples where correlation is not the same as equation. Here’s how we can know that thoughts are not the same as the physical events in the brain: Thoughts can have the property of being true or false. If I think that Saturn has a square orbit, then that thought is false. But the electrochemical brain event associated with that thought is not false. It’s also not true. It just can’t have either of those properties. Now, it can have shape, size, and even speed, but it can’t have truth or falsehood. No merely physical event can have truth or falsehood. If you don’t believe me, try thinking of a physical event that is false. Thus, thoughts have properties that their associated brain activity does not and CANNOT have. And this, btw, does not contradict any of our discoveries in neuroscience.

I didn’t say that neurobiological processes are thoughts. I said that neurobiological processes that leads to thoughts.