We think before we decide. Don’t we? How decision is possible without thinking? Could you please give an example which show otherwise?What do you base this statement on?
Thanks for the citation but that as far as I can tell does not provide an argument in favor of how Angels could think. It however explains the nature of their knowledge.Since you want us to do your research into angels for you, here’s an excerpt from a chapter of the book “The Angels” by Fr. Pascal P. Parente, who apparently has studied angels extensively and written many books on the subject. You can find the chapter in its entirety here (The Angelic Nature and its Operation).
Thanks for citation.Sure. In Part I of his Summa Theologiae, Aquinas deals with angels in questions 50 through 64. Here’s his answer in q.58, Article 3 (“Is the angel’s knowledge discursive?”):
I know that Angels have knowledge of everything therefore they don’t need to gather knowledge as we do by thinking. They however decide hence they need to think in a specific situation.(Emphases mine.)
Therefore, angels do not “think” like humans think – we ratiocinate; they don’t. They have perfect knowledge, so they know without thinking.
Do Angels decide?Yes, the problem really is resolved that easily. Aquinas is referencing it in his discussion of “change and movement.” From a philosophical standpoint, anything physical changes. It is exactly this kind of change that gives rise to the notion of thought: we move from one thought to another, and thereby learn. In the process, we change.
How they could decide without changing?However, spiritual beings (e.g., the angels, or God) do not have physical extensions. They do not change. Therefore, they do not “think” in the way we do.
We are mostly interested to understand whether they think when they decide.I cannot “give a specific method in which they could think” because they do not think! Rather, they simply know.
We know that Limbic part of brain is responsible for reasoning. You can read about this in here.Please prove this to be true.
…Damage to the prefrontal area produces difficulties with abstract reasoning, judgment moods and puzzle solving. The effect of frontal lobe damage on mood depends on the specific part of the prefrontal cortex damaged. The patient’s behavior is often described as tactless…
They need to think when they decide.If they do not think, no explanation is necessary.
They lack the intellect and will. They are primarily sensory creatures. That is they operate materially with no immaterial mind. They operate through instinct. While chimoanUcan be trained to remember certain sign language words they do really know what those words mesn in a sentence. They have no conceptual abilities. They do not know the difference between dog bites man and man bites dog. Yet any small human child in any country will laugh at man bites dog. And you can take any child from one country and stick him in another country and he will learn the language. Whereas animals can not grasp basic sentence structure. They can not make the conceptual links.Physical or nonphysical, it has form otherwise we couldn’t distinguish between different infromations.
What else?
The word bird has to have form also otherwise we couldn’t distinguish it from word human.
It doesn’t have a form that is physically necessary though. This is illustrated by the fact that there are different words for the same bird in different languages. It took an already existing mind to assign the word bird to the bird.
How something which is not made of anything can possibly have a form?
The number 2 is not made of anything yet it exists mathematically.
I don’t think that Angels don’t have any sensory system. How they could possibly interact with each other?
Angels have the power of intellect and will.
I don’t believe that Animals have no intellectual power. Here is an article in this regard.
What if they don’t decide? Or that their decision is based on knowledge, not thinking?They need to think when they decide.
How about this? Do you think that solving a puzzle is possible by following instinct.They lack the intellect and will. They are primarily sensory creatures. That is they operate materially with no immaterial mind. They operate through instinct. While chimoanUcan be trained to remember certain sign language words they do really know what those words mesn in a sentence. They have no conceptual abilities. They do not know the difference between dog bites man and man bites dog. Yet any small human child in any country will laugh at man bites dog. And you can take any child from one country and stick him in another country and he will learn the language. Whereas animals can not grasp basic sentence structure. They can not make the conceptual links.
They apparently do decide. How fall of Angels is possible without decision?What if they don’t decide?
How could a decision be a decision if you know it?Or that their decision is based on knowledge, not thinking?
Sounds like your equating humans to angels. This is not acceptable. Where does your knowledge of angels come from that allow you to make these claims about them?They apparently do decide. How fall of Angels is possible without decision?
How could a decision be a decision if you know it?
I know that they know every instance of creation. They however think when they need to decide and act. They are not God.Sounds like your equating humans to angels. This is not acceptable. Where does your knowledge of angels come from that allow you to make these claims about them?
Physical or nonphysical, it has form otherwise we couldn’t distinguish between different infromations.
It may have a form, but not necessarily a physical form.
What else?
The word bird has to have form also otherwise we couldn’t distinguish it from word human.
It doesn’t have a form that is physically necessary though. This is illustrated by the fact that there are different words for the same bird in different languages that each have their own form but mean the same thing. It took an already existing mind to assign the word bird to a bird.
How something which is not made of anything can possibly have a form?
The number 2 is not made of anything yet it exists mathematically. Abstract objects have no material physical form yet they exist at least in our minds.
I don’t think that Angels don’t have any sensory system. How they could possibly interact with each other?
Angels have the power of intellect and will. Are you saying that the only way for something to interact with something else is through the senses? What makes you think that Angels can not transfer their thoughts or hear God thoughts without having to have ears or a mouth?
I don’t believe that Animals have no intellectual power. Here is an article in this regard.
They lack the intellect and will. They are primarily sensory creatures. That is they operate materially with no immaterial mind. They operate through instinct. While chimpanzees can be trained to remember certain sign language words they don’t really know what those words mean in a sentence. They have no conceptual abilities. They do not know the difference between dog bites man and man bites dog. Yet any small human child in any country will laugh at man bites dog. And you can take any child from one country and stick him in another country and he will learn the language. Whereas animals can not grasp basic sentence structure. They can not make the conceptual links.
They should have a form.It may have a form, but not necessarily a physical form.
We are talking about beings, not abstract objects.It doesn’t have a form that is physically necessary though. This is illustrated by the fact that there are different words for the same bird in different languages that each have their own form but mean the same thing. It took an already existing mind to assign the word bird to a bird.
We are talking about beings, not abstract objects.The number 2 is not made of anything yet it exists mathematically. Abstract objects have no material physical form yet they exist at least in our minds.
We of course don’t need any sensory system to communicate with God but we need a sensory system to interact with each other, hence Angels.Angels have the power of intellect and will. Are you saying that the only way for something to interact with something else is through the senses? What makes you think that Angels can not transfer their thoughts or hear God thoughts without having to have ears or a mouth?
Please explain how you know these things.I know that they know every instance of creation. They however think when they need to decide and act. They are not God.
That is part of Church teaching In regards to Angels. Please follow the link provided in this thread.Please explain how you know these things.
The bird was previously trained on all the objects / stations previously. The only thing that was different they said was the arrangement. The fact that a bird can be trained to retrieve a stick from a box and use it to move an object to get a reward is not a sign of it doing abstract thinking or having an intellect. I could for instance program a robot to do the same thing but that doesn’t mean the robot has intelligence. Everything the bird did can be explained through operations of its senses and brain organ. As it was only dealing with objects in the world, something it is designed to do. It can not deal with non material objects like abstract thoughts because it does not have an immaterial mind. It can not understand language.How about this? Do you think that solving a puzzle is possible by following instinct.
You cannot train an Animal if s/he has no capacity to to learn. The reason has a deep root in learning without that learning is impossible.The bird was previously trained on all the objects / stations previously. The only thing that was different they said was the arrangement. The fact that a bird can be trained to retrieve a stick from a box and use it to move an object to get a reward is not a sign of it doing abstract thinking or having an intellect. I could for instance program a robot to do the same thing but that doesn’t mean the robot has intelligence. Everything the bird did can be explained through operations of its senses and brain organ. As it was only dealing with objects in the world, something it is designed to do. It can not deal with non material objects like abstract thoughts because it does not have an immaterial mind. It can not understand language.
You said:They should have a form.
We are talking about beings, not abstract objects.
We are talking about beings, not abstract objects.
We of course don’t need any sensory system to communicate with God but we need a sensory system to interact with each other, hence Angels.
You said that information has form and therefore angels must have a body. However, the point I am making is that information doesn’t require a physical form. It may have a kind of form in the mind, but it doesn’t need to be materially present. If that wasn’t the case then when you thought about a Giraffe you would need to a have a physical Giraffe in your mind. Instead you have an immaterial form of a Giraffe in your mind. Angels are immaterial minds and therefore can have immaterial thoughts/forms in their minds.We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.
The cognitive faculties that require matter, ie, imagination and memory, do not apply to beings with infused knowledge that live in eternity.We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.
No one denies that animals have the ability to learn. But, that doesn’t prove they have an intellect that can understand abstract thoughts.You cannot train an Animal if s/he has no capacity to to learn. The reason has a deep root in learning without that learning is impossible.
Physical or nonphysical. Angels must have forms, otherwise they could not think when they need to decide, they couldn’t have different personality (all would be similar), etc.You said:
You said that information has form and therefore angels must have a body. However, the point I am making is that information doesn’t require a physical form. It may have a kind of form in the mind, but it doesn’t need to be materially present. If that wasn’t the case then when you thought about a Giraffe you would need to a have a physical Giraffe in your mind. Instead you have an immaterial form of a Giraffe in your mind. Angels are immaterial minds and therefore can have immaterial thoughts/forms in their minds.
You could for instance have a particular triangle in your mind that comes to you through the senses. But, when you consider the form of all triangles in your mind you must use your intellect. You must consider that a triangle must have exactly 3 sides. This is how you can tell that something is a triangle by definition. That is the universal form or what it means to be a triangle. When you grasp that in your mind you grasp all triangles irrelevant of their particular implementation.