Angels

[STT]

If knowledge is equivalent to matter or bodies, than whence does the idea of pure spirit come from or any immaterial concepts such as truth, beauty, goodness, evil, being, existence?

No one knows how matter give rise to a state in which imagination is possible.

An effect cannot be greater than its cause, or a cause cannot produce an effect which it does not have itself to give. If knowledge is equivalent to bodies or matter as such, then why don’t all bodies think? Do rocks think?

Configuration matters.

Your conflating form with matter. Forms are immaterial, matter is the material out of which bodies are made. Form and matter are two distinct realities or entities. There are substantial forms and accidental forms. In Aristotle’s ten categories of being, substantial forms and matter belong to the first category of substance. The other nine categories are accidental forms and form is immaterial even the simplest. You seem to be preoccupied with the accidental form of shape. Shape is not matter or body. Shape is an accidental form which gives bodies made out of matter shape. For example, a statue made out of marble has a particular form and shape. Our intellect can distinguish between the form or shape of the statue and the material out of which the statue is made such as the marble. We can also see such as in this case that the form or shape of the statue is inseparable from the matter of the statue just as an impression made in wax is inseparable from the wax.

I don’t think if I am mixing matter with form. I know the difference.

All knowledge is immaterial. As Aristotle said, 'The stone is not in the soul, but its likeness is." This likeness is a form but its not the substance or the matter of the stone itself in the soul but as is said, its likeness.

I don’t know what likeness means here and I think this is of topic so let please leave it out.

God thinks does he not?

I don’t think that God thinks. That is true because He is pure actuality.

He has infinite knowledge and an infinite intellect but he is a pure spirit like the angels he created. And all truth and knowledge comes from God who is truth itself. Cannot God create pure spirits like himself with intelligence?

What is the use of intelligence when they cannot think and choose?

Yes, absolutely. God’s knowledge is immaterial in the highest degree as he is himself immaterial even of those material things he has created.

This is off topic so let please leave it out.

 

[Gorgias]

Angels for example chose to stay with God or Satan.

Actually, I think we would call that an act of the will, rather than a ‘choice.’ It’s not as if God passed them a note saying “will you serve me? Check ‘yes’ or ‘no’.” Rather, since they have infused knowledge, they exercised their free will: either to serve God or not to.

STT:

Gorgias:

And, if making choices, what’s the process you think they follow?

To do this or that. To compare things.

Umm… let me try the question again. What’s the process that you’re saying that angels use in order to make choices? I’m not asking about the content of the ‘decision’, but the steps that you’re saying that they use in order to reach such a ‘decision’…

 

[Bookcat]

See the Catechism, the Wed’s Audiences of the Popes on Angels, St. Thomas, Peter Kreeft etc

 

[STT]

Actually, I think we would call that an act of the will, rather than a ‘choice.’

Of course act of will is different than choice but it is equal to making a choice.

It’s not as if God passed them a note saying “will you serve me? Check ‘yes’ or ‘no’.” Rather, since they have infused knowledge, they exercised their free will: either to serve God or not to.

That I understand.

Umm… let me try the question again. What’s the process that you’re saying that angels use in order to make choices? I’m not asking about the content of the ‘decision’, but the steps that you’re saying that they use in order to reach such a ‘decision’…

Do you think when you want to make a decision? Of course yes. Conscious decision is a process which requires conscious thoughts. Conscious thought has contents which we could distinguish them well consciously. Given a conscious thought you can make a decision or think further. Why think further? Because you might not be happy with the options, content of conscious thought. You think enough until either you find a new option which satisfies you or find a good reason to make a specific choice.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We believe Angels have no body, pure spirit. We believe that Angels think. Thinking is processing information. Information has form. Therefore Angels needs to have body in order to think. This clearly conflicts with our first belief (Angels have no body). So we are dealing with a problem.

Angels don’t think the way humans do. We move from A to B to C, etc. as we reason our way to a conclusion.

Angels consider something and instantly know by infused knowledge from God all that may be known on that topic.

Or so I have heard.

 

[Randy_Carson]

How about fallen Angels? They do whatever they want. Even Angels who stayed with God made a choice.

When each individual angel was created, he was infused with full knowledge of God and of his (the angel’s purpose) for existence. With full knowledge, he made an instantaneous and irrevocable choice to accept or reject that purpose.

Rejecting God did not give them freedom to do whatever they want. God is still god, and the demons are bound by the authority of Satan, the highest of the fallen angels.

 

[Abba]

For what it’s worth, I agree with you STT. Angels were able to choose and they chose God, while the others, which we call demons now, chose -not God.

I must say, it is an interesting question you pose. I would suggest to consider the functions of spirit as being different from our understanding of how the body works. Just jumping in here, and adding my :twocents: I would consider the ‘knowing’ of the spirit to function somewhat intuitively not necessarily as a mental process. How would understanding a spirit is not only capable of deciding but also of seeing the material world affect your question? Or, that spirits are able to be someplace by merely thinking about it or focusing and traveling in their mind, and then being at the place and maybe even being ‘present’ at more than one place simultaneously as some Saints have been known to be (e.g. Padre Pio and the nun who appeared to the Indians in the USA and evangelized them even though she was in Spain, the Eucharist - although of course, here we speak of God).

A blessed and peaceful New Year 2017 to all in the Philosophy Forum.

Abba

P.s. I think the best info out there on the Angels is by Padre Fortea. There are many videos on Youtube and he has his own Youtube channel but it’s all in Spanish. His books are available for free in aciprensa but only in Spanish. You can purchase them in other languages at Amazon - ebooks are $1.50. I recommend Summa Daemoniaca and the Angels.

 

[Gorgias]

Of course act of will is different than choice but it is equal to making a choice.

Not really. Both result in a course of action, but the process involved in each are different. That’s the important point here – you seem to be equating the processes because both end up in activity. That’s not a reasonable approach.

Do you think when you want to make a decision? Of course yes. Conscious decision is a process which requires conscious thoughts. Conscious thought has contents which we could distinguish them well consciously. Given a conscious thought you can make a decision or think further. Why think further? Because you might not be happy with the options, content of conscious thought. You think enough until either you find a new option which satisfies you or find a good reason to make a specific choice.

Perfect. You have described the ways that humans reach decisions quite well.

However, that’s not how angels operate.

Humans do not come “pre-loaded” with knowledge; we have to gain it on our own. We gain knowledge through experience; we gain experience through sensory (name removed by moderator)ut; we apply our intellect to the sensory (name removed by moderator)ut to learn things. When we make decisions, we use a similar process: we apply past knowledge to current situations, ‘learning’ a decision along the way.

Here’s the thing, though: angels are ‘pre-loaded’ with knowledge. It’s called “infused knowledge”, and God created them that way. Therefore, they don’t need to think in order to take a course of action: they simply know, and then will it.

So, while you and I need to think, and consider options, and decide, angels do not. They simply have acts of will. That’s why this whole question about angels needing bodies in order to ‘think’ doesn’t hold water. They don’t do things like we do. They don’t need to.

And that’s why equating human action with angelic acts of will doesn’t mean that we follow the same processes in order to do so.

 

[grateful_child]

There is a 7-part course on ANGELS given by Deacon Reuben Dykes available from the link below:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14371834#post14371834
(The thread was just opened today and am still in the process of posting the links to the 7 parts.)

I have a couple of objection to content of this talk: (1) Angels can read our mind and heart, how otherwise could know what we are thinking when there is no mode of communication? (based on my experiences they could read our minds in advance)…

I found the content of the talk quite helpful and informative. The following thoughts are taken from this video presentation on Angels: (See especially Episodes 1, 2, 5, 7.)

Angels cannot read our mind and heart; nor can they read them in advance. Why?
Although Angels grasp totally and exhaustively what is to be known about created things, such as how our human nature works, how our emotions work, can access our memory and imagination, they, however,** do not have access to the soul’s higher faculties of intellect and freewill.**

Angels cannot read our mind or heart in advance because we have freewill; they do not know in advance how we are going to decide on issues, since movement of our freewill is dependent on our response to God’s grace. Note that in the** spiritual tradition of the Church, the heart is emphasized in "the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.**” (CCC #368.) Only God, with His grace, has access to the depths of our being (often referred to as our heart.)

If Angels cannot read our mind or heart, how then can they communicate with us? One way is: they have access to our memory and imagination and there, produce images. The video explains how the Angels (including Fallen Angels) can communicate with us.

Also, Angels do not have foreknowledge of the future. Sometimes though, it may appear that they have foreknowledge because they can connect exhaustively “cause and effect” and therefore, when they see something, they can see how it is going toward a certain effect; they can look at things at a much deeper and exhaustive level than we can, and because of the power of their intellect and their deep understanding of “cause and effect,” they can make conjectures about certain things accurately.

 

[grateful_child]

I have a couple of objection to content of this talk: … (2) They need to think even if they have knowledge of everything, how they could act in a specific occasion without thinking?

Moreover this video does not answer the question related to this thread which is about thinking Angels.

How does Philosophy define the action verbs: (1)“to think”, and (2) “to act” or “to choose”? The answer will probably help all of us to answer your question.

From a prayerful listening to the video, I gather that the process of “thinking” is a function of our intellect; and “choice or action ” is a function of our freewill. Once our thinking intellect has processed enough data in order for us to act, what follows then is the movement of our freewill to make a choice.

In the case of Angels, God infused concepts in their intellect which gave them perfect knowledge and understanding of every created thing, enabling them to grasp totally and exhaustively what is to be known about things. Therefore, from the time of their creation, they have had sufficient knowledge for their freewill to move at any given time, i.e. to choose God or to reject Him. No amount of additional thinking by their intellect is needed to enable them to make a choice, because it already provides them with perfect knowledge sufficient for them to make a choice.

 

[STT]

When each individual angel was created, he was infused with full knowledge of God and of his (the angel’s purpose) for existence. With full knowledge, he made an instantaneous and irrevocable choice to accept or reject that purpose.

Do you mean that they were given also the foreknowledge for what they are supposed to do?

Rejecting God did not give them freedom to do whatever they want. God is still god, and the demons are bound by the authority of Satan, the highest of the fallen angels.

That I understand but rejecting God is problematic if they have the foreknowledge of what they were supposed to do since that questions the God’s foreknowledge once they reject God.

 

[STT]

Not really. Both result in a course of action, but the process involved in each are different. That’s the important point here – you seem to be equating the processes because both end up in activity. That’s not a reasonable approach.

Perfect. You have described the ways that humans reach decisions quite well.

However, that’s not how angels operate.

Humans do not come “pre-loaded” with knowledge; we have to gain it on our own. We gain knowledge through experience; we gain experience through sensory (name removed by moderator)ut; we apply our intellect to the sensory (name removed by moderator)ut to learn things. When we make decisions, we use a similar process: we apply past knowledge to current situations, ‘learning’ a decision along the way.

Here’s the thing, though: angels are ‘pre-loaded’ with knowledge. It’s called “infused knowledge”, and God created them that way. Therefore, they don’t need to think in order to take a course of action: they simply know, and then will it.

So, while you and I need to think, and consider options, and decide, angels do not. They simply have acts of will. That’s why this whole question about angels needing bodies in order to ‘think’ doesn’t hold water. They don’t do things like we do. They don’t need to.

And that’s why equating human action with angelic acts of will doesn’t mean that we follow the same processes in order to do so.

Ok. That I understand but that is problematic too. They should have the foreknowledge for what they are supposed to do if they have infused knowledge before they make their decision. There is however a problem here because of those who reject God since the rejection has a conflict with God’s foreknowledge.

 

[STT]

I found the content of the talk quite helpful and informative. The following thoughts are taken from this video presentation on Angels: (See especially Episodes 1, 2, 5, 7.)

Angels cannot read our mind and heart; nor can they read them in advance. Why?
Although Angels grasp totally and exhaustively what is to be known about created things, such as how our human nature works, how our emotions work, can access our memory and imagination, they, however,** do not have access to the soul’s higher faculties of intellect and freewill.**

Angels cannot read our mind or heart in advance because we have freewill; they do not know in advance how we are going to decide on issues, since movement of our freewill is dependent on our response to God’s grace. Note that in the** spiritual tradition of the Church, the heart is emphasized in "the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.**” (CCC #368.) Only God, with His grace, has access to the depths of our being (often referred to as our heart.)

If Angels cannot read our mind or heart, how then can they communicate with us? One way is: they have access to our memory and imagination and there, produce images. The video explains how the Angels (including Fallen Angels) can communicate with us.

Also, Angels do not have foreknowledge of the future. Sometimes though, it may appear that they have foreknowledge because they can connect exhaustively “cause and effect” and therefore, when they see something, they can see how it is going toward a certain effect; they can look at things at a much deeper and exhaustive level than we can, and because of the power of their intellect and their deep understanding of “cause and effect,” they can make conjectures about certain things accurately.

I think that Angels should have the foreknowledge of future since they do only one decision, following will of God or not. This resolve the problem of reading mind in advance too.

 

[STT]

How does Philosophy define the action verbs: (1)“to think”, and (2) “to act” or “to choose”? The answer will probably help all of us to answer your question.

From a prayerful listening to the video, I gather that the process of “thinking” is a function of our intellect; and “choice or action ” is a function of our freewill. Once our thinking intellect has processed enough data in order for us to act, what follows then is the movement of our freewill to make a choice.

In the case of Angels, God infused concepts in their intellect which gave them perfect knowledge and understanding of every created thing, enabling them to grasp totally and exhaustively what is to be known about things. Therefore, from the time of their creation, they have had sufficient knowledge for their freewill to move at any given time, i.e. to choose God or to reject Him. No amount of additional thinking by their intellect is needed to enable them to make a choice, because it already provides them with perfect knowledge sufficient for them to make a choice.

I agree with those definitions. But Angels should have the foreknowledge of what they are supposed to do in the time of accepting or rejecting God since they permanently either stay with God or leave God. Rejecting God means rejecting God’s will which this is against God’s foreknowledge.

 

[Gorgias]

Ok. That I understand but that is problematic too. They should have the foreknowledge for what they are supposed to do if they have infused knowledge before they make their decision.

No. ‘Foreknowledge’ is distinct from – and not implied by – ‘infused knowledge’.

Foreknowledge speaks of a divine prerogative. It speaks of a knowledge of all things, eternal and temporal. It speaks of knowledge not only of creation, but of the uncreated.

The infused knowledge of the angels, on the other hand, is knowledge of the nature of all created things. It does not imply knowledge of all that God knows.

Therefore, there is no implication that angels have foreknowledge. It is not that they “should have” it; nor that they should rely on it in order to move their will.

There is however a problem here because of those who reject God since the rejection has a conflict with God’s foreknowledge.

No, it doesn’t. If angels had foreknowledge, then it would be a problem. They do not. Therefore, although they know all created things in their natures, they do not have God’s “foreknowledge,” and therefore, there is no conflict or problem.

 

[grateful_child]

I think that Angels should have the foreknowledge of future since they do only one decision, following will of God or not. This resolve the problem of reading mind in advance too.

I agree with those definitions. But Angels should have the foreknowledge of what they are supposed to do in the time of accepting or rejecting God since they permanently either stay with God or leave God. Rejecting God means rejecting God’s will which this is against God’s foreknowledge.

God alone has foreknowledge. All creatures, including angels who are creatures, do not have foreknowledge. God did not endow them with this gift.

The following courses will help us understand this: Spiritual Theology, Moral Theology, Philosophy (among others).

 

[cornbread_r2]

If angels can’t read minds, then it seems to follow that prayers to angels must be audible – despite the fact that they don’t have ears.

 

[STT]

No. ‘Foreknowledge’ is distinct from – and not implied by – ‘infused knowledge’.

Foreknowledge speaks of a divine prerogative. It speaks of a knowledge of all things, eternal and temporal. It speaks of knowledge not only of creation, but of the uncreated.

The infused knowledge of the angels, on the other hand, is knowledge of the nature of all created things. It does not imply knowledge of all that God knows.

Therefore, there is no implication that angels have foreknowledge. It is not that they “should have” it; nor that they should rely on it in order to move their will.

No, it doesn’t. If angels had foreknowledge, then it would be a problem. They do not. Therefore, although they know all created things in their natures, they do not have God’s “foreknowledge,” and therefore, there is no conflict or problem.

Angels don’t have body so they could not experience things as we do therefore they should have the knowledge of a situation somehow before they make a decision.

 

[STT]

God alone has foreknowledge. All creatures, including angels who are creatures, do not have foreknowledge. God did not endow them with this gift.

The following courses will help us understand this: Spiritual Theology, Moral Theology, Philosophy (among others).

Angels don’t have body so they could not experience things as we do therefore they should have the knowledge of a situation somehow before they make a decision.

 

[seagal]

Angels don’t have body so they could not experience things as we do therefore they should have the knowledge of a situation somehow before they make a decision.

They do have knowledge – they know us and how our minds work, and judging from our past behaviour they can surmise what our probable future actions will be. But they don’t know the future. That is only for God to know. And when you think about it, angels don’t need to know the future. Their only purpose is to do the will of God, whatever he tells them to do. You asked before (I don’t remember which post) if angels are tools, and the answer is yes. And being tools (or instruments) they don’t need to know what work they will be doing in the future, they only need to know what they’re doing now.

Humans are like angels in that we are also instruments. As creature of God we also live only to do the will of God. That is our only purpose. But since we are not the same kind of beings as angels, we have a different kind of work.