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Roy5
Guest
** You can’t legitimately refer to all Christian splinter groups that are not Catholic as being Protestant.** Are the Eastern Orthodox Protestant? The Mar Thoma Church of India? Were Father Divine and Daddy Grace Protestants? What about 'Rev." Jonesof Jonestown or that group who followed a wacko in Waco? We could go on and on.
** Protestants have to have some ancestral connection to the Reformation. **In addition to the Lutherans and Calvinists (Reformed), there is everything from Unitarian and Quaker to the Salvation Army and the Pentecostalists. The Anglicans tend to identify with Protestantism, though many ‘high church’ Anglicans see themselves as a bridge between Catholicism and Protestantism.
** I have no problem with churches who seek to provide answers to ultimate questions.** Many. maybe most, people need concrete answers. But some of us don’t. We live by faith, assured that God is in charge and he knows the answers - and that’s sufficient. We have trouble with the claim that the only place where we can find the ‘splendor of truth’ is in one church, the Catholic Church. The scriptures, history and science suggest that it’s far more complicated than that.
** God bless everybody. No exceptions.**
** Protestants have to have some ancestral connection to the Reformation. **In addition to the Lutherans and Calvinists (Reformed), there is everything from Unitarian and Quaker to the Salvation Army and the Pentecostalists. The Anglicans tend to identify with Protestantism, though many ‘high church’ Anglicans see themselves as a bridge between Catholicism and Protestantism.
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**Faced with a choice between Catholicism and Protestantism, I find myself attracted to mainstream Protestantism,** the sort that emphasizes freedom of conscience, freedom to weigh different doctrines, freedom to disagree with someone beside you in the church pew without feeling that that person is wrong and I am right. Theology is a huge and complex field, and I suggest that we know only a tiny fraction of the answers to ultimate questions. Now we 'see through a glass darkly'. With a million stars, maybe even a million solar systems, how can we pretend to know very much? How can we assume that God is focusing attention first and foremost on this little planet we call earth?
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**But for those who need a religious authority, and are ready to accept what the church says, whether you are a Catholic or a Mormon, fine**.I certainly don't feel any anger toward the Church. And God bless you. It might be simpler to turn our brains over to an organized religion, but I personally love the freedom to seek and search, to examine and discuss, even perhaps to change my opinion or understanding now and then. I love Bible study groups where - for example - a wide range of opinions are expressed with no one warning: "That''s not what our church teaches!" I'm interested in what different churches may teach but don't feel 'hidebound' by the beliefs of any of them.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
I don’t see your supposed “Irony” in pablope’s statement. Protestantism is not, in and of itself, an ecclesiastical body, it is a plethora of bodies that have been described by a single word. They’re are all over the board as far as their beliefs and doctrines and can not be considered as a whole ecclesiastical body.
To be within the communion of Catholic Church, means that you have accepted the common belief that has been set forth by Christ, Scripture, and the Magisterium of the One Holy Catholic Church - outside of which, there is no salvation. Sedevacantist, Conclavist, and other of the like, have stepped outside the threshold of the Mother Church and can longer be considered Catholic. The same cannot apply to “Protestantism” as it has not one threshold, but tens of thousands, and while you might cross one threshold while leaving one community, you would only cross another threshold to enter another community. The end would be the same, regardless, you would still be a protestant. Of course, unless, that threshold was the Tiber.
Do Mormons consider the FLDS and other rogue sects of the LDS community to be part of your said community?
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
You routinely post contrary statements. Your agenda is clear. In this post everyone just gets along. In other posts your Catholic Church is where people are miserable, liberal, doubt the Eucharist and Protestants have free liberal thinking and Thank God for that…as you say…
I see anti-Catholic Protestants everywhere. I try to avoid them. I have worked with them. I have socialize with them. I cannot ever imagine any Protestant I met that did not think I was prime for conversion…wanting to save me…
I would not say you were aslep or thick headed but you live in another world with all your postings about liberal thinking and the joys of doubt in the Church…You may not see it but when you post and I will say routinely about doubting Catholics…this is a form of anti-Catholicism…
Take it another way…If I said I love Jews and everything I ever wrote about Jews was something negative…someone would wonder if I was anti-semitic…
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Irish_Polock
Guest
You are mistaken, most scholars classify Christianity into three major groupings: Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant. You can refute this if you like, but this is the consensus. So unless you’re Orthodox, you’re protestant if outside of Rome.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
I believe you have an underlying anger and distaste for Catholicism. This is anti-Catholic in my opinion. I took the time to read your postings from the past. You contradict yourself. When it is convenient to say Catholics are bigots and contradict themselves you do. When it is convenient to say that concerning Protestants and getting along you say the opposite. Here are your first few postings from the past…
Since you say you have a mixed heritage and you know the Catholic Faith, I see this as an attack on Mary and is anti-Catholic…
I am amused that I routinely see it convenient for you to find Catholics that agree with you…that does not sway me to see things like you…it is an argument of consensus…so what…
The canon of the Bible as you know from your Catholic understanding is an issue and here you attack the Canon of the Bible. This is anti-Catholic.
I don’t know where you live or why you attend Mass at Churches where you routinely find disheartened Catholics…I see this as anti-Catholic…where is the good news Roy?
Try being an optimist. I will never be convinced of anything you write about your experiences as they only fit your paradigm…what world do you live in?
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Marybeloved
Guest
Isn’t this just a fancy way of saying “I want to do what I want to do and no one tell me nothing***”?*** Didn’t you also claim sometime ago that you do not even consider the Bible itself to a binding authority on you…? I believe how you put it was "not letting it (Bible) or anyone do your thinking for you", a stance that presumes oneself to be in possession of all truth, including divine revelation itself, yet you still consider yourself Christian
. Classic Intellectual dishonesty, IMO.So you may dress it up and call it “living by Faith”, we call it simply an exercise in self-deception stemming from spiritual pride.
Peace.
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AfricanCatholic
Guest
New here. First post on the discussion (if you discountenance my introductory post).
I am a cradle catholic who just “woke up” to the joy of the truth of the Catholic Church. I am thus in such a hurry to make up on lost ground (implication; my bible knowledge and theology are very rudimentary).
Concerning anger towards the Church, my experience has not been so much that of anger or hatred (though I have gotten that a couple of times) but more of a sneering, self righteous, patronizing attitude towards Catholics. Even supposedly close friends are very quick to mouth off the standard lines:
Catholics don’t read the Bible
Catholics worship Mary
Catholics worship idols and images
Another oft used expression:
I was once a Catholic and know everything about the church…
My normal response is to tell them (friends) to go easy on the liquor.
And Roy5 please don’t take offense at this, but are you a Catholic? By Catholic I mean any of the Churches (I hear there are 23 rites) in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.
I am a cradle catholic who just “woke up” to the joy of the truth of the Catholic Church. I am thus in such a hurry to make up on lost ground (implication; my bible knowledge and theology are very rudimentary).
Concerning anger towards the Church, my experience has not been so much that of anger or hatred (though I have gotten that a couple of times) but more of a sneering, self righteous, patronizing attitude towards Catholics. Even supposedly close friends are very quick to mouth off the standard lines:
Catholics don’t read the Bible
Catholics worship Mary
Catholics worship idols and images
Another oft used expression:
I was once a Catholic and know everything about the church…
My normal response is to tell them (friends) to go easy on the liquor.
And Roy5 please don’t take offense at this, but are you a Catholic? By Catholic I mean any of the Churches (I hear there are 23 rites) in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.
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jmoneyideas
Guest
Maybe I was a little off in generalizing the word Anger, more of a Distaste should have been better to bring the conversation into the whole scheme of things. The Clip I watched of the Pastor Smashing the Statue was hate and anger filled. I think I am maybe a little hyper sensitive to this issue since I am new to the Church and feel nothing but Love from those there. Its kinda like someone is picking on my own family when I see stuff like that.
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Nicea325
Guest
Roy:
Well that is nice,but to bad you are wrong again about Catholics. What makes you believe the CC forbids people from using their brain for anything…and I mean anything? You obviously have a twisted view of Catholicism. Protestanism is also loaded with reletavism and secularism,but I am sure you aware of it-right?
What on earth are you talking about here? Your mind is all over the place.
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jmoneyideas
Guest
I agree with you…
Roy my brother in Christ I hope, where were you going with this comment:shrug:
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Nicea325
Guest
I am afraid Roy has a collection of beliefs and ideas, bunches them all up, and assumes it applies to Catholicism and Christianity?
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Roy5
Guest
** Okay. I presume I become a bit aggressive because I tire of the constant proclamation by the Church (not by many Catholics I know) that there is only one true path, one true church, and all the rest are wrong**. Somehow that strikes me as arrogance. lack of humility, pride. Over the years I have come to believe that the universe is much too complex for any church to claim infallibility. And, true, I don’t accept the Bible literally. That is a form of Protestantism that also claims to preach the full and only truth.
**
It actually started rather young when I doubted that God, that loving, forgiving God, would actually drown all those people (including children plus animals) as related in the story of Noah.** Many other problems developed as I became increasingly familiar with the Bible. I recall actually laughing - a shocked laughter - when I first read the story how God had two she-bears maul 42 young people because they made fun of Elisha’s bald head. Give me a break! And as I became a strong peace advocate, how could I celebrate that “Saul has killed his thousands but David has killed his ten thousands”!. I view that as the antithesis of Christ’s teaching that we love one another. “Ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemy, but I say unto you…”
** Then you have Moses, who wrote the first five books of the Bible (allegedly), in which he is called the meekest man on earth and his death and burial are recorded.** I doubt that our loving God would also send the angel of death to kill the first-born in every Egyptian home. Lies? Not really. Traditions. Like Washington could not tell a lie.
** My insistence on thinking for myself is dismissed as egotism, of course, or maybe rebelliousness.** If I had the privilege to be a Catholic and believe or disbelieve in such doctrines as the sinless life of Mary, transubstantiation, and some miracles atrributed to various saints I could be a Catholic. The Church does wonderful work in so many areas. So many of the fine priests deserve our admiration along with sisters and various other devoted souls. Or, can a good Catholic practice birth control - artificial as it’s called - when he and his wife have a family the size they feel they can support and educate? The Church says no. What sort of freedom is that?
** I engage others here on CAF because I feel a need to suggest to ardent Catholics that Catholicism would benefit from permitting more freedom when it comes to belief - and in other ways, too. ** We are in an educated age, when people are not as likely to believe what they are told, especially when so much of it may seem unreasonable to them. I say the same about fundamentalist Protestantism. It also demands conformity. Am I too open-minded? Probably many think so. That’s where we seem to part company. I have found that mainline Protestantism generally permits a breadth when it comes to doctrine. It allows, respects and even encourages independent study and thinking.
** If you consider this anti-Catholicism, I’m sorry**. If I didn’t have concern for Catholicism, the faith of my fathers (literally), I wouldn’t devote time to this dialogue. I appreciate the fact that my views are permitted here. It keeps giving me hope that someday the Church will permit more freedom when it comes to key matters of thought and practice.
**
It actually started rather young when I doubted that God, that loving, forgiving God, would actually drown all those people (including children plus animals) as related in the story of Noah.** Many other problems developed as I became increasingly familiar with the Bible. I recall actually laughing - a shocked laughter - when I first read the story how God had two she-bears maul 42 young people because they made fun of Elisha’s bald head. Give me a break! And as I became a strong peace advocate, how could I celebrate that “Saul has killed his thousands but David has killed his ten thousands”!. I view that as the antithesis of Christ’s teaching that we love one another. “Ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemy, but I say unto you…”
** Then you have Moses, who wrote the first five books of the Bible (allegedly), in which he is called the meekest man on earth and his death and burial are recorded.** I doubt that our loving God would also send the angel of death to kill the first-born in every Egyptian home. Lies? Not really. Traditions. Like Washington could not tell a lie.
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We could go on and on.** I engage others here on CAF because I feel a need to suggest to ardent Catholics that Catholicism would benefit from permitting more freedom when it comes to belief - and in other ways, too. ** We are in an educated age, when people are not as likely to believe what they are told, especially when so much of it may seem unreasonable to them. I say the same about fundamentalist Protestantism. It also demands conformity. Am I too open-minded? Probably many think so. That’s where we seem to part company. I have found that mainline Protestantism generally permits a breadth when it comes to doctrine. It allows, respects and even encourages independent study and thinking.
** If you consider this anti-Catholicism, I’m sorry**. If I didn’t have concern for Catholicism, the faith of my fathers (literally), I wouldn’t devote time to this dialogue. I appreciate the fact that my views are permitted here. It keeps giving me hope that someday the Church will permit more freedom when it comes to key matters of thought and practice.
**God bless everybody**. I'm sure sincere and devout Catholics as well as fundamentalist Protestants get to heaven (though I don't know all that much about heaven, even as I anticipate eternal life). But I also believe that 'liberal' and/or doubting Christians, Catholics or Protestants, as well as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., will be found in heaven in large numbers. We are not saved by our doctrines or church affiliation but, as Matt. 25 makes clear, by our love of God and of one another. The rest - in my mind - is debatable. Someday we'll know, but I can praise God while waiting.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
You prefer indifference of doctrine compared to unity of doctrine?
Where is the one faith, one baptism one lord the scriptures revealed as being one body in your “independent freedoms of choices” to believe as one choses to believe in every wind of doctrine that comes from man?
Can you explain how this “defined freedom” of yours “suffices the thirst of man’s soul”?
In Catholicism no one person is right, For we are not moved by every wind of doctrine that comes from the mouths of men, but only from the Word of God and Him Incarnate Jesus Christ.
For we all (heaven and earth and under the earth) follow the same doctrines and teachings that Jesus Christ revealed, taught and gave to His Church unchanged these past 2000 years, reveals One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church present in the body of Christ.
Science seeks the answer to the question How? religion or your “huge theology complex field” seeks the answer to the question Why?
In Catholicism these two questions to the How and Why do not contradict one another. For the Catholic (Church) faith places Jesus Christ, the Word of God at the center of both questions.
Colossians 1:15*** He is the image* of the invisible God**,
16** For in him* were created all things in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,**
all things were created through him and for him.
17 **He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together**.
18 He is the head of the body, the church.*
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
19** For in him all the fullness* was pleased to dwell**,
20 and through him to reconcile all things for him,
making peace by the blood of his cross*
through him], whether those on earth or those in heaven.
The more science thirsts for the answers to the How? the more God’s majesty is revealed in His creation.
The more we seek for Truth, the more God will reveal to each will (person) seeking the will of God.
It should be noted here that Science can never elude “faith” because Science moves on faith to make new discoveries into what is already known or revealed by God.
The soul of man thirsts for his creator in Truth, just as the intellect (science) thirsts for knowledge from Truth.
“Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink" Jesus; John 7:37
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bz5
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jmoneyideas
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I understand what your are saying about Open Minded, BUT and its a big but, Being so loosey goosey so to say would cause a foundamental breakdown of the tradition of the Church. Thats is what I find wrong about the Protestantism especially in the USA. I can literally jump from church to church til I find that one church that fits what I believe values should be and that my friend is far from a universal (Catholic) church that Jesus called us to be. Just my 2 cents and I could be wrong.
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bz5
Guest
This I’ll take issue with. I’ve seen many Journey Home episodes. They’re home in the Catholic church, of course they believe it’s true. But one thing I’ve always loved about it and the reason I don’t hesitate to invite my Protestant friends to watch it is that the guests and host are all very charitale. So, so often they say things like “I’m grateful to my wonderful parents and other church members who taught me to love Jesus and the Bible,” or praise the Christian charity they found in their old church group. They point out theological errors, sure, but the tone is always gratefulness that they’ve found the fullness of truth, not that others totally lack it and aren’t Christian.
Truly, you can’t see the difference between Scott Hahn’s love of the church and his strong defense of it and certain megachurch pastors claiming all Catholics are hellbound or in a cult?
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mro
Guest
I don’t have grievances towards the Church… But I have grievances towards several prominent Catholic educators who proclaim to be the model Catholics (please search through the archives via my username and you will see why)…
No Catholic is perfect; that is what I’ve learned and people in authority positions are the ones you should always have extra accountability for no matter what…
Keep your eyes peeled for priests, bishops, cardinals, educators, and anyone else who claims to be a model Catholic…
For all we know they could actually be a blinded pharisee…
No Catholic is perfect; that is what I’ve learned and people in authority positions are the ones you should always have extra accountability for no matter what…
Keep your eyes peeled for priests, bishops, cardinals, educators, and anyone else who claims to be a model Catholic…
For all we know they could actually be a blinded pharisee…
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
It was evident to me in reading your past posts that you have an agenda. In my opinion this statement of yours could be construed as “proselytizing”. This is Catholic Answers. I rarely see you pose a question. Instead I seeing you trying to promote a point of view. If you had a denomination and it were presented as you do then I believe you would be banned.
This is Catholic Answers and if you have not noticed unlike me there are many Catholics that have struggled from one point to another to arrive at being Catholic. There are former Protestants of varying stripes, former athiests, former Mormons and who knows what. I am just a cradle Catholic without much in the way of theologic knowledge, theologic training, or journey to the Catholic Church. I was born into the Church and stayed. I never strayed. I will say that the journey was rigorous and other times lax. Yet I am just a joe in the pews learning what the Church teaches. I doubt you will get anything but what I believe from Catholics that do believe and profess as the Church teaches that there is only one Church and that Church is the OHCAC East and West…are the others wrong…I am not sure that is the proper term…after all Protestants exist because of Catholic teachings…misinformed might be a better term.
This is Catholic Answers…try asking some questions instead of promoting a point of view. I believe you would get farther…I suggest that others read your posts from first to last and aid you in your conflict with what you see in one Catholic proclaiming to be what he believes to be true…
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